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Thread: MGTOW: A possible inspiration for DADT-afflicted CDers?

  1. #51
    Senior Member Suzanne F's Avatar
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    You know I can't even believe what I am reading here. I would love to just see a few of you dedicated men's right advocates show up to a local men's gathering in your best pencil skirt with your 5 inch heels with your new Sephora mulberry lip stain. I didn't believe it when TS women talked about how male cross dressers could be such male pigs. I just didn't believe that men who emulated women could have such opinions. Yes the average bubba who was scared to death of femininity but not cross dressers. But then agin these are men who are afraid that their buddies won't like them anymore if they know they like wearing panties.

    Yes there are less than perfect females. God knows there are many more less than good men. Last I checked very few marriages are arranged in the US. How has the man become a victim to the calculating woman? I dare say he bears some blame in that situation. My wife is my equal partner. Equal is not a difficult concept. She had the choice to leave when I transitioned but chose to stay. We choose every day whether we want to be together. Neither is a victim. I respect her too much to believe she is a victim of my transition. She puts you bunch of whiny brats to shame!
    Life Is One Big Dilation

  2. #52
    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Well said, Suzanne! If you're not happy? Husband or wife? Find the door and walk out! How can u keep making excuses while squandering your life? Not to us, we sympathize for 5 seconds and then move on.

    But, to yourselves!?
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  3. #53
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    This argument rumbles on in the background on the forum most of the time.

    There are so many reasons to quit on a marriage as there are to try and retain one. This goading of cowardice or courage to walk out or not is ridiculous. DADT is not a good situation but it has to be put into context of all the other things that a marriage brings . I have to accept DADT because it's how my wife deals with my dressing , she still needs me as a husband to support her and hopefully bring some happiness into her life. Our children still need the support of both of us and we have grandchildren that have to be cared for when they go to work. I still have an 88 year old mother who is well at the moment but may need our support as she ages. I do accept I've openly said I live a double life , my wife has commented on that but to walk out would put a huge load on my wife's shoulders, whether you think I'm a nice guy or not I try and accept my responsibilities .
    I believe I would be happier if we could separate but there are no guarantees , I'm sure there are as many regret that move as there are happy ones .

    CDing is a no win situation someone is always going to be hurt , I don't believe anyone who says different. Some times I'm afraid it's good to have a rant about it , Leslie gave us that option with her OP . Ranting isn't a crime sometimes you have to let it out and the forum is often the only place where we can air those views.

    I don't consider myself a nice guy but just a Mr. Average, my kids still love me and the feelings for my grandchildren would be greatly missed, but I can do nothing about the other feelings Cding brings , they all know that but don't fully understand. I could see the hurt on their faces when they thought mum and dad were going to split up , in the end I just couldn't do it to them.
    Last edited by Teresa; 02-08-2017 at 02:08 AM.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Suzanne F's Avatar
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    No worries if someone decides to stay. But don't blame it on the wife. It isn't feminisms fault if a man chooses to stay married to a woman who cannot witness her husband cross dressing. That has nothing to do with men asserting their lost rights!
    Last edited by Lorileah; 02-08-2017 at 04:57 PM. Reason: no need to quote post above yours
    Life Is One Big Dilation

  5. #55
    Woman first, Trans second
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    Exactly right Suzanne, in both your replies since mine.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  6. #56
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Zooey and Suzanne,
    As far as I'm aware the OP wasn't about feminism, it was a suggested term to come to terms with DADT.

    You chose to sidetrack the thread with the feminism angle , my comments refer to the OP about DADT. If you want to bang the drum again about feminism and misogyny why don't you start your own thread .
    Last edited by Teresa; 02-08-2017 at 10:56 AM.

  7. #57
    Woman first, Trans second
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    Actually, this entire thread has been about misogyny, since well before I jumped into it. This thread, whether you choose to see it or not, is about a bunch of men in dresses hitching their wagons to/finding inspiration in an incredibly toxic and deeply misogynistic movement, so that they can feel empowered in continuing to blame their wives for things that are in no way, shape, or form their wives' fault. It is about a bunch of men who feel they're owed something, and who aren't willing to give anything up or change to get it.

    It is the height of anti-feminism, and it is sad.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  8. #58
    Junior Member Marianne S's Avatar
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    In view of the direction this thread has taken, I would like to offer

    A MODEST PROPOSAL

    I haven't even bothered reading this MGTOW thing, but I think much of the damage done by feminism and the sex war it's stirred up over the past generation, particularly the breakdown of marriage and family, could be cured with two very simple but radical changes. Not to mention quieting all this needless furor over gay "marriage" as well.

    First, ABOLISH marriage altogether. Replace it by giving anyone who chooses the right to declare themselves "domestic partners" for tax and other purposes in any particular year.

    That way, anyone who chose to could still be a stay-at-home housewife (or househusband) while the other partner works, and the couple could pool their income for tax purposes, thus retaining the financial benefits couples enjoy at present when one partner supports a non-earning partner. In fact they'd be better off than they are under today's tax code, whether both partners worked and earned money, or only one did.

    The same system would work for gay couples, and not just "couples" either. Why shouldn't a son or daughter helping to support an elderly parent, say, pool their income and claim the same tax breaks? It would even work for a ménage * trois, or indeed a ménage of any number. Other benefits could also be extended to one's domestic partners, such as the right to be included in a partner's health insurance plan.

