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Thread: Psych's Opinion

  1. #51
    Crossdresser Taylor186's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat (aka Jennie) View Post
    . . . but CD's always have the option to change boats. If you're going to go see your bank manager, you can choose to drop back to your male role and reap the extra respect lenders give to men.
    This totally misses the point of what has been said earlier. And that is that CDs and TSs are wired differently. Male privilege has nothing to do with it. Male privilege doesn't enter my mind as I choose when and where to crossdress. Our culture's general dislike for mtf crossdressing (men wearing women's clothing) does, and this is generally different than and independent from male privilege.
    Last edited by Taylor186; 01-30-2017 at 01:13 PM.

  2. #52
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    Trick cyclists of all ranks don' understand murders, child molesters or violent marriage partners either....
    This is why they specialise and read up on the topic.

    Reading and experience with each case helps them understand and treat the next patient with more wisdom.

    Life is an experiment and we are all part of the systems experiment.

    Maybe yours will be the successful experiment for next week.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetdreams View Post
    I'm surprised and didn't understand the intensity on item 2). I would have thought we are in a similar boat and share common challenges. GGs may look at you and say eww. Apparently the TS community wants to look at CDers and say ew. And so the ball rolls along with various groups looking at other groups and rejecting them.
    The only issue I have with the CD's is when they start saying we are similar, come from the place, in the same boat, share the same issues, etc... which is quite often.

    It is pretty basic - CD = men liking to wear womens cloths and some going so far as to try emulating women. But they think of themselves as men

    I don't think of myself as a man no matter what I am wearing. I'm not even a very feminine woman but the thing is it does not change how I think of myself. My identity as a woman does not depend on clothing.

    The issues of a TS woman are worlds away from the issues of a crossdressing man.

  4. #54
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    OP,
    CD/gender fluid....none are considered mental illness today to my knowledge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    To several people here... If I were you, I would be VERY careful about trying to apply research done on transexual women to crossdressers.



    This. This is also one reason why there is often friction between CDs/fluid-expressing people and women (cis and trans). You claim/appropriate all of the "fun" stuff, including (in some cases) the identity of woman, without actually giving up any of your privilege and power. It's like white college kids wearing dreadlocks and claiming to be rastafari.
    Zooey,
    You might identify as binary, but not all here are. We should afford you respect and only wish for it in return. A CIS woman could have friction a trans woman since they are not the same. I would disagree with that being valid cause for friction also.

    Unless we accept all variations, we should not be disappointed when others do the same to ours.
    Last edited by Shelly Preston; 01-31-2017 at 04:50 AM. Reason: edit to keep within the rules

  5. #55
    Member Karyn Marie's Avatar
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    Such a fascinating post. I have often thought I was a woman in a past life(s), and that my feelings and desires now, are residual feelings from that past life(s). I have started seeing a therapist through the VA. I believed I was suffering from PTSD do to my former occupation (Police Officer) so she sent me to a second therapist to evaluate me further to determine a course of therapy. We talked about everything that might be causing my issues, to include my love of wearing women's clothing and my bisexuality. We also discussed what I feel like inside and I told her I feel as though I am a female inside. At that point she suggested I consider transitioning. I was so surprised that she was so astute that she knew exactly what I would like to do after just one meeting. I told her about my attraction to men, and my desire to please them, however I told her I am not gay. At that point she made a very interesting statement, "It is not gay, if you feel as though you are a woman on the inside. You are listening to your body, because you ARE female. I know I am female, but was born in the wrong body. I am starting therapy Thursday to start a possible transition, to include surgery. The VA will provide all the counseling, medication, and learning to talk and act feminine. The only thing they won't provide is the SRS, but that too is on the horizon. I will post things as I progress. Hugs to all of my sisters out there. You are all so special to me.

  6. #56
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky Blue View Post
    The bottom line is no one actually knows, they do not know why a male wants to dress in woman's clothes
    There has been some research on this, some of it extensive. It's all in the link I posted in #46. It will take time to read it though but it's worth a read if you're interested.
    Reine

  7. #57
    Aspiring Member Jackie7's Avatar
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    thank you so much ReineD for the link to the textbook, it brought a lot of info into focus for me and the general approach made sense not me too. A good read.
    xxx
    Jackie

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    The reference in post #46 is an interesting read though I would say one thing. There is still some muddying of the waters between CD and TS/TG in the article. A lot of the research papers quoted are fairly controversial and have been poorly interpreted in their application to TG/TS (notably the work by Doctor, Prince, Zucker and Blanchard). In addition many of the studies are quite old now (some pre 1990) and there has been considerable development of psychological understanding of gender expression, identity and sexuality theory since they were published. Is it an interesting assessment of CD behaviour in light of what research has been done in relation to it's reference to sexuality. Yes, possibly. However as per previous statements from Zooey et al please be very cautious about applying the contents as some sort of broad unified field theory of CD/TG/TS/GF.

