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Thread: Interesting sighting and conversation

  1. #26
    formerly: aBoyNamedSue IamWren's Avatar
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    In other words (and yes, I know I'm assuming a lot here), these friends and others like them expect that a MTF crossdresser should be meeting these new standards. Like, "Well, if you're going to crossdress/be trans/whatever, at least do it right. Put some effort into it."

    It's coincidental you say that Christina because in that TG/non-binary thread I mentioned I gave this comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by aBoyNamedSue View Post
    ..... I don't like the look they're presenting personally. I think there is a fine line between presenting genderqueer or androgynous and looking like a beginner CDer or drag queen who doesn't have the good sense to put on a wig, wear forms/padding or shave your legs. I don't like those looks at all.
    I still stand by that statement. I don't like that look but perhaps, like much of society, I still have some personal growth to achieve.
    I am not a woman nor am I a man... I am an enby. Hi, I am Wren.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Abbey11's Avatar
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    What about conchita wurst, she obviously puts some effort into her look and she has a beard
    OMG!! Owning my femininity .... and I LOVE it!

  3. #28
    SJW and Proud of It! Christina D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aBoyNamedSue View Post
    I still stand by that statement. I don't like that look but perhaps, like much of society, I still have some personal growth to achieve.
    Yeah, I hear you Sue. As much as I'm a bit ashamed to admit it, I don't care for that look either. I know I would never feel comfortable doing it myself. I want to look like as much of a GG as possible, even it's a 10 minute trip to the grocery store.

    However, I know that that's just me. Who am I or anyone else--be they cis, trans, agender, genderfluid, whatever--to say "Hey, you're presenting your gender identity wrong!"
    "I'm just a girl, what's my destiny?/What I've succumbed to is making me numb/Oh I'm just a girl, my apologies/What I've become is so burdensome/Oh I'm just a girl, lucky me/Twiddle-dum there's no comparison" - "Just a Girl" by No Doubt

    "The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates

  4. #29
    formerly: aBoyNamedSue IamWren's Avatar
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    well here's the rub, fly in the ointment or you're saying of choice that speaks to that last question about who are we to say you're doing it wrong. I think transpersons have the most skin in the game.

    With transgender folks getting more attention in the past couple of years than ever before, many every day Joe's and Jane's will most likely equate genderqueers, CDers, non-binary folks, gender nonconformists and the like as being transsexual persons. So by association we (CDers, non-binary, genderqueers) ARE representatives of transsexuals whether we like it or not or don't want to believe it. Our actions and presentations effect how society in general view and react to transsexual persons which has very real personally affecting outcomes (i.e public policy, violence, discrimination, etc)

    I don't know if I'm getting my point across very well. I guess what I'm trying to say is the general public is for the most part ignorant of transgender issues and gender spectrum and most of what they know comes from discussions that came about when Caitlyn Jenner got her notoriety.
    I am not a woman nor am I a man... I am an enby. Hi, I am Wren.

  5. #30
    SJW and Proud of It! Christina D's Avatar
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    Your point is very well taken, Sue. Referring to your last point in particular, I'm reminded of something my mother said just a couple of weeks ago. Please don't hate my mother for this or assume this is how I think:

    "I mean, if someone who looked like Caitlyn Jenner walked into a bathroom with me, I'd be fine with that. I probably wouldn't even notice she's not a woman. But if someone like Mike (my mom's boyfriend, who's a very "manly man" with a rugged beard, wears heavy boots, is very muscular, etc.) walked in wearing a Cher wig and claimed to be a woman, I would be very uncomfortable."
    "I'm just a girl, what's my destiny?/What I've succumbed to is making me numb/Oh I'm just a girl, my apologies/What I've become is so burdensome/Oh I'm just a girl, lucky me/Twiddle-dum there's no comparison" - "Just a Girl" by No Doubt

    "The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates

  6. #31
    Member Lucy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky Blue View Post
    Lucy, I am reporting what 5 middle aged intelligent reasonably open minded people who have no known exposure to our community discussed. I think they felt it was more disrespectful to woman than the Trans community. Perhaps the women felt that if he wanted to wear 'their clothes' then perhaps he shouldn't have such obvious male face signage. He was not doing anything obvious, but besides the dress he had on plain black woman's flats and a small over the shoulder woman's handbag too.

    Lucy question for you.. do you go out dressed?
    I guess there are too many unknowns to be sure.

    To answer your question, no, I don't go out dressed. Probably because what Krisi later mentioned about how a man in a dress could be seen and the incident in a fast food restaurant (not that I would do the same), and what Sue posted about Jacob Tobia.

