Interesting sighting and conversation

[Becky Blue]

So the other night 3 couples were out for dinner, the restaurant was right next door to a cinema complex. It was a warm night and we were eating outside. One of the women said OMG look and there no more than 20 meters away was a shortish almost bald guy with a very neat trimmed beard and moustache in a red knitted dress. He was wearing no makeup, had a small woman's handbag and plain flats. He was standing casually chatting with some people.

As you can well imagine the next 15 minutes of conversation was taken up by our sighting. No one at the table knows about Becky, so it was very interesting hearing the views of 3 middle aged women and 2 other guys all of whom have no exposure to our world and I was able to ask some interesting questions very carefully. I am simply restating their views and will only give my opinion at the end.

Everyone thought he looked ridiculous and the general consensus was that there is nothing wrong with a guy who wants to dress up like a woman and go out in public. They felt that he was mocking trans people and women by wearing the dress with the beard. The view was if you want to go out in public in a dress then shave the beard. They felt that he could have perhaps dressed in more gender neutral clothes and kept the beard, but that not only was he in a dress but a red one at that, almost like look at me.

All 3 woman agreed that they had no problem with a properly dressed CD/Trans person using the ladies bathroom, but would not feel comfortable with him there. The conversation them veered off talking about crossdressers and Trans people... there is a lot of ignorance out there lol and I had to be very careful to not know too much... ignorance but not negativity I am pleased to say.

It is quite ironic that I had started a thread about facial hair as I found the topic quite interesting and then I see a guy with a beard and red dress i have to say the belief from the other 5 people that he was mocking trans people and women was interesting.. and I have to agree it wasn't a good look. I fully support people's right to wear what they want when they want, but I can't argue with the logic of my 5 friends either

[immindy]

Gosh , I am sure this will stir up a number of opinions for sure . Myself , I would agree with your friends I think we need to present as woman as best we can and then it seems people respect us then . My personal experience is that if I present well people respect me. I realize many would disagree with that and people should have the right to dress as they wish . But it is what it is . so yea

[Christina D]

I think what makes talking about things like this (and, one could argue, gender identity in general) is that unless someone tells you how they identify and how they choose to present that identity, you can't really know. Our own members here are reflective of that. There are certainly many of us here who make it our own personal goals to present as womanly as possible, to ideally be indistinguishable from a GG. However, that's not for everyone. Then, there's the complicated issue of outward presentation versus internal gender identity. I, for one, go for complete passability while knowing and accepting that I am not a woman, but there are plenty of us who do feel that we are women in men's bodies or any of the other combinations that make up the gender spectrum.

Now, it could be for this individual that you saw that they are a happily cisgendered man who just likes to wear womens clothes, and that's fine. Maybe he doesn't feel the need to pass. Who knows? Answer: only he/her/they do.

And this brings us to the heart of what makes any non-standard gender identity laws, policies, and even individual perceptions so difficult to face: the fact that one stranger cannot know another stranger's "intentions." I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about the current bathroom laws situation, but I feel compellef to bring it up as an example of this. What many opponents (even those who would say that they have nothing against transfolk) of transfolk using the bathroom that matches their gender identity say is that if someone who cannot pass as a man or woman enters the bathroom, how can others be sure they aren't going to do anything lewd or harmful to others? Who knows if they "really identify" as a man or woman? Answer: only him/her/they can.

[Acastina]

I would quietly celebrate that all five of your companions validated and accepted a transgender person (of whatever degree) publicly presenting as close as can be to a convincing woman. It seems that what bugged them was the gender twist, the visual and conceptual clash of unshaved facial hair and so stereotypically feminine a garment as a red dress. The bearded lady is a classic circus freak, after all.

It would follow from this experience that at least your present company wouldn't have a negative reaction to someone such as, well, yourself, presenting your best efforts publicly. Assuming your friends are fairly typical of your local demographic, I would feel reassured that a terrible reaction would not be the likely result of an outing en femme. In other words, if your whole group was that overtly tolerant, your community environment is above average in my experience.