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    Im not that interested in a Psych's opinion as we are all different [even in here] and all have different motivations. Some will transition. Some will never. Some will have gay sex when in mode. Some will not. Others might only be interested in dress up... and others will see that as shallow.

    A psych cannot make a sweeping statement that will cover all that + the other multitude I didnt spell out.

    Long term... looooonnnggggggggg term... Id like us to be accepted in society more than we are today. Perhaps certain people here feel accepted - thats great. You live in a good community. You have good friends.

    I dont feel accepted. And Im not even "out". I am not ashamed of what I am. But I am ashamed to reveal it. I have a few potential answers to it - but it all requires societal change. And my political power is not strong enough to drive it. I personally know my own MP - and he would not be interested. It will take generations - but eventually we will get there.

  10. #60
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    While I am not a therapist, I am actually in graduate school to become one. I will finish my degree this summer. I have been in counseling for years, both about crossdressing and a whole ton of other issues. What I can tell you is that much like every other profession, there are people who have different opinions. I recently worked with a therapist (at my job) who had no issue telling our department that he did not think that any LGBTQ person was normal, and that "they can never really be happy." This is a man who has been a therapist since the early 1990s. On the other hand, my personal therapist believes that crossdressing is no more strange than adult men who collect toy trains or obsess about fantasy football. It is a pastime that we find enjoyable. Personally I look at it as a coping mechanism. It is something from which pleasure is derived that does not hurt anyone else, so long as it is managed properly. For those out there that have seen a counselor and feel like they have not received any help, I would encourage you to shop around. Finding a therapist whose ideals are close to your own is important if personal growth is going to be achieved through the therapeutic process. At least that's my two cents.

  11. #61
    Pirate Queen wannabe Maria Blackwood's Avatar
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    All I want to do these days is shed my skin like a snake and emerge as something else. That's the best I can explain it.

  12. #62
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    There has been some research on this, some of it extensive. It's all in the link I posted in #46. It will take time to read it though but it's worth a read if you're interested.
    Reine the definition of research is according to Webster (as good as any)
    • 1careful or diligent search
    • 2studious inquiry or examination; especially : investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts, revision of accepted theories or laws in the light of new facts, or practical application of such new or revised theories or laws
    • 3the collecting of information about a particular subject


      Research is not facts it is developing theories... You continually fall back on research and studies as if they are proven facts. Lets ignore the Transworld go back 25 years and see how much research they had on food and diet 'facts' and see how wrong they were.

    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

  13. #63
    Lady By Choice Leslie Langford's Avatar
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    This has proven to be a most enlightening and fascinating thread to follow, what with the variety of differing and sometimes contradictory opinions expressed here by the various responders - all of them right within their own particular contexts and approaching the discussion from diametrically opposed directions, yet at the same time being unable to reach a consensus on what it really means to be transgender, a crossdresser, intersex, or even transsexual given the intersectionality of - or if you will...the blurred lines separating - these various concepts. A Gordian knot, indeed, to attempt to unravel, and I see many parallels here also in the way Newtonian physicists tried to construct an orderly, easily explained clockwork universe, only see it be supplanted by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle as it applies to quantum physics...a hypothesis that in essence tells us that the more we think we understand fundamental physics, the less we actually know about it. And then there is Schrödinger's elusive cat, looking at all of this with a sly, Cheshire cat-like grin as we try to make sense of it all. And so it is with trying to reconcile even amongst ourselves how the transgender community understands and defines itself...

    So, in essence, doesn't this whole discussion boil down to one basic question and intractable conundrum...namely, why have crossdressers and transsexuals been (forcibly?) lumped together under the LGBT banner along with their gay, lesbian, and bi- co-travellers when they are fundamentally far more different than they are alike? Is it mainly due to expediency, and the thought that there is perhaps strength in numbers for us here in facing an otherwise relatively unaccepting - and often hostile - general public? Is this uneasy alliance even sustainable in the long term?

    Even the umbrella term "transgender" does us a disservice here. We crossdressers for the most part know which biological sex we are and have no issue with that. It's the "gender" part we struggle with. Transsexuals identify with the opposite sex in a far different way and on a far more fundamental level, and in ways that the average crossdresser can never truly understand. For them, "playing for/with the other team", so to speak, becomes an imperative, whereas for us crossdressers - while some might call it a fetish, an obsession, or even an addiction - we just dabble at it...it doesn't become an all-consuming 24/7/365 reality. Turning their backs on their former lives and becoming their true selves, on the other hand, is the only viable option for many transsexuals short of suicide. And isn't the indiscriminate use of the word "transgender" in popular culture these days when people actually mean "transsexual" just one more contributing factor in muddying the waters here? Surely it's become common knowledge by now that sex and gender are not necessarily the same things.