    I realize that going out like Jacob (minus the make-up for me, but the style in the article is similar to mine) would be far too over the line where I live and would not only garner really bad public reactions, I would risk much more (and I'm not talking about a fight, that I can handle). To make a pun on Sue's wordplay, it would be more of a "brave new planet". Not to mention Conchita Wurst; if she is anything to go by, many people here would not be accepting of a man dressed like that; if he is making some sort of fun, that might a different story.

    However, I think being out completely en femme would be more acceptable. But then what should I do if I'm not really into wigs and make-up, giving up time to learn the skill least of all? Try it in spite of that and see where it leads me?

    I guess I'm in the minority with this; but I am interested in learning this - could you please elaborate on why do you think looking more like a woman would be the way to go? Or, as in what Christina said, Well, if you're going to crossdress/be trans/whatever, at least do it right. Put some effort into it.
    Last edited by Lucy23; 12-30-2016 at 07:42 PM.

  7. #32
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    Lucy, regarding the "looking more like a woman" as the way to go, I'll refer back to my original respond to this thread. It's about shock value. A man wearing women's clothes but bearded and clearly presenting male is MORE shocking to the general public than a man dressed in women's clothes presenting female. BOTH are weird to the general public but one is more weird based on expectations with which we have all grown up.
    Last edited by Jenniferathome; 12-31-2016 at 11:37 AM. Reason: spelling/grammer

  8. #33
    Aspiring Member MelanieAnne's Avatar
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    A man wearing a red dress and flats, with a beard and no makeup is either mocking crossdressers and trans people, or trying to provoke a reaction from observers, or both. And I don't need to have a conversation with them to figure it out. And someone doing that does us no favors.

    With transgender folks getting more attention in the past couple of years than ever before, many every day Joe's and Jane's will most likely equate genderqueers, CDers, non-binary folks, gender nonconformists and the like as being transsexual persons.
    That's a good point. With all the media attention to gender issues and the LGBT crowd, this likely could be blowback from Joe Sixpack, who is tired of hearing about it.
    Last edited by MelanieAnne; 12-30-2016 at 10:17 PM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenniferathome View Post
    Lucy, regarding the "looking more like a woman" as the way to go, I'll refer back to my original respond to this thread. It's about shock value. A man wearing women's clothes but neared and clearly presenting male is MORE shocking to the general public than a man dressed in women's clothes presenting female. BOTH are weird to the general public but one is more weird based on expectations with which we have all grown up.
    I assume that was supposed to be "bearded".

    I think that's exactly why a man would go out in public in women's clothing but clearly as a man, with possibly a beard and bald head: shock value. To call attention to himself and to shock other people. It's a way to attract attention to yourself. Sometimes we get tired of being just a face in the crowd and want to be noticed.

  10. #35
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    Yes, "bearded" but no, not only for shock value. This person may simply like wearing women's clothes. In other words, a cross dresser! There are several members here who do not present as female but wear women's clothing because they like it. And contrary to a statement above, they are not mocking anyone.

    My point about shock value is that it is simply MORE shocking to the viewer to see something that is most different from expectation.

  11. #36
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    So I'm the only one who has ever seen a bald guy in a dress and thought, "Wow. He looks great!"? I'll never get the hang of life....
    Last edited by Pat; 12-31-2016 at 12:37 PM.
    I am not a woman; I don't want to be a woman; I don't want to be mistaken for a woman.
    I am not a man; I don't want to be a man; I don't want to be mistaken for a man.
    I am a transgender person. And I'm still figuring out what that means.

  12. #37
    Gold Member Dana44's Avatar
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    Indeed, we should be dressed and presenting as a woman when fully dressed. I use makeup and bling also. I have seen men in skirts and people do look at them and don't say anything. So men in skirts are okay. But wearing a dress is a whole different affair. One should look like a woman.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christina D View Post
    Your point is very well taken, Sue. Referring to your last point in particular, I'm reminded of something my mother said just a couple of weeks ago. Please don't hate my mother for this or assume this is how I think:

    "I mean, if someone who looked like Caitlyn Jenner walked into a bathroom with me, I'd be fine with that. I probably wouldn't even notice she's not a woman. But if someone like Mike (my mom's boyfriend, who's a very "manly man" with a rugged beard, wears heavy boots, is very muscular, etc.) walked in wearing a Cher wig and claimed to be a woman, I would be very uncomfortable."
    Nothing at all wrong with your mom's point. The whole point of the bathroom issue is gender expression, that, regardless of natal sex assignment, XX or XY chromosomes, or whatever other binary markers might exist, one or the other of the binary genders is being expressed and should be respected, all else being equal (i.e., well-behaved, sober, and so on). If Mike just puts on an ill-fitting, cheap Cher wig and views that as a sufficient expression of female gender to gain access to the ladies' loo, I've got a problem with that as well, because it's predatory, or at least voyeuristic (not that there's a lot to see in the stall farm), and that's what tweaks the intolerant into overreacting with nonsense like North Carolina's odious and ignorant law.