[Rachelakld]

Seen a few in the city with what to me is a 4 month beard and a dress.
One had her girlfriend with her and was trying on platform shoes, very girlie girl.
The other came across as gruff manly man so I doubt anyone would challenge him.
Both seemed happy

[Christina D]

Your point is very well taken, Sue. Referring to your last point in particular, I'm reminded of something my mother said just a couple of weeks ago. Please don't hate my mother for this or assume this is how I think:

"I mean, if someone who looked like Caitlyn Jenner walked into a bathroom with me, I'd be fine with that. I probably wouldn't even notice she's not a woman. But if someone like Mike (my mom's boyfriend, who's a very "manly man" with a rugged beard, wears heavy boots, is very muscular, etc.) walked in wearing a Cher wig and claimed to be a woman, I would be very uncomfortable."

[Acastina]

Your point is very well taken, Sue. Referring to your last point in particular, I'm reminded of something my mother said just a couple of weeks ago. Please don't hate my mother for this or assume this is how I think:

"I mean, if someone who looked like Caitlyn Jenner walked into a bathroom with me, I'd be fine with that. I probably wouldn't even notice she's not a woman. But if someone like Mike (my mom's boyfriend, who's a very "manly man" with a rugged beard, wears heavy boots, is very muscular, etc.) walked in wearing a Cher wig and claimed to be a woman, I would be very uncomfortable."

Nothing at all wrong with your mom's point. The whole point of the bathroom issue is gender expression, that, regardless of natal sex assignment, XX or XY chromosomes, or whatever other binary markers might exist, one or the other of the binary genders is being expressed and should be respected, all else being equal (i.e., well-behaved, sober, and so on). If Mike just puts on an ill-fitting, cheap Cher wig and views that as a sufficient expression of female gender to gain access to the ladies' loo, I've got a problem with that as well, because it's predatory, or at least voyeuristic (not that there's a lot to see in the stall farm), and that's what tweaks the intolerant into overreacting with nonsense like North Carolina's odious and ignorant law.

It is when one's presentation may well be readable, but one's intentions are simply to use the toilet like any other civilized person when out presenting as a woman, that the protections built into "gender expression" come into play. That is, if we only have two choices, and the individual in question is (as you said in another post here) making an effort (however short of convincing) at a sincere "presentation" of gender, it flies in the face of everything we know about gender variance to rigidly insist that an XY person always use the "men's" room.

Mike in a bad wig and nothing more is a man in a lousy costume messing with everyone else and reinforcing the worst fears of the anti crowd. An example from my experience may illustrate my point: I played in a band for a year, and we had a Halloween gig. The promoters of the dance advance-requested "Little Red Riding Hood", so our band leader suggested I wear a Little Red Riding Hood costume. Of course I didn't put up much of a fight over it. And not a cheap Halloween-store stereotype. A long black skirt, black-and-white peasant blouse, white stockings, black patent scrunch flats, full makeup, my topper hairpiece blended into my own long hair, and a red cape that my wife rented from a quality costume shop. We set up, I changed in an unused utility room, and when I had to use the toilet, I used the men's room. I was a guy in a girl's costume in that context, not a transgender person sincerely presenting as female without a costuming purpose. I never thought twice about which facility to use. I've seen my wife's photos from that night, and, in any other circumstance, my presentation was more than passable enough, but I was conscious of the context and behaved accordingly.

Funny thing was, when we took a break and the guys all went outside to cool off (a couple overweight and one of them in a very hot Mad Hatter costume), I sat with the wives inside and put my aching feet up. One of them (we're all in our sixties) wanted to feel my leg and commented that I had boobs. I replied that padding is easy to do. I was a little taken by how natural it felt for me to hang with the gals during the break when the rest of the all-male band was elsewhere. Go figure. I was also kind of serene on stage by comparison to my usual slightly edgy performer's persona. It felt better.

Then, when the show was over, you'd think I'd take off the costume and change back for the teardown work. Not on your life! Broke it down, packed it up, drove 45 miles home, and dropped some gear by the leader's place, still blissfully Li'l Hood.

[SarahleeNH]

I see both sides, but agree with Windsheer. If we look at the Bathroom bill as an example, people were suddenly upset that men presenting as women might possibly use a women's bathroom facility. The fact is, that has been the case for as long as there have been separate facilities. But no one noticed. If only those crossdressers who can pass scrutiny are allowed in public by our 'community', no one would notice that there are men wearing women's clothes in public! How does that move the community forward? A bearded man in a dress is a jarring visual, to be sure. But it's not as if we are suggesting that they are also committing illegal or lascivious acts. Put me down for individualist. Although I'm afraid I don't have the courage to be that bearded man in a dress at the mall.

