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Thread: Interesting sighting and conversation

  1. #1
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Interesting sighting and conversation

    So the other night 3 couples were out for dinner, the restaurant was right next door to a cinema complex. It was a warm night and we were eating outside. One of the women said OMG look and there no more than 20 meters away was a shortish almost bald guy with a very neat trimmed beard and moustache in a red knitted dress. He was wearing no makeup, had a small woman's handbag and plain flats. He was standing casually chatting with some people.

    As you can well imagine the next 15 minutes of conversation was taken up by our sighting. No one at the table knows about Becky, so it was very interesting hearing the views of 3 middle aged women and 2 other guys all of whom have no exposure to our world and I was able to ask some interesting questions very carefully. I am simply restating their views and will only give my opinion at the end.

    Everyone thought he looked ridiculous and the general consensus was that there is nothing wrong with a guy who wants to dress up like a woman and go out in public. They felt that he was mocking trans people and women by wearing the dress with the beard. The view was if you want to go out in public in a dress then shave the beard. They felt that he could have perhaps dressed in more gender neutral clothes and kept the beard, but that not only was he in a dress but a red one at that, almost like look at me.

    All 3 woman agreed that they had no problem with a properly dressed CD/Trans person using the ladies bathroom, but would not feel comfortable with him there. The conversation them veered off talking about crossdressers and Trans people... there is a lot of ignorance out there lol and I had to be very careful to not know too much... ignorance but not negativity I am pleased to say.

    It is quite ironic that I had started a thread about facial hair as I found the topic quite interesting and then I see a guy with a beard and red dress i have to say the belief from the other 5 people that he was mocking trans people and women was interesting.. and I have to agree it wasn't a good look. I fully support people's right to wear what they want when they want, but I can't argue with the logic of my 5 friends either
    Last edited by Becky Blue; 12-29-2016 at 12:01 AM.
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  2. #2
    Member immindy's Avatar
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    Gosh , I am sure this will stir up a number of opinions for sure . Myself , I would agree with your friends I think we need to present as woman as best we can and then it seems people respect us then . My personal experience is that if I present well people respect me. I realize many would disagree with that and people should have the right to dress as they wish . But it is what it is . so yea

  3. #3
    SJW and Proud of It! Christina D's Avatar
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    I think what makes talking about things like this (and, one could argue, gender identity in general) is that unless someone tells you how they identify and how they choose to present that identity, you can't really know. Our own members here are reflective of that. There are certainly many of us here who make it our own personal goals to present as womanly as possible, to ideally be indistinguishable from a GG. However, that's not for everyone. Then, there's the complicated issue of outward presentation versus internal gender identity. I, for one, go for complete passability while knowing and accepting that I am not a woman, but there are plenty of us who do feel that we are women in men's bodies or any of the other combinations that make up the gender spectrum.

    Now, it could be for this individual that you saw that they are a happily cisgendered man who just likes to wear womens clothes, and that's fine. Maybe he doesn't feel the need to pass. Who knows? Answer: only he/her/they do.

    And this brings us to the heart of what makes any non-standard gender identity laws, policies, and even individual perceptions so difficult to face: the fact that one stranger cannot know another stranger's "intentions." I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about the current bathroom laws situation, but I feel compellef to bring it up as an example of this. What many opponents (even those who would say that they have nothing against transfolk) of transfolk using the bathroom that matches their gender identity say is that if someone who cannot pass as a man or woman enters the bathroom, how can others be sure they aren't going to do anything lewd or harmful to others? Who knows if they "really identify" as a man or woman? Answer: only him/her/they can.

  4. #4
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    I would quietly celebrate that all five of your companions validated and accepted a transgender person (of whatever degree) publicly presenting as close as can be to a convincing woman. It seems that what bugged them was the gender twist, the visual and conceptual clash of unshaved facial hair and so stereotypically feminine a garment as a red dress. The bearded lady is a classic circus freak, after all.

    It would follow from this experience that at least your present company wouldn't have a negative reaction to someone such as, well, yourself, presenting your best efforts publicly. Assuming your friends are fairly typical of your local demographic, I would feel reassured that a terrible reaction would not be the likely result of an outing en femme. In other words, if your whole group was that overtly tolerant, your community environment is above average in my experience.
    Last edited by Shelly Preston; 12-29-2016 at 09:13 AM. Reason: Language

  5. #5
    Rachel Rachelakld's Avatar
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    Seen a few in the city with what to me is a 4 month beard and a dress.
    One had her girlfriend with her and was trying on platform shoes, very girlie girl.
    The other came across as gruff manly man so I doubt anyone would challenge him.
    Both seemed happy
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  6. #6
    Member Lucy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky Blue View Post
    They felt that he was mocking trans people and women by wearing the dress with the beard. The view was if you want to go out in public in a dress then shave the beard.
    Did you ask why they felt that way? I think I get why the conclusion, but as Christina pointed out, we don't know his intentions. And while I agree that the beard makes it even more stranger, would they felt the same way had he shaved? He has still a man in a dress.