    It is when one's presentation may well be readable, but one's intentions are simply to use the toilet like any other civilized person when out presenting as a woman, that the protections built into "gender expression" come into play. That is, if we only have two choices, and the individual in question is (as you said in another post here) making an effort (however short of convincing) at a sincere "presentation" of gender, it flies in the face of everything we know about gender variance to rigidly insist that an XY person always use the "men's" room.

    Mike in a bad wig and nothing more is a man in a lousy costume messing with everyone else and reinforcing the worst fears of the anti crowd. An example from my experience may illustrate my point: I played in a band for a year, and we had a Halloween gig. The promoters of the dance advance-requested "Little Red Riding Hood", so our band leader suggested I wear a Little Red Riding Hood costume. Of course I didn't put up much of a fight over it. And not a cheap Halloween-store stereotype. A long black skirt, black-and-white peasant blouse, white stockings, black patent scrunch flats, full makeup, my topper hairpiece blended into my own long hair, and a red cape that my wife rented from a quality costume shop. We set up, I changed in an unused utility room, and when I had to use the toilet, I used the men's room. I was a guy in a girl's costume in that context, not a transgender person sincerely presenting as female without a costuming purpose. I never thought twice about which facility to use. I've seen my wife's photos from that night, and, in any other circumstance, my presentation was more than passable enough, but I was conscious of the context and behaved accordingly.

    Funny thing was, when we took a break and the guys all went outside to cool off (a couple overweight and one of them in a very hot Mad Hatter costume), I sat with the wives inside and put my aching feet up. One of them (we're all in our sixties) wanted to feel my leg and commented that I had boobs. I replied that padding is easy to do. I was a little taken by how natural it felt for me to hang with the gals during the break when the rest of the all-male band was elsewhere. Go figure. I was also kind of serene on stage by comparison to my usual slightly edgy performer's persona. It felt better.

    Then, when the show was over, you'd think I'd take off the costume and change back for the teardown work. Not on your life! Broke it down, packed it up, drove 45 miles home, and dropped some gear by the leader's place, still blissfully Li'l Hood.
    Last edited by Acastina; 12-31-2016 at 03:18 PM.

  14. #39
    Lady in waiting Peggie Lee's Avatar
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    A man in any clothes that deviate from the norm will draw attention. I stated wearing kilts at 11(being part Scottish) and it never failed to draw comments and looks, so the occasional "mommy there's a man in a dress" no longer bothered me as I grew up. After Transition wearing dresses and skirts was almost second nature.

  15. #40
    Member mona lisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana44 View Post
    Indeed, we should be dressed and presenting as a woman when fully dressed. I use makeup and bling also. I have seen men in skirts and people do look at them and don't say anything. So men in skirts are okay. But wearing a dress is a whole different affair. One should look like a woman.
    I agree.

  16. #41
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mona lisa View Post
    I agree.
    I disagree! We should be able to wear what we like when out. No, I don't like everything I see and probably would not associate much with those whose presentation I do not like. However, I will never say that someone "should" or "should not" wear something. That is a type of discrimination, which I do not like. What about those that say that men "should" not wear women's clothes? Dana, will that make you stop wearing them and going out in them, if you do go out?

    I think that the point of this thread is that as an observer to a conversation about a crossdresser (or other label on the TG umbrella spectrum), the OP saw a fairly logical and accepting range of comments and observations that were not pitchforks and torches, which is about how I expect most people out in the real world to deal with sightings of us in all our varied shapes, forms and looks. I appreciate that type of conversation because it leads to discussion, learning and hopefully more tolerations and acceptance in the future.

  17. #42
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Yes but Allie, those people did not think it was appropriate to have neatly trimmed facial hair and a dress and although I am somewhat biased of course, I could not fault their argument.

    In MY opinion I don't think that every time a CD or a trans person goes out in public they have to be perfectly presented, I have no issue with someone that is out in an andro look, or no makeup etc... but I think that going out in a red dress with facial hair is not a great look for our community.

    Jennie... pity you did not see him, I very much doubt you would have thought he looks great.
    Jennifer, yes agreed its for shock value most likely, but what is to be gained by shocking people that way? does it advance the cause of Transgender? does it make people more accepting? Not saying he doesn't have the right to do what he wants, but just because he has the right doesn't make it right.
    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

  18. #43
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    Becky, you misread my message. I was countering Krisi's assertion that one only does that for shock value. While it IS shocking to the general public, there is another reason a person might dress like that: they like wearing women's clothes. Their intent can be totally innocuous and still shock the normals.