    Isn't it time, then, for the "T" contingent within the current "LGBT family" to spin itself off from the larger group, let us go our separate ways, and leave each faction free to focus fully on its own issues while seeking solutions (including the ultimate Holy Grail of full societal acceptance) in ways that work uniquely for us?

  14. #64
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    Leslie, I would argue that actual crossdressers don't really even struggle with gender identity. You struggle with gender expression, which is rather fundamentally different.

    I have mixed feelings on the association of T with LGB, as there are plenty of both pros and cons for it (for all involved, though the LGB presently suffer most of the cons to be honest). In the grand scheme of things, I think it's still a net positive, though others disagree.

    I have no mixed feelings whatsoever on whether transexuals should be lumped in with crossdressers/drag queens/transvestites/gender non-conforming/gender-fluid/etc. people. We shouldn't. It doesn't make any sense, because we have next to nothing in common.

    Plenty of people see it as a negative thing (including some people I count as friends), but I have zero issues whatsoever with being called a transexual separatist. If there was a way for me to secede from the "trans community", I would do it in a heartbeat. Stealth is the closest thing available, and given recent events in the US, I'm seriously considering it as a strategy going forward.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  15. #65
    Pirate Queen wannabe Maria Blackwood's Avatar
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    It's weird! It's almost like everyone is different! /s I've been out as a B for a long time, took up CD, and am now dealing with an increasing gender issue of some sort. Not sure if I qualify as a T under everyone's definitions or if I'm just N for nuts. Maybe there's not a single phenomena occurring that can be quantized down into a Grand Unified equation of gender. Or a letter. Maybe some day I'll find a place without labels, but I suspect it's Point Nemo.
    Last edited by Maria Blackwood; 02-02-2017 at 08:50 AM.

  16. #66
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    Great discussion. Love the physics analogies. I identify as a cd. As we try to put things in simple categories in science, we often find its not so simple. Is it a particle or is it a wave, for example? And Zooey, you draw a sharp distinction. But is it really that simple? Maybe this is just a reflection about myself not being sure where I fall in the spectrum.

  17. #67
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    From the outside world, we appear similar, and depending upon the viewers opinion, a TS is the same as a TG, is the same as a Cd, drag queen or Homosexual. Just varying degrees of delusion!

    I think it is difficult, however, as a large portion (not all) of our self image is derived by our experience and our desire to be accepted in general. Thereby some CDS find through discover that they are TS, or that they in fact aren't, but questioned it as a means of resolving confirming self identity and congruence with what they THINK they should be.

    And possibly there really is such a thing as non binary.

    Now as far as sharing needs, both TS and CD do have a need for the public to be better informed if either want to be treated as they wish. This commonality will continue to bind us together even as we have great differences.

    But back to the original point, there is enough disagreement in the "proffesional" community, that care in selection needs to be taken.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meghan4now View Post
    Now as far as sharing needs, both TS and CD do have a need for the public to be better informed if either want to be treated as they wish. This commonality will continue to bind us together even as we have great differences.
    Hmm? Muslims have a need for the public to be better informed, just like women, union members, teachers, and a host of other groups. We don't lump all of them together because the information more people need to have is different in every case.

    Crossdressers need people to understand that men can wear dresses and shouldn't get beat up over it. Trans women need people to specifically understand that we're women, not crossdressers. In what way is that a meaningful commonality?
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  19. #69
    Senior Member Suzanne F's Avatar
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    On the point of stealth I will disagree with Zooey, I am not going back into a closet. while I may be considered pretty by some I do not pass. I transitioned in place in the middle of work, visibility in the community, recovery community and my son's school friends and parents. Everyone knows what I am. I will wear it proudly and I will not shirk when the topic comes up. I will not be humiliated or separated from society. In that respect I do see a bond in the LGBT community. We all faced humiliation as a means to control who we are. As far as cross dressers and Trans women go yes I see major differences. However, I do see where the public will and does assume we are the same. Again, both groups have faced humiliation in order to drive us into the closet. It strikes me as ironic that what stealth Trans women do is the same as a cross dresser who hides from everyone. I respect anyone's right to be stealth or in the closet but I will not go quietly!
    Suzanne
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  20. #70
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    I love you Suzanne, and I think I understand the point you're trying to make, but I don't see how living openly as who you really are 24/7 can possibly be considered "in the closet". All I would be doing is ceasing to acknowledge who/what I never really was, but certainly am not anymore. I don't tell everybody I had a birthmark removed when I was younger either...
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  21. #71
    Senior Member Suzanne F's Avatar
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    I like your analogy of the birthmark removal. I guess in my case it is like having a horrible disfigurement on your face and then having it removed. While no one has to bring it up anymore, everyone knows it was there before. Then let's say there was a movement to discriminate against people with such disfigurement. I could not be silent on that subject to protect my new found status, especially when everyone around me knew how it looked before.
    Suzanne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanne F View Post
    while I may be considered pretty by some I do not pass.
    I look at the beautiful face in your avatar and wonder, how can that be? I can't see a man anywhere. I'll take you at your word, but I simply can't imagine it.

