Psych's Opinion

[Mirya]

What I am really asking here is what the psych. community thinks about MtF CDing, is it O.K.; if so why is society dragging their a** on acceptance? And I hope you don't say because we are such a small number, there are other groups that are also small but accepted i.e. the Washington Redskins fans (joke, handle it).

The 'psych community' believes CDing is ok. Swimtran's post earlier in this thread said that she went to a therapist who said it's not a problem. And I agree; it's not a disorder.

As for societal acceptance? I'm sure that there are a lot more CDs than TS women. Yet how often do you see CDs organizing and advocating and speaking out for acceptance? How often do you see CDs being out and open? You all outnumber us by a huge margin, yet you don't do anything to increase visibility or awareness. I'm not saying you have to go do a live television interview, but do you even tell your friends about your CDing? Or do you hide in the shadows, not even telling your wives about something that is so important to you?

I'm sure there are a few who do, but the vast majority of CDs are in the closet. Until CDs come out and increase their visibility and advocate for acceptance, things won't change. If CDing is an important part of who you are, then prove it! Be proud of it, own it, and be open about it. Yes, it will require sacrifice - every marginalized group has had to suffer blood and tears to earn acceptance. It doesn't come for free, and it doesn't come on the backs of transsexuals. CDs will need to earn it themselves - and they can - if they try.

[Tracii G]

I agree Mirya.
I look at it this way if you don't stand up and contribute you are part of the problem.
Get out be seen and own who you are, if you chose not to then don't complain that you get no acceptance.

[Gabriella111]

The research is suggesting gender identification is a spectrum.

I think this point is getting lost. Zooey is totally correct that research findings shouldn't be applied in ways the research doesn't support. This bit, however, isn't necessarily exclusive to the transgender community. If gender identification is on a spectrum, that applies to everyone. And it really just supports the anecdotal and experiential knowledge everyone here already had.

[Ressie]

I don't think you need opinions from the psych community to understand your questions. Even if all the shrinks agreed that crossdressing is normal, most of the general public wouldn't decide to accept it. But all psycholgists aren't gonna be in agreement about it anyway. The nature of man is more of a philosophy than a science. And there's plenty of evidence that humans aren't all that civil in the first place. Hoping for acceptance is fine, but expecting complete acceptance from society will only leave you frustrated and unhappy.

[Suzie Petersen]

Deebra: just like roaches and ants crossdressing has survived for centuries

And the stores have a lot of poisons for sale to get rid of the roaches and ants!
I guess we are lucky they have not come up with a "Raid for CD's" yet

Anyway, my 2 cents on your question is that crossdressing, in the general populations eye, is associated with behaviors that most find despicable!
For every published story about a normal functioning CD person, there are 100 stories available on the internet of men dressed as women for various sexual reasons. The general population is afraid of people like that and feel they have to protect themselves and their children from that kind of people and behavior.

With regard to the "normal" CD'ers who just want to live a normal life, I think people have a much easier time accepting a TS person who once and for all changes from one gender to the other, because that person stays within most peoples accepted gender norms, just correcting an initial mistake.
The CD on the other hand creates confusion by not staying within the accepted boxes and people are confused by the motivation for that behavior.

It comes down to the classic advice offered on this forum: "Act normal and people will accept you!". The transitioned TS eventually ends up acting normal, but the CD rarely does.

- Suzie

[PretzelGirl]

I think one of the points lost a few messages back about gender being a spectrum. There are arguments on whether a spectrum is true or not, but lets roll with it. So one end is male and the other is female (the fallacy is calling the ends cis). I am a woman and whether I am trans or cis is only a point that can be used for discrimination. Next, gender has nothing to do with clothing, it is an innate sense of identity. I am wearing jeans and a sweater right now. I could be naked and I am still a woman. So now let's define a crossdresser. A CD is a person who wears clothing of the opposite gender. No where in there is having the sense of being the other gender mentioned. So a CD, by definition, is a guy (in the case of most here who wear women's clothes). To be on the supposed spectrum and not at the end point, you have to have a sense of identity aligned with the other gender. If you say you are a man, then you are a man, cis or trans (as in transmen).

[jessi]

Psychologist & psychiatrist are suppose to know more about human behavior or what makes us tick or why we are the same but each is different than anybody else; Lord knows they have spent enough time and money in schools learning about our two legged species.

Despite the training in both in academia and a clinical setting, psychiatrists and psychologists are still human.

Their perspective is informed by their own experiences, biases, and psychological and spiritual struggles.

Their perspective is influenced by cultural preferences and biases as well.

To give you an example, let's say that two different patients go to psychiatrists with the same background and training.

