Visceral Response

[Meghan4now]

So, I was talking to Tracii over dinner the other day and asked her a question, which she thought I should ask the forum.

As we are aware, other people's response to our dressing, trans-ness, orientation, presentation and even libido are not always apparently rational. While it is easy to say,"that's their problem" reactions from others IS in fact major part of the dynamic of a relationship. Relationships are all about how we treat and react to one another.

Getting down to it though, some reactions are hard to explain. For example, I have seen and heard a lot of "eww", "that creeps me out", or "gross" types of visceral comments about CDs, from observations of TV shows, movies, news, and even in conversations with my spouse and others. And people are entitled to their opinions, even if they are uninformed.

But this got me thinking, there has to be some basis for this visceral reaction. For example, my wife will throw up if she smells vomit. People will instinctively fight or flight to a dangerous situation, etc. My question is, what is the root of the visceral negative response to CDing? Could it be fear of catching CD cooties? Could it be fear of being seduced? Could it be fear that the person is violently unstable? Do CDS smell noxious? Are we dangerous, or poisonous or disease laden?

What is the cause of the "Ewww" visceral response? Maybe if I understood that, I could address the response with a rational approach. Of course each person may have their own reason, but it might help to ferret it out. And there may be root causes I am not considering.

[Micki_Finn]

Quite simply it's just not understanding, especially in the motivation department. A lot of people simply don't understand why we dress. From a straight person's point of view, the most logical reason for dressing is that you are trying to deceive people, which generally causes that kind of negative reaction.

Then there's also the uncanny valley theory. That is, to most straight people, many cross dressers fall somewhere short of completely passable nor are they obviously a guy so it causes that kind of instinctual visceral reaction. Similar to how many people are creeped out by clowns or certain dolls. If you're not familiar with the uncanny valley, it's most commonly referenced in robotics. Basically the more human looking a robot is, the more likely people are to accept it. However if we are charting this, the line of acceptance would steadily increase until a certain point when the robot looks pretty close to human but is still slightly distinguishable from real at which point people tend to have a viscerally and unfounded negative reaction. Once the robot becomes "passable" that dip resolves itself and the pattern of acceptance resumes.

[AllieSF]

I think that in many, if not most, cases it is a response to something that is totally out of the norm for a person encountering something that that know nothing to very little about and have a negative, maybe even unconscious, opinion of it all. Lack of knowledge. Someone tells you that they ran a 5K mud race. If you are unfamiliar with that type of fun race you may go "Eww!" because it sounds dirty and cold and wet. If someone tells you about a new dessert they had at a restaurant that had olive oil over vanilla ice cream with coarse sea salt sprinkled on top of that, you may go "Eww!" there too. Actually that is my favorite desert at one place I frequent. So, it could be similar for CDing. They know very little about it and because of that lack of knowledge and exposure they think it is weird as a first response. Now some may continue with that negativity, but many others will eventually learn to live with it as they learn more and get more exposure to it.

[Michelle Crossfire]

I agree with Micki_Finn. It is usually a lack of understanding or an unwillingness to understand. It could be how one was raised, or caused by any number of reasons.

[AllieSF]

Micki, I agree with most of what you say, but disagree with the "trying to deceive people" part. I have only read that a few times here and have never heard anywhere else. Now if someone has experience with a trap, someone who can pass and does so to trick/surprise someone when they eventually find out, then, yes, I understand that feeling. Since so few of us come anywhere near to passing in a more general sense, we are thus obvious one gender wearing the clothes of another and not deceiving anyone. I strongly agree with the not understanding of the why, or associating our dressing with the sexual fetish side, which in my opinion a minority reason for all this.

[Meghan4now]

So far, I like the train of thought, but it is like the 5 whys in root cause analysis. In your ice cream example, I get that. Sweet and creamy meets oily, salty with an olive twang. Doesn't sound good. The visceral reaction in that case is, won't taste good, and maybe there's a texture problem. Obviously uninformed. But CDing, is it danger? What danger?

And yes, uninformed is important, but I can run into other situations that I am equally uninformed about, and not react in such a visceral response.