    Last summer I saw two young men wearing women's dress where I live. One was wearing what could be described as "little white dress" and heavy boots and was surrounded with bunch of English speaking alcohol drinking loud mouths (English is not my native language). He had no beard, and I guess he was having a stag party. The other one wore what seemed like a horribly cut air hostess' uniform, again surrounded by bunch of other guys. This is what I would call mockery of trans people.

  7. #7
    Feminaut Julie MA's Avatar
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    Complex topic and I am still trying to figure out all of this. But seems many of us strive to pass, because we respect the all feminine look. Some don't. If we want CD and Trans acceptance it should be for everyone throughout the genger spectrum. I know society is far from that, but we have made rapid progress of late.

    This comment is not about the bathroom choice/rights issue, per se. But, why is it some assume a CD or Trans person is going to do something lewd or abuse someone else in a bathroom? Especially if they appear to be intentionally non-passable? Arent most sexual assaults perpetrated by cisgender men, in men's clothes?

  8. #8
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    You had a conversation with five "normal" people (as far as you know). You got a taste of the real world and the opinions of non crossdressers and non transsexuals. That's good. It helps to hear how these people feel about us.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Nikkilovesdresses's Avatar
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    If your friends saw a bearded man in a dress every day they'd cease to notice. It's the unusualness that struck them, as much as anything. What seems odd to me is that they then spent time as a group digesting and reacting to this thing they'd seen - how narrow their thinking must be, given that these are the same people who have watched planes flying into skyscrapers, terrorists beheading their fellow citizens, mankind landing on the moon, etc, etc- you'd think they'd take such a small innocent thing as a bearded man in a dress in their stride...
    I used to have a short attention spa

  10. #10
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    .......... you'd think they'd take such a small innocent thing as a bearded man in a dress in their stride
    Nope. They saw something unusual and had a conversation about it. That's pretty normal. If a clown had walked by, they probably would have had a conversation about that. If a woman had walked by in a bikini, they would have had a conversation about that.
    Last edited by Krisi; 12-29-2016 at 11:41 AM.

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    I agree with both Nikki and Krisi. A man with a beard has as much right to wear a dress as anyone. I always go back to Eddie Izzard a great example. I wear a beard and a dress and lack the confidence (in myself And in society) to do it publicly. But I will also say, if I did go out publicly dressed that way I'd use the men's room.

  12. #12
    Gold Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    I'm old enough to remember when seeing someone from elsewhere, i.e. the West Indies or India/Pakistan would initiate significant discussion as it was something new, a novelty, some saw it as threatening. It was the unusual, the unknown. Man in a dress in a public situation is the same. If men in dresses, with or without beards became commonplace then it would cease to be an issue to all but a few die hard bigots.

    Here's the difference. Men in dresses isn't likely to become commonplace anytime soon. Also people who see a CD'er fully dressed, wig, makeup the full monty have an existing reference point, it's a man dressing and presenting as a female. They don't have the same anchor when presented with someone male dressed in female clothes but not attempting to present as female. In their mind they can't answer the question "Why?".
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky Blue View Post
    ...Everyone thought he looked ridiculous and the general consensus was that there is nothing wrong with a guy who wants to dress up like a woman and go out in public. ...
    What this says to me is that the expected image and the actual image were too far disconnected for the average person to embrace.

    This has nothing to do with one's right to wear what they want, and everything to do with the reasonable reaction of the average person to expected norms.

  14. #14
    Member Shayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krisi View Post
    Nope. They saw something unusual and had a conversation about it. That's pretty normal. If a clown had walked by, they probably would have had a conversation about that. If a woman had walked by in a bikini, they would have had a conversation about that.
    Completely agree with this. The other night, me and my wife saw a D-list celebrity from the 80's around LA who drives around heavily made up in a pink corvette. We talked about her the whole night because it was out of the ordinary. There's also a guy who walks around the Hollywood area dressed as Jesus and I've had several conversations with people about him.

    That being said, if he wants to have a beard and wear a dress I've got no problem with it. Just someone being who they are, even if it is out of the ordinary.

  15. #15
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    As expected a lot of interesting responses... many of us only get to talk about the whole CD/TG topic with each other or with SO's family or friends we have shared with. For me this was a unique opportunity to discuss crossdressing with 5 people with no agenda.