Patient A was born to affluent, politically very liberal parents, grew up in Park Slope, Brooklyn, went to Princeton for undergrad and Yale for graduate school, and works on Wall Street.

Patient B grew up in Secaucus, New Jersey, went to Rutgers but didn't finish, parents were politically conservative as is the patient, and he works as a master plumber (successful in his own right, but not Wall Street-level pay or social status)

Both are confused by their desires to crossdress, by their gender ambiguity. They are looking for answers or at least some perspective.

Would the assumptions and perspective offered by the therapist be different for these two patients? In an ideal world, no, but practically speaking, it is very likely.

[Pat]

To be on the supposed spectrum and not at the end point, you have to have a sense of identity aligned with the other gender.

Not sure what that means. I think by your specifications I am "on the spectrum." I would say I *am* (that is, my sense of identity is) a third gender for which we have no word at present. I am not a man. I am not a woman. I also have some fleshy bits having to do with reproduction but they have no place in a gender discussion. So how do I fit in your model?

[Zooey]

You're on HRT, and transitioning in a sense. To whatever extent there is a spectrum, and whether it's a continuous one or not, I would say you're somewhere on it.

I have mixed feelings on whether gender is actually a spectrum, but I definitely don't believe that dysphoria is on a spectrum of any significance. Either you have it and need treatment, or you don't. Gender expression interests/preferences are not gender identity issues.

[Suzie Petersen]

Zooey: Gender expression interests/preferences are not gender identity issues.

While some here will say that "Gender expression interests/preferences" is not an issue for them at all, I think most CD'ers here will agree that the desire to dress up is an issue for them one way or another.

So if a CD is not experiencing gender identity issues, what would you call those issues instead?

- Suzie

[Zooey]

A variety of things, from sexual fetish, to obsession, to stress related behavior, to play, to I'm sure a whole bunch of other things that might cause a man to find relief or enjoyment in expressing typical cross-sex traits. What discomfort they may have with being a crossdresser is sociological, and most often rooted in stigma and embarrassment.

What's not driving them is a deep-rooted disconnect between their biological sex and their core gender identity, causing them clinically significant distress, and necessitating transition.

[Georgette_USA]

Agreeing with Zooey.

In On-line chat I find those to be a very big part of some. Stopped going to some On-line chat, when they see I am "mature" would be asked for those type of things, and I got tired of doing that.

Have never found a woman that wanted any type of CD fantasies.

[Zooey]

sweetdreams, I apologize if you think that I'm trying to "bitch slap" (ugh) a group of crossdressers. The only point I've been making is that the studies you linked to (along with other previously released studies on the subject) say nothing about a biological basis for crossdressing, or even about a notion of gender identity as a spectrum. The data shows that, for binary transexual people, their brain structure shows certain similarities to the brains of their target sex. In some cases, but not all, they have further focused on medically transitioned transexuals, meaning that the effects of HRT are not separated out (which is problematic in some ways).

You are of course welcome to discuss your feelings all you want. These studies are not about feelings though, they are about science. NOBODY wins when you misinterpret the results of scientific studies. I am not here to "bitch slap" crossdressers. I'm here to say that you're trying to apply data to yourself which is not applicable to you.

The only significant opinions that I've stated are that 1) you are trying to use studies on transexuals to feel validated about your condition, whatever it may be, and 2) that there is often friction between CDs and women (cis and trans) due to the appropriation of the "fun" stuff and (in some cases) the identity of woman (while "dressed") while still claiming to be men and retain that privilege. I gave them in response to things that were said in the thread, and to be clear, I stand by both of them.

[sweetdreams]

The only significant opinions that I've stated are that 1) you are trying to use studies on transexuals to feel validated about YOUR condition, whatever it may be, and 2) that there is often friction between CDs and women (cis and trans) due to the appropriation of the "fun" stuff and the identity of woman while still claiming to be men and retain that privilege. To be clear, I stand by both of those opinions.

I understand what you are saying about 1) but I'm not entirely convinced the direction the studies point in can't be applied to CDers.

I'm surprised and didn't understand the intensity on item 2). I would have thought we are in a similar boat and share common challenges. GGs may look at you and say eww. Apparently the TS community wants to look at CDers and say ew. And so the ball rolls along with various groups looking at other groups and rejecting them.

A big point I'm asking is this really the right venue to tell CDers they don't have their thinking right?

[Taylor186]

I had a close CD friend whose signature line, which I liked, was, "support is not always approval." Personally, I learn the most when I can read and/or participate in a vigorous discussion of facts and ideas. Cheerleading is overrated.

I'm a crossdresser, and that's all that I am, and I'm not the least bit offended or put down by Zooey's contributions to this thread. In fact, I agree with her as it applies to my crossdressing journey versus that of a trans woman or transsexual.