[Becky Blue]

I have to disagree with you Sarahlee. There is a huge difference between passing and looking as good as possible. Over the years on many outings I have chatted with many GG's, it is not passing that impresses them it is the effort we have gone to to look as good and as feminine as we can. Whether its that 350lbs footballer or a 5'6" skinny guy we are being judged on effort which equates to respect. One could argue that going out in a red dress with facial hair is disrespectful to women.

[Lucy23]

They felt that he was mocking trans people and women by wearing the dress with the beard. The view was if you want to go out in public in a dress then shave the beard.

Did you ask why they felt that way? I think I get why the conclusion, but as Christina pointed out, we don't know his intentions. And while I agree that the beard makes it even more stranger, would they felt the same way had he shaved? He has still a man in a dress.

Last summer I saw two young men wearing women's dress where I live. One was wearing what could be described as "little white dress" and heavy boots and was surrounded with bunch of English speaking alcohol drinking loud mouths (English is not my native language). He had no beard, and I guess he was having a stag party. The other one wore what seemed like a horribly cut air hostess' uniform, again surrounded by bunch of other guys. This is what I would call mockery of trans people.

[Lucy23]

Lucy, I am reporting what 5 middle aged intelligent reasonably open minded people who have no known exposure to our community discussed. I think they felt it was more disrespectful to woman than the Trans community. Perhaps the women felt that if he wanted to wear 'their clothes' then perhaps he shouldn't have such obvious male face signage. He was not doing anything obvious, but besides the dress he had on plain black woman's flats and a small over the shoulder woman's handbag too.

Lucy question for you.. do you go out dressed?

I guess there are too many unknowns to be sure.

To answer your question, no, I don't go out dressed. Probably because what Krisi later mentioned about how a man in a dress could be seen and the incident in a fast food restaurant (not that I would do the same), and what Sue posted about Jacob Tobia.

I realize that going out like Jacob (minus the make-up for me, but the style in the article is similar to mine) would be far too over the line where I live and would not only garner really bad public reactions, I would risk much more (and I'm not talking about a fight, that I can handle). To make a pun on Sue's wordplay, it would be more of a "brave new planet". Not to mention Conchita Wurst; if she is anything to go by, many people here would not be accepting of a man dressed like that; if he is making some sort of fun, that might a different story.

However, I think being out completely en femme would be more acceptable. But then what should I do if I'm not really into wigs and make-up, giving up time to learn the skill least of all? Try it in spite of that and see where it leads me?

I guess I'm in the minority with this; but I am interested in learning this - could you please elaborate on why do you think looking more like a woman would be the way to go? Or, as in what Christina said, Well, if you're going to crossdress/be trans/whatever, at least do it right. Put some effort into it.

[Jenniferathome]

Lucy, regarding the "looking more like a woman" as the way to go, I'll refer back to my original respond to this thread. It's about shock value. A man wearing women's clothes but bearded and clearly presenting male is MORE shocking to the general public than a man dressed in women's clothes presenting female. BOTH are weird to the general public but one is more weird based on expectations with which we have all grown up.

[Krisi]

Lucy, regarding the "looking more like a woman" as the way to go, I'll refer back to my original respond to this thread. It's about shock value. A man wearing women's clothes but neared and clearly presenting male is MORE shocking to the general public than a man dressed in women's clothes presenting female. BOTH are weird to the general public but one is more weird based on expectations with which we have all grown up.

I assume that was supposed to be "bearded".

I think that's exactly why a man would go out in public in women's clothing but clearly as a man, with possibly a beard and bald head: shock value. To call attention to himself and to shock other people. It's a way to attract attention to yourself. Sometimes we get tired of being just a face in the crowd and want to be noticed.

[Jenniferathome]

Yes, "bearded" but no, not only for shock value. This person may simply like wearing women's clothes. In other words, a cross dresser! There are several members here who do not present as female but wear women's clothing because they like it. And contrary to a statement above, they are not mocking anyone.