    Let me say that all of us here are inherently biased, we have way more knowledge than the average person out there. I also wanted to be clear that this person was not unshaven, he had a very neatly trimmed beard and moustache.

    Christina, there is a huge difference between someone trying to pass and perhaps not succeeding and wearing a dress with a beard and moustache. I think the person we saw had very clear intentions.

    Acastina, yes it was very heartening that they all seemed to think that a guy presenting as a woman was acceptable, but it was more than a circus freak they felt it was mocking.

    Lucy, I could not ask directly as that could have raised suspicions, but one comment which gained general agreement was that a beard and moustache are something only a male can have so why bother to present with a red dress and such a uniquely male face, if not to mock?

    Julie, the women were not concerned about sexual assault in the ladies room, a male sexual predator could just walk in, why the need to frock up? they said they would feel uncomfortable with a guy in a dress who is so obviously not trying to look female.

    Nikki, firstly I disagree what got to them was the fact that someone had chosen to wear a dress (red one too.. as in look at me in bright colours) with facial hair. Secondly if we spent all our time discussing serious matters only the world would be a very unhappy place... I think the fact that 5 (plus me) relatively normal educated intelligent people spent 15 minutes talking about crossdressing and transgender in a mostly positive way is makes the world a better place than talking about beheadings.

    Krisi, well said, except not so sure about the bikini it was close to 100f at 8pm

    Penton and others no one said he doesn't have the right to do what he did, it is within the law in Australia, but just because he has the right doesn't mean what he was doing was necessarily good for our community.

    Jennifer, could not have put it better myself.

    I believe that CD/Trans people are well down the road to more acceptance, I do think that we have a responsibility to assist ordinary people to accept us as normal, going out as a half male half female in my opinion is not helping, as it can encourage people to think freak!!
    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

  16. #16
    I am me! TrishaTX's Avatar
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    a couple of thoughts..

    Certainly anyone can wear anything, but optically we are trained a certain way to accept things, so it does look odd(I have seen a few CDs that have beards)...still their right but odd.we want people to present in a way we are used to, even a a manly man dresses in women's clothes, we would hope they shave, makeup etc...

    The best part of this was the people at your table were talking about it, somewhat accepting and were not disgusted , we have come a longer way then we think sometimes...
    No regrets except I should have got dressed & stepped out sooner.

  17. #17
    Member Lucy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky Blue View Post
    Acastina, yes it was very heartening that they all seemed to think that a guy presenting as a woman was acceptable, but it was more than a circus freak they felt it was mocking.

    Lucy, I could not ask directly as that could have raised suspicions, but one comment which gained general agreement was that a beard and moustache are something only a male can have so why bother to present with a red dress and such a uniquely male face, if not to mock?

    Jennifer, could not have put it better myself.

    I believe that CD/Trans people are well down the road to more acceptance, I do think that we have a responsibility to assist ordinary people to accept us as normal, going out as a half male half female in my opinion is not helping, as it can encourage people to think freak!!
    Becky, I agree that a combination of a red dress and a beard is something that is hard not to take notice of, and could be described as a circus freak. A bearded woman in a circus is trope, after all. Maybe as was pointed out that had he worn a more subtle or unisex clothing he wouldn't have garnered much attention.

    Still, I just can't wrap my head around as to his supposed intentions to mock the community. Did he wear obviously fake breasts or at least trying to emulate a female figure? Did he make any obvious or exaggerated feminine gestures? That would, at least for me, be a sign that he was making a mockery of the community. You see, you say that a moustache or a beard for that matter is male trait and many men, myself included, are proud of it (I maintain stubble); I guess the same can be said about women and breasts for example. But I think a red dress is something only associated with women, not their trait in the way breasts are. See where I'm going with this? There I cannot agree with the half-male half-female address.

    And of course that I agree that we have the responsibility to present in a certain way. And although I must admit that I love wearing bras (still figuring out why) but at the same time I have no intention to either pass or present as a woman. Trying to pass is one of those ways to help understand us, but that wouldn't do much for me.

    You see, I love wearing women's clothes, but that's where it ends. For me it would be more in the way of wearing as respectable clothing as I can, as in a business dress with heels to work, or if I opt for a miniskirt I would wear ballet flats and not heels.

  18. #18
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy23 View Post
    Still, I just can't wrap my head around as to his supposed intentions to mock the community. Did he wear obviously fake breasts or at least trying to emulate a female figure? Did he make any obvious or exaggerated feminine gestures?
    Lucy, I am reporting what 5 middle aged intelligent reasonably open minded people who have no known exposure to our community discussed. I think they felt it was more disrespectful to woman than the Trans community. Perhaps the women felt that if he wanted to wear 'their clothes' then perhaps he shouldn't have such obvious male face signage. He was not doing anything obvious, but besides the dress he had on plain black woman's flats and a small over the shoulder woman's handbag too.