[Zooey]

I understand what you are saying about 1) but I'm not entirely convinced the direction the studies point in can't be applied to CDers.

"Direction". You are talking about extrapolation. You hypothesize that the results those studies generated would apply, perhaps proportionally, to CDs. Great. Fund a study to test that hypothesis, but YOU are pointing in that direction, not the data.

I'm surprised and didn't understand the intensity on item 2). I would have thought we are in a similar boat and share common challenges. GGs may look at you and say eww. Apparently the TS community wants to look at CDers and say ew. And so the ball rolls along with various groups looking at other groups and rejecting them. A big point I'm asking is this really the right venue to tell CDers they don't have their thinking right?

We both have a different set of challenges. Trans women have a "consistent recognition as women" problem, although we are actually making relatively swift progress on that (believe it or not, at least culturally). In my experience, many/most (though not all) cis women have relatively little difficulty with understanding transexual women, at least in terms of their lives post transition. Crossdressers have an "ability to be gender non-conforming without abuse" problem. That is changing MUCH more slowly, because so many of you are closeted. Our challenges are different, and so are the solutions we need. IMO, when you try to treat two groups with fundamentally different needs as one group, it slows down progress for both. Trans women, by virtue of being the out ones with no choice, are by and large paying the price.

Also, please suggest a better venue for pointing out when CDs are potentially getting something wrong, where discussion can happen afterwards. I am not aware of one.

[sometimes_miss]

why hasn't society accepted us

You've been here for almost 7 years, so I'm assuming that you have had plenty of time to read this forum's multitudinous threads about this topic. Briefly: feminine behavior in males historically has been considered a potential problem, as it could indicate the male would be less likely to hold up his responsibility in the defense of his village/tribe. Like a football line, if one person gives way, it can lead to disaster for the entire group. So feminine males are deemed a waste of food and water for any culture, as we are assumed to not be of any worth. These feelings may be simply passed down culturally, or perhaps even ingrained into us genetically, as females are generally turned off sexually by feminine behavior in males as well, and this is seen in most societies worldwide. While there are exceptions here and there, it's not common enough to overcome the generally accepted feelings that people already have about us.

Feel free to read all the other threads on this. I'll let you search, as the rest of us have already done so.

Personally, this sounds like just another 'why doesn't everyone love me' thread.

[Kate T]

Most TS on this thread, including myself, will have similar thoughts I'm afraid to Zooey, Sue, Arbon and Georgette. I'm probably not quite as strong in my views as some others (I'm too old and been wrong too many times in the past to not acknowledge that there is a distinct possibility I just don't understand something completely) but there is absolutely no doubt that the experiences of TS and CD are worlds apart. Is gender a spectrum? In all likelihood. BUT there is a huge difference between gender identity and social gender expression. At the risk of being rude, one is about an internal identity and the other is about well, just clothes (and makeup and jewellery). A man is a man whether he is wearing a dress or not when his internal attitude is still unapologetically male (really, the "weaker sex" ). As Sue mentioned, most self identified CD's strongly identify as "male", it is just that you are happy to express yourself with clothing in certain situations in a manner that is currently perceived by society as feminine. That doesn't mean your internal gender identity is non-male, it means your happy to buck society expectations of gender expression and conformity. Thats not a bad thing, in many ways it is great, what it isn't though is it isn't about identity, who you are when you are alone and naked in bed in the deep of night and no one can see you.

[Jackie7]

Continuing on the line of Zooey and Kate T, and agreeing with Kate186. Excellent discussion, thank you all.

I am not a scientist but I do read widely, I'm socially out to my friends and live more than 50% of my public time as a woman, and I've been in this domain for many many years. From the psychologists I get that we men who crossdress are not insane and are not abnormal, it is just one of the things otherwise-ordinary people do. Ok, as for The Spectrum. I think there are at least five spectrums or spectra, and they are all independent variables, your location on one doesn't say anything about where you are on the others. The spectra are:

1. Biology, anatomy. Your skeleton, genitalia, and endocrine system. You can be born M, F, and intersex, that is, anywhere in between. You can, to a certain extent, medically shift whatever you were born with. Where you are on this dimension can be independently verified, it is an observable historical fact.

2. Culturally shared beliefs, ideologies, myths and taboos. What boys like, what girls like. It is given to you by your own upbringing and cultural context, and you can shape it by your own experiences. You can end up anywhere at all on this axis.

3. Internal sense of self and identity, your own subjective belief and experience. You can be M, you can be F, you can be both, neither, gender queer, androgyne. And whatever it is for you, it is. Nobody else can know or judge.