My point about shock value is that it is simply MORE shocking to the viewer to see something that is most different from expectation.

[Julie MA]

Complex topic and I am still trying to figure out all of this. But seems many of us strive to pass, because we respect the all feminine look. Some don't. If we want CD and Trans acceptance it should be for everyone throughout the genger spectrum. I know society is far from that, but we have made rapid progress of late.

This comment is not about the bathroom choice/rights issue, per se. But, why is it some assume a CD or Trans person is going to do something lewd or abuse someone else in a bathroom? Especially if they appear to be intentionally non-passable? Arent most sexual assaults perpetrated by cisgender men, in men's clothes?

[Krisi]

You had a conversation with five "normal" people (as far as you know). You got a taste of the real world and the opinions of non crossdressers and non transsexuals. That's good. It helps to hear how these people feel about us.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

If your friends saw a bearded man in a dress every day they'd cease to notice. It's the unusualness that struck them, as much as anything. What seems odd to me is that they then spent time as a group digesting and reacting to this thing they'd seen - how narrow their thinking must be, given that these are the same people who have watched planes flying into skyscrapers, terrorists beheading their fellow citizens, mankind landing on the moon, etc, etc- you'd think they'd take such a small innocent thing as a bearded man in a dress in their stride...

[Krisi]

.......... you'd think they'd take such a small innocent thing as a bearded man in a dress in their stride

Nope. They saw something unusual and had a conversation about it. That's pretty normal. If a clown had walked by, they probably would have had a conversation about that. If a woman had walked by in a bikini, they would have had a conversation about that.

[Shayna]

Nope. They saw something unusual and had a conversation about it. That's pretty normal. If a clown had walked by, they probably would have had a conversation about that. If a woman had walked by in a bikini, they would have had a conversation about that.

Completely agree with this. The other night, me and my wife saw a D-list celebrity from the 80's around LA who drives around heavily made up in a pink corvette. We talked about her the whole night because it was out of the ordinary. There's also a guy who walks around the Hollywood area dressed as Jesus and I've had several conversations with people about him.

That being said, if he wants to have a beard and wear a dress I've got no problem with it. Just someone being who they are, even if it is out of the ordinary.

[Becky Blue]

As expected a lot of interesting responses... many of us only get to talk about the whole CD/TG topic with each other or with SO's family or friends we have shared with. For me this was a unique opportunity to discuss crossdressing with 5 people with no agenda.

Let me say that all of us here are inherently biased, we have way more knowledge than the average person out there. I also wanted to be clear that this person was not unshaven, he had a very neatly trimmed beard and moustache.

Christina, there is a huge difference between someone trying to pass and perhaps not succeeding and wearing a dress with a beard and moustache. I think the person we saw had very clear intentions.

Acastina, yes it was very heartening that they all seemed to think that a guy presenting as a woman was acceptable, but it was more than a circus freak they felt it was mocking.

Lucy, I could not ask directly as that could have raised suspicions, but one comment which gained general agreement was that a beard and moustache are something only a male can have so why bother to present with a red dress and such a uniquely male face, if not to mock?

Julie, the women were not concerned about sexual assault in the ladies room, a male sexual predator could just walk in, why the need to frock up? they said they would feel uncomfortable with a guy in a dress who is so obviously not trying to look female.

Nikki, firstly I disagree what got to them was the fact that someone had chosen to wear a dress (red one too.. as in look at me in bright colours) with facial hair. Secondly if we spent all our time discussing serious matters only the world would be a very unhappy place... I think the fact that 5 (plus me) relatively normal educated intelligent people spent 15 minutes talking about crossdressing and transgender in a mostly positive way is makes the world a better place than talking about beheadings.

Krisi, well said, except not so sure about the bikini it was close to 100f at 8pm

Penton and others no one said he doesn't have the right to do what he did, it is within the law in Australia, but just because he has the right doesn't mean what he was doing was necessarily good for our community.

Jennifer, could not have put it better myself.

I believe that CD/Trans people are well down the road to more acceptance, I do think that we have a responsibility to assist ordinary people to accept us as normal, going out as a half male half female in my opinion is not helping, as it can encourage people to think freak!!