[suzanne]

We live in a patriarchal society, in which the highest ranking is thought to be the manly MAN. And not just any man, but the hyper-masculine version, as illustrated in our media. Think GI Joe, the NFL, Clint Eastwood and a range of emotional expression that spans all the way from anger to contempt. In this world, woman and female and feminine are regarded as "less than". I wholeheartedly disagree with this, but it is what I observe.

In the patriarchy, a girl or woman who performs or wishes to participate in those activities that have been designated as "masculine" is pretty much given a pass. To an extent. She is limited by the glass ceiling or by labels like "****" or "lesbian" or costuming a la Lingerie Football league, but she has much more latitude than her male counterpart. A genetic male who wants to be a kindergarten teacher or stay at home dad is suspicious. If he puts on a dress, Armageddon is right around the corner. He has committed high treason against the male code.

And it's not just the men who have bought into this code. It's everyone, including all those women who want to tell their CD husband "I forbid". When asked about the code, most will reply that it's just the way it is, that men are men. Period. It's like asking a fish about the existence of water. It's so all encompassing, one can't imagine that an alternative can exist. So maybe part of the answer is that the muggles are threatened by potentially losing the security of the code.

[Becky Blue]

I think its mostly ignorance & fear of the unknown. Studies have shown that one of the biggest fears people have is of fear itself. People do not like change, they do not like difference therefore they to an extent fear us, they fear our difference.

Only 30 years ago a lot of people had a negative reaction to gay people, now most (not all) people are ok with gay people, being gay has been almost normalised. That is why i am a huge supporter of every Trans person that is out there (even Caitlyn) making news as they are helping to normalise trans.

[Meghan4now]

Hmm,

I'm still contemplating. I think Mickie has helped my thought process. After all, we humans often reject that which we have been trained is unacceptable. Think of people with abnormalities or even birth defects. Defects we call them. Aberrations from the norm. Mis-shapened features, body parts, etc. While people don't like to admit it, it makes us uncomfortable. Usually we see mutation from the norm as bad, likely to not survive, unhealthy.

Are CDS mutants? If so, I want to be Mystique!

[Dana44]

I don't think we are mutants, However, many of us were born wrong and many of us growing up in that patriarchal society we could not find any information to help us. I am a DES kid and having synthetic estrogen running over my body did a number on me. I wondered when I was a kid if I was even male. Growing up was strange and It took me a while to find myself. That is why we are non binary and perhaps we beat to our own drum. We are not conformist and gifted in a way that people do look at us as a bit weird.

[Helen_Highwater]

My thoughts are that it's a throwback to times were being Gay or CD, both being considered under the same umbrella as mutually inclusive, were socially taboo and to say frowned upon understates the situation.

It takes many generations to overcome long held bigotry entirely. Some children will move pass their parents racism or homophobia, some simply won't. Couple to this that in a social environment standing out from the crowd and asking, " So what's wrong in dressing they way they do?" places the supportive individual open to taunts of being gay or CD themselves, means that person has to be immensely strong when communicating their point of view.

Let's face it, while being gay has to a large but not total extent, lost it's stigma, CD'ing still has a way to go. With those who are accepting there is a significant percentage who still associate CD'ing with being gay. Finally if we here can't really understand at a base level, (we know how it effects us) what it is that initially draws us to do what we do, how can others begin to comprehend our situation.

[Tracii G]

Dana there have been non conformists for generations and they were called eccentric so its nothing new.
I do believe a lack of knowledge or understanding is a lot of it.
I really haven't come up with a theory on Meghan's question so please continue.
P.S. when I see big spiders I say "eeeek" then I squash them and say "ewwww".
Thanks for the nice chat over dinner Meghan it was so nice to meet you.

[Meghan4now]

Ha ha, Tracii. I would have never guessed you to say eek over a spider. The smash and ewww I would believe.

And thanks for taking the time for dinner. It was a good conversation, and you know how I love to meet people from this board in person. One of the main reasons to stick around, even when the post get repetitive.

I suppose general acceptance has a factor, but getting down to that core of almost unconscious visceral ick factor goes beyond that I think. That kind of response is deeply ingrained.