4. Presentation of self and behavior, call-and-response in social context. I dress en femme and do my best to imitate female gestures and ways of being and relating, I blend (and/or kind people humor me), but I do not pass. It helps to separate your own sense of presentation, from how others receive you -- pink fog is always nearby.

5. Sexual preference, do you like boys, girls, both, neither, whatever. An independent variable, perhaps involved with the other dimensions but not determined. Biolopgically influenced, culturally influenced, colored by personal experience, nonetheless entirely personal and utterly inexplicable.

While we may think of these axes as spectra or dimensions, my friend Michael/Miriam says they are actually lines bent into circles, with (for some of us) the M-F ends sparking but not connecting.

[PretzelGirl]

Not sure what that means. I think by your specifications I am "on the spectrum." I would say I *am* (that is, my sense of identity is) a third gender for which we have no word at present. I am not a man. I am not a woman. I also have some fleshy bits having to do with reproduction but they have no place in a gender discussion. So how do I fit in your model?

Pat, you would fit exactly as you say. It has nothing to do with bits and has nothing to do with gender expression. It has everything to do with gender identity. You expressly state you have an identity that is not man or woman. My point is that if someone has a variation in gender expression, it has no bearing on their gender identity. Being non-binary or transsexual are variations of gender identity. Crossdressing, by itself, is gender expression.

I work with transgender people of all types and crossdressers. Have many friends of all types. I support all. What I do like to do is educate on what the difference really is. Otherwise, it is a detriment to progress as it becomes confusing for the layperson. Heck, it is obviously confusing for the non-layperson, just look at this thread.

[ReineD]

For the moment though, the research that has shown evidence of biological support for transgender identities has focused (AFAICT) exclusively on transexuals.

... and this is because CDers are, for the most part, in the closet. Transsexuals, on the other hand, are known to the medical community because they seek medical intervention. Obviously researchers can only study people who make themselves known.

There has been a limited body of research done on CDers, though, which is referenced throughout the chapter on Crossdressers (Chapter 7) in this textbook, (Counseling LGBTI Clients), for students who become gender counselors. The publisher has made chapter 7 available to read online for free. You can make note of the referenced research as you read along and you can look up the research background articles individually at scholar.google.com.

Don't be put off by the chapter's title. The author notes that even though the CDing starts out as sexually motivated for many CDers, eventually the fetish aspect diminishes and instead individuals feel self-soothed, less stressed, and more comfortable as they crossdress (p. 143).

Counseling LGBTI Clients, chapter 7: https://www.sagepub.com/sites/defaul...47510_ch_7.pdf

[Kate T]

I think that is sort of Zooey's point to an extent, you can't extrapolate from TS data to CD's. It would be like me extrapolating treatment for a cat based on experiences in the dog, yes they are both non human quadruped mammals but there are so many differences that it is basically impossible and you need studies on each species (not that I am saying CD's are a different species!). There are too many known differences between CD and TS such that you essentially have to do the research on the questions all over again.

On the upside there are a mountain of CD's out there so you should have a shed load of data points to actually get something usable from and avoid some of the screw ups that Psychiatry made with TS particularly in the early investigative era (though some of those screw ups persist even today). You just have to get out of the closet

[sweetdreams]

I think this point is getting lost. Zooey is totally correct that research findings shouldn't be applied in ways the research doesn't support. This bit, however, isn't necessarily exclusive to the transgender community. If gender identification is on a spectrum, that applies to everyone. And it really just supports the anecdotal and experiential knowledge everyone here already had.

Well said Gabriella and basically the point I was trying to make.

[Becky Blue]

The bottom line is no one actually knows, they do not know why a male wants to dress in woman's clothes, nor do they know why some people are born in the wrong body. The medical and scientific community has theories, but not facts. Perhaps in the future when they know more about our brains they will discover exactly why and today's theories may well prove to be correct or not.

We have placed labels on the various gender types and over history these have changed and will more than likely change further. Psychs and the like are all basing their opinions on their interpretation of the combined knowledge base to date.

[Pat]

2) that there is often friction between CDs and women (cis and trans) due to the appropriation of the "fun" stuff and (in some cases) the identity of woman (while "dressed") while still claiming to be men and retain that privilege.

I'm surprised and didn't understand the intensity on item 2). I would have thought we are in a similar boat and share common challenges.

I'd agree that CD's are sometimes in "a similar boat" but CD's always have the option to change boats. If you're going to go see your bank manager, you can choose to drop back to your male role and reap the extra respect lenders give to men. Trans women don't have that option. IF they worry about not being treated well at the bank, they just have to swallow hard and go in there anyway. I think that's where the intensity comes in. Zooey is out there 24/7/365.