[Lucy23]

Acastina, yes it was very heartening that they all seemed to think that a guy presenting as a woman was acceptable, but it was more than a circus freak they felt it was mocking.

Lucy, I could not ask directly as that could have raised suspicions, but one comment which gained general agreement was that a beard and moustache are something only a male can have so why bother to present with a red dress and such a uniquely male face, if not to mock?

Jennifer, could not have put it better myself.

I believe that CD/Trans people are well down the road to more acceptance, I do think that we have a responsibility to assist ordinary people to accept us as normal, going out as a half male half female in my opinion is not helping, as it can encourage people to think freak!!

Becky, I agree that a combination of a red dress and a beard is something that is hard not to take notice of, and could be described as a circus freak. A bearded woman in a circus is trope, after all. Maybe as was pointed out that had he worn a more subtle or unisex clothing he wouldn't have garnered much attention.

Still, I just can't wrap my head around as to his supposed intentions to mock the community. Did he wear obviously fake breasts or at least trying to emulate a female figure? Did he make any obvious or exaggerated feminine gestures? That would, at least for me, be a sign that he was making a mockery of the community. You see, you say that a moustache or a beard for that matter is male trait and many men, myself included, are proud of it (I maintain stubble); I guess the same can be said about women and breasts for example. But I think a red dress is something only associated with women, not their trait in the way breasts are. See where I'm going with this? There I cannot agree with the half-male half-female address.

And of course that I agree that we have the responsibility to present in a certain way. And although I must admit that I love wearing bras (still figuring out why) but at the same time I have no intention to either pass or present as a woman. Trying to pass is one of those ways to help understand us, but that wouldn't do much for me.

You see, I love wearing women's clothes, but that's where it ends. For me it would be more in the way of wearing as respectable clothing as I can, as in a business dress with heels to work, or if I opt for a miniskirt I would wear ballet flats and not heels.

[Christina D]

Christina, there is a huge difference between someone trying to pass and perhaps not succeeding and wearing a dress with a beard and moustache. I think the person we saw had very clear intentions.

Oh for sure, I don't doubt at all that he/she/they have and know their intentions. The point I was trying to make is that OTHERS are likely to assume what those intentions are without knowing that person at all.

It seems to me that there's an irony to how gender is being reevaluated by our society right now. Until recently, only a minority of people could accept and understand the concept of anything outside of binary genders; men were men and women were women with clear social expectations, norms, etc. These days, although there's still a lot of progress to be made, more members of our society are willing to accept LGBTQ identities, but the irony is that for many of them to accept it, there's still boundaries or criteria to be met. So, in short, there's more acceptance, but that acceptance still comes with expectations.

In other words (and yes, I know I'm assuming a lot here), these friends and others like them expect that a MTF crossdresser should be meeting these new standards. Like, "Well, if you're going to crossdress/be trans/whatever, at least do it right. Put some effort into it."

[Penton]

I agree with both Nikki and Krisi. A man with a beard has as much right to wear a dress as anyone. I always go back to Eddie Izzard a great example. I wear a beard and a dress and lack the confidence (in myself And in society) to do it publicly. But I will also say, if I did go out publicly dressed that way I'd use the men's room.

[Helen_Highwater]

I'm old enough to remember when seeing someone from elsewhere, i.e. the West Indies or India/Pakistan would initiate significant discussion as it was something new, a novelty, some saw it as threatening. It was the unusual, the unknown. Man in a dress in a public situation is the same. If men in dresses, with or without beards became commonplace then it would cease to be an issue to all but a few die hard bigots.

Here's the difference. Men in dresses isn't likely to become commonplace anytime soon. Also people who see a CD'er fully dressed, wig, makeup the full monty have an existing reference point, it's a man dressing and presenting as a female. They don't have the same anchor when presented with someone male dressed in female clothes but not attempting to present as female. In their mind they can't answer the question "Why?".

[Jenniferathome]

...Everyone thought he looked ridiculous and the general consensus was that there is nothing wrong with a guy who wants to dress up like a woman and go out in public. ...

What this says to me is that the expected image and the actual image were too far disconnected for the average person to embrace.

This has nothing to do with one's right to wear what they want, and everything to do with the reasonable reaction of the average person to expected norms.