    To reiterate no one said he didn't have to right to dress anyway he wanted to, but in the same vein people have the right to think eww not a good look.

    Lucy question for you.. do you go out dressed?
    Last edited by Becky Blue; 12-30-2016 at 07:35 AM.
    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

  19. #19
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    I never understood the "man in a dress" thing but several members here do it so it's not unique. I do think the general public associates this behavior with being some sort of a pervert even if it's not true. I'm not defending them, just telling it like it is.

    I remember a post on this forum a few years back. It was titled something like "I think I scarred him for life". The poster had put on a skirt and gone to a fast food restaurant, stood in like and when he got to the counter where a young teenage boy was working, he started a conversation about his skirt and asked the boy if he wanted to see what was under the skirt.

    The poster seemed proud of what he did, proud enough to brag about it on this forum. To me, that's the definition of a pervert and a good reason for the public to think a man in a dress or skirt must be one.

    For those members who do the man in in a dress thing, I'm not trying to insult you, just relating a real incident.

  20. #20
    Member HelenR2's Avatar
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    A few years ago I would have thought 'A dress..... and a beard? No way buster'.
    Now I would more likely think 'That dress.... with those shoes? No way buster'.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  21. #21
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    Becky,
    I am with you on this, let others be if they want to present that way.

    I would not associate with them as I prefer to dress to conform with a womans style of dress.

    Beard and bald head is for others. I would interact with them but I am unlikely to join their social group.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

  22. #22
    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    I get this BS constantly! That I'm NOT a good representative of the "community"!

    I get it quite often from T's because I wear a mask.

    I get it from maskers because I'm not into masking, rubber, or exaggerated fem looks.

    I get it from vanillas because I can't pass.

    But, I've never said I represent anyone but myself! Why would anyone say someone they don't know is a bad representative when they know nothing about that person?

    Do u think every fat, sloppy, rude vanilla person u meet is a "bad representative" of their community? Of course not! Because they never claim to be one!

    So, why assume every person that isn't a vanilla, but maybe a bit different from u, is trying to represent their community? It smacks of discrimination to me! Why can't u simply say u DON'T LIKE THE WAY THEY LOOK!? And, let it go at that?

    I could live with that!
    Last edited by docrobbysherry; 12-30-2016 at 12:58 PM.
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  23. #23
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    It may not be fair, but we do represent our group. If someone sees a crossdresser, they attribute their behavior to all of us. Like it or not, that's the way it is. You can say you don't represent a group but in stranger's minds you do. You can't change that.

  24. #24
    formerly: aBoyNamedSue IamWren's Avatar
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    Over in the TG/non-binary board there was a thread about presentation and someone had mentioned these two folks who are supposedly well known in non-binary circles.
    Jacob Tobia
    Elliot Alexander

    The photos of Jacob, especially with his stubble, leg hair and quite masculine facial features looks like what I imagine the person Becky and her friends saw. It certainly goes against typical social norms and conventions. It's a brave new world in gender bending and presentation. There really is no way to know if the bearded person in red was deliberately trying to mock transgender folks or not without having a conversation with him/her/them.
    I am not a woman nor am I a man... I am an enby. Hi, I am Wren.

  25. #25
    SJW and Proud of It! Christina D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky Blue View Post
    Christina, there is a huge difference between someone trying to pass and perhaps not succeeding and wearing a dress with a beard and moustache. I think the person we saw had very clear intentions.
    Oh for sure, I don't doubt at all that he/she/they have and know their intentions. The point I was trying to make is that OTHERS are likely to assume what those intentions are without knowing that person at all.

    It seems to me that there's an irony to how gender is being reevaluated by our society right now. Until recently, only a minority of people could accept and understand the concept of anything outside of binary genders; men were men and women were women with clear social expectations, norms, etc. These days, although there's still a lot of progress to be made, more members of our society are willing to accept LGBTQ identities, but the irony is that for many of them to accept it, there's still boundaries or criteria to be met. So, in short, there's more acceptance, but that acceptance still comes with expectations.

    In other words (and yes, I know I'm assuming a lot here), these friends and others like them expect that a MTF crossdresser should be meeting these new standards. Like, "Well, if you're going to crossdress/be trans/whatever, at least do it right. Put some effort into it."
    Last edited by Christina D; 12-30-2016 at 01:17 PM.
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