    MY preference is presenting fully as a "normal" woman. When a cross dresser does not choose that option who am I to suggest it is "wrong"? Does it help/hurt the cause? Who knows. Do I help/hurt the cause being out? Who knows.

  19. #44
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Sorry Jennifer I misunderstood

    My view was that 5 normal reasonably intelligent middle aged people felt that a male dressing and presenting as a woman was perfectly ok, but that a guy in a dress with well maintained facial hair was not OK and thats why he was not advancing our cause.

    I have interacted with quite a few GG's over the course of my outings and I found most woman to be very welcoming, almost as if I was complimenting their gender by wanting to be them and the fact that I was making an effort to blend in seemed appreciated.
    Last edited by Becky Blue; 01-01-2017 at 07:08 PM.
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  20. #45
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    The least shocking of two or ten or one hundred things is usually the most acceptable thing for the public at large. Intelligent or otherwise.

  21. #46
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    Hi Becky, Some things and some people will never change......
    Having my ears triple pierced is AWESOME, ~~......

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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllieSF View Post
    We should be able to wear what we like when out. .
    Well, you can wear anything you want to when out (as long as it's legal). But, you have to accept the consequences. There are no laws saying people cannot laugh and point. And if you do this in front of people you know, it will have a negative affect on your relationships and career.

    The excuse of a man just liking to wear dresses is pretty lame.

  23. #48
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    I'm with you, AllieSF. I identify most closely with non-binary. I have worn a full beard for nearly 50 years. I fully understand how jarring it would be if I were to go out in a dress. Certainly, it would not be received well by anyone in either rest room. Still, I see changes to social norms occurring everyday, and asTS's become more commonplace, acceptance of non-binary will not be far behind. I appreciate the courage of the Trans community, and recognize the huge difficulties being faced. Having come to terms with my own struggles have been, in many ways, less difficult. I get to just be myself, and I don't have to make a binary life altering choice. My beard stays, my feelings are simply allowed to be more broad, and the beard stays on. The only concession is that although I can largely shop in the women's side of the store, my outer clothing is restricted somewhat to more closely reflect the allowed uniform socially dictated by current norms. I am sad to read so many in our broader community are so critical of how many of us present themselves, feeling that it presents our community in a bad light. I think recognizing diversity in our social fabric makes us all stronger, and what would be most jarring would be the recognition of how many of us there are along this spectrum! I done blame anyone who feels differently about this. I understand the points reflected in many of the posts. But still, it's sad...

  24. #49
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    At some point, this subject brings up the restroom question. Most of us here agree that when presenting as a woman we should use the women's restroom if a single unisex or family restroom is not available. And of course, when we are presenting as our male selves, we use the men's restroom.

    What if we are "presenting" as some combination of man and woman? Female clothing, boobs, etc., but no attempt to feminize the face or hair?

    It would seem obvious to me that one shouldn't use the women's restroom in this case, but there might be an unpleasant reaction from other men in the men's restroom.

    If you go out as a "man in a dress", which do you use and why?

  25. #50
    SJW and Proud of It! Christina D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krisi View Post
    Well, you can wear anything you want to when out (as long as it's legal). But, you have to accept the consequences. There are no laws saying people cannot laugh and point. And if you do this in front of people you know, it will have a negative affect on your relationships and career.

    The excuse of a man just liking to wear dresses is pretty lame.
    I'm sorry, but I cannot abide this defeatist mindset, whether it's applied to LQBTQ issues or any other situation in which the dominant/mainstream culture is granted the privilege to dismiss or ridicule a subordinate/counterculture.

    This defeatist attitude hits me particularly hard because as a child, long before I'd even touched clothes made for girls, I was teased and bullied constantly for wanting to play with girls rather than rough housing with the boys. When I told my teachers and parents about it, they all told me the same thing, "Well, if you're going to act like that, of course the boys are going to make fun of you."

    Why should anyone have to feel shame or feel the need to hide themselves away because others can't accept them, or at the very least mind their own business? If you ask me, someone not being able to accept "a man in a dress" isn't the fault or shortcoming in the man, it's in the "someone."
    "I'm just a girl, what's my destiny?/What I've succumbed to is making me numb/Oh I'm just a girl, my apologies/What I've become is so burdensome/Oh I'm just a girl, lucky me/Twiddle-dum there's no comparison" - "Just a Girl" by No Doubt

    "The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates

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