[Tina_gm]

I agree a lot of what Suzanne says in terms of the patriarchal society. Some places, like where I reside are very steep into this belief. I too have seen many women in this area have just as negative reaction as do men. The mention of transgender in a general convoy caused one woman to make the gag/vomit sign. And of course social media in my area is strewn with anti gay anti Trans memes.

Becky makes good observations about fear of the unknown. We tend to fear what we don't understand as humans. Social conditioning besides just patriarchal, being told and literally preached to about how it is not only wrong, but sinful/evil.

[Tracii G]

To be honest I have no idea about all of this so I am enjoying the read and perhaps all of us will learn together.

Now I will be watching for spiders all night.LOL

[Acastina]

Patriarchy, yes, of course. With maleness the dominant one, it's a step down, demeaning, for a male to emulate a female, whether in behavior or attire. Man up, don't be a a sissy, you're such a pussy; all of the same cloth. Assertive women can get either response, respect for reaching up toward the dominant or contempt for threatening its primacy. But women who pretty much cross-dress in drab unisex clothing get a pass in almost every case.

No one has mentioned latency fear. It's a pretty well-recognized phenomenon that some anti-gay abuse stems from fear in the abuser that he is a latent gay, and that should port over to us as well.

Generic bigotry, the I-hate-almost-everyone-who-isn't-like-me syndrome. On the rise lately.

Social insecurity and anxiety; teenagers at the mall.

[michelleddg]

Heck, I dunno, but I suspect it's how many people react when taken dramatically out of their comfort zone. Either that or they really want to try on our shoes but are embarrassed to admit it. Hugs, Michelle

[Jenniferathome]

It's weird.

Anything far out of the norm has a similar response.

[Meghan4now]

I don't know about this patriarchal theory, for some yes, but we still get a lot of ick from women, including feminist. I think it may be closer to the fact that it not the norm, and sticks out, like fingernails on a chalk board. An incongruity, maybe like hitting an off key note. But Stravinsky shows us how the discordant can resolve into harmony, so there is still hope for us.

BTW Michelle, who wouldn't want to try your shoes on? They're fabulous

[Tracii G]

I recently got verbally slammed by a raging feminist SJW so how does that fit in the mix?
I am sure she is pro gay and tells people that but she sure didn't like me at all because I was a guy with make up and womens clothes.
Maybe she was a "not in my backyard type". All I know she was a nut case on the loose.

[docrobbysherry]

I've gotten a lot of responses when out among the Muggles. Some positive but most not!

The worst I ever heard was, "That is the weirdest F ing thing I've ever seen!" Said in a very loud voice in a crowd in Vegas. By a T girl who had as much chance of passing as Arnold Schwarzenegger!

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Meghan, You just can't fix stupid ! ......

[SarahleeNH]

I think that if someone challenges a social norm in a bold way, many react negatively because it appears to be rude. Sort of a 'I've made an effort to dress appropriately to be here, but you haven't met your part of the social contract. Therefore, we need to give you some 'correction'. Social integrity requires civic discipline or the entire fabric begins to unravel, is the thought. At least, I think it is the subconscious feeling of many. My two cents...

[Krisi]

.......And people are entitled to their opinions, even if they are uninformed................

"even if they are uninformed" - Isn't that just a code phrases for "they don't agree with my opinions"?

Until we've know someone intimately for a very long time, we don't know what caused them to form their "opinions" and even then it would be presumptuous to assume that our opinions are right and theirs are wrong.

People (in the USA, at least) are entitled to their own opinions. At this point, we have no thought police. They may not be allowed to act on their own opinions but they are allowed to have them.

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

I've gotten a lot of responses when out among the Muggles. Some positive but most not!

The worst I ever heard was, "That is the weirdest F ing thing I've ever seen!" Said in a very loud voice in a crowd in Vegas. By a T girl who had as much chance of passing as Arnold Schwarzenegger!

Sherry, you take this thing a lot further than most of us with the suit and especially the mask. And from the photos you've posted, I would say your outfits are over the top as well. You should not be surprised that you get the reactions you get.

Those of us who make an effort to blend in with the crowd don't normally get reactions like you mentioned.

[Jackie7]

I think Michelle nailed it. The strongest eeeeew reaction might be a genuine gut response, but it might also be a mask to hide secret fascination.