  23. #73
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    Leslie, good to talk to you again!

    I agree with a lot you say. A couple of thoughts. Intersex..... I firmly believe that we will find that those that are transgender (have a gender identity issue) will be determined to be intersex because it will be a difference in the brain. We see some links above describing that physical difference, but it isn't generally accepted we are intersex yet. That is probably a matter of time. As it is, I don't think there is a lot of conflating with Intersex and any other identity because the education on Intersex is still in its infancy. When I ask people what they know about Transgender individuals, they show they lack knowledge. When I ask them about Intersex people, they have never heard of it in general. (PS: I am both Transsexual and Intersex).

    As far as separating out the "T", there is Ben Franklin's quote "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.". As someone who is actively working in non-profits, I can tell you two things. One is that we need the numbers to keep the fight strong. If we start breaking apart, it is like tying a hand behind your back. Second, a lot of the money that is infused into LGBT organizations will stay with the LGB organizations. I see trans organizations and they are working with a pittance of the income that the LGBT organizations do. It is a numbers game, we are less than 1% of the population and they are so much more. So no matter what we may think our differences are, we need to be together. And here in Utah, I am fortunate and extremely happy that all realize that. Back several years ago while a non-discrimination law was being fought for, the leaders were told that if they left the "T" behind, they might get it through. The leaders said that no one would be left behind and we lost that year. We did win eventually, but if they had left us, the LGB would have gotten theirs and we probably never would have seen the light of day.

  24. #74
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becky Blue View Post
    Reine the definition of research ...
    Yes, all of that. I know.

    And yes, research is theory that is tested and reported on, including the theories that evolved into the microchip and smartphones, medications, and anything that exists in this century that did not in the last one. lol. The idea is, we ask questions, test, report, establish a knowledge base, and build upon it. When the research is replicable, then a full picture begins to emerge. This is why we no longer believe in the rape myth, for example (the idea that women who dress provocatively are asking for it and it is not the rapist's fault if he rapes). Social studies are also a soft science, but there are ways to evolve our understanding and get to deeper truths that can even have an effect on rape laws. The research that forms the basis for this textbook chapter is based on the experience of crossdressers and their families.

    How do you think we went from believing that transsexualism was a moral failing or a disease in the last century, to having a standards of care now for people who transition? Research.

    In any case, the textbook chapter I posted cites several peer-reviewed and published research that the author draws on to instruct. If you read through it, you will see. They are in parentheses, after the sentence where the author discusses a concept. You'll find the research author name and article publication date. This is done to avoid plagiarism and to show that the author is indeed using peer-reviewed material (and that it is not merely his "opinion"). You'll be able to glean the title of the article from the idea that is presented in the sentence.

    When you find a citation, go to "scholar.google.com" and enter the author name in the search bar, with a word from the concept that is discussed. When results pop up, you can check that it is the correct article by the date and if the article title makes sense in context. If you're lucky, the entire article will be in PDF format, and if you read through that, you'll discover how the author conducted his research. If there is no PDF available, you'll be directed to the publisher's website or an academic journal where you can read the abstract. Some of these sites will have a downloadable PDF. Others will ask for payment. Or, you can go to a university library and look up the articles there.

    Or, you can simply buy the textbook (used for $31 on Amazon) and look at the full reference list in the back, for full details of all the research cited: title, author, date, journal. The references are on page 259, but google books does not include that page in the preview:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=z4...page&q&f=false

    Good luck!
    Reine

  25. #75
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    Zooey,

    Because the public confuses us, and there is a common bias against us, the education of the differentiation is shared. No one needs to be taught that crossdressers are not muslims, and union members are not transsexuals (although crossdressing Muslim teachers in the union probably exist). But precisely to the point that you have harpped on ad nauseum, the public does need to be educated to the difference between CDS and Ts. You said it yourself. In this we are bound, because in the public eye we are bound. But if you want to be contrarian, go ahead. Seems to be the marching order of the day.

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