    But such an arrangement would only be continued as long as both partners chose to continue it. The abolition of marriage would also abolish the concept of "divorce" and everything that goes with it, such as "alimony" or "spousal support," "divorce settlements" and so forth. If anyone chooses to leave a domestic partnership, they walk away with whatever's theirs at the time, and that's it! Since feminism gave women the right to jobs and equal pay for the same work, marriage is no longer indispensable as it once was to support females economically. There's no reason why anyone, man or woman, shouldn't support themselves if they want to live alone. There's no reason why anyone should have to continue paying money to someone who has left and is no longer giving them anything of value in return, just because that person used to be a "partner" of theirs.

    Second, ABOLISH so-called "child support." If anyone wants the PRIVILEGE of raising a child, they should either pay for it themselves, or arrange to secure and retain a partner who is willing to help them and support them in the endeavor. There's no reason why anyone should have to pay another person to enjoy the REWARDS of raising a child if they themselves are not permitted to enjoy the same pleasure of a live-in relationship with the child.

    I think this scheme would have a salutary effect on our deplorably decadent society. There would be a revival of "marriage" (in the sense of true long-term relationships) by the kinds of couples who OUGHT to be married. That's to say, mature, caring couples who are actually capable of getting on with one another. More people who want to continue enjoying the benefits of a partnership will choose their partners wisely in the first place, picking someone they think they can get on with in the long term, instead of some narcissistic so-and-so who nevertheless has money they can rip off in a divorce. They'll also be more "on their toes" in their behavior toward one another if they want to continue enjoying the benefits of a partnership, which can otherwise be all too easily discontinued.

    A great many people who ought NOT to be married will no longer do so, because they can no longer use marriage as a mechanism to exploit an ex-partner for unearned financial benefits. And a great many well-intentioned, loving people will no longer be AFRAID to form a partnership, as too many men are today, because they'll no longer be at the same risk of having both their children AND their money stolen by a predatory ex-partner.

    As a bonus, more children will be raised by parents who OUGHT to be parents--that is, because they love and want the children for themselves, not just as a "meal ticket."

    And wait, there's more! As an additional bonus, the whole rotten "divorce industry" will collapse. Hordes of greedy lawyers who encourage conflict and hatred by making money out of playing "Let's You and Him Fight" will have to find new jobs doing something that might actually be constructive and helpful to society, instead of destructive as it is now. Any takers?

  9. #59
    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    I must agree Marianne. So much so that when I'm elected prez. I will pass a law requiring everyone must pass a test before getting married and another before having a child!

    And, Teresa? I see no reason u can't separate and still do EVERYTHING u list as reasons why u don't. I did. And, the looks on my children's faces were much happier when they saw how much happier I and my ex were living apart. Maybe yours will, too. U both can't fake happiness all the time. Kids know!
    Last edited by docrobbysherry; 02-08-2017 at 01:45 PM.
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  10. #60
    Lady By Choice Leslie Langford's Avatar
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    WOW!...Just WOW!, Zooey

    That was one epic, breath-taking, misandrist rant that you just treated us to here in Post #46. It easily tops all of your previous diatribes on the same topic.

    I never realized before in reading all of your past posts just what an anxiety-ridden burden true gender dysphoria must really be, and - as a trans woman - how much you clearly hated your former biologically male incarnation, causing you now feed obsessively on those past issues and insecurities to continuously bash the male population at large - be it "nice guys", "bad boys", or anything male in between. And then there are those pesky heterosexual crossdressers who inhabit the fringes of those two worlds and who are clearly nothing but whiny, shameless poseurs in your esteemed opinion, and who need to be put in their place and skewered at every available opportunity...

    So tell us...feeling as you do, why do you insist on trolling the crossdressing forums to launch your occasional misandrist barbs as opposed to staying in that echo chamber of like-minded folks who populate the transsexual forums? Is this how you get your jollies and "rage against the machine"?

    And while we're on the topic of exclusionary views and related actions...just curious?...what have the TERFs done for individuals like yourself lately to make you feel good about yourselves in the name of tolerance and inclusivity? Are you still standing there with your nose pressed against the window looking longingly inside, knowing full well that you will always be considered a persona non grata amongst that branch of the "sisterhood"? Or is it more a case of adopting the stance of comedian Grouch Marx, who one famously quipped that he would never join a club that would have him as a member?

  11. #61
    Woman first, Trans second
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    One, if you think that was actual misandry, you are out of your damn mind. Equitability is not misandry, and equality can clearly feel like oppression when you're the one who was always on top. Suck it up, buttercup.

    Two, news flash - feminism is not TERFs. TERFs are an incredibly small radical (hence the R) branch of feminism, and they're unpopular amongst feminists (which drives them batty, just FYI). I will argue feminism with you once you actually learn what it is from a real source, not the red pill MRA bull-plop you've been citing.

    You guys need modern feminism more than anybody else, and your resentment of it is frankly fascinating. Fascinating, and horrifying.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  12. #62
    Member XemmaX's Avatar
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    word! trans exclusionary radical feminists and their anti sex worker counter parts are not popular in the modern feminist movement.

  13. #63
    Senior Member Suzanne F's Avatar
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    Teresa
    Did you read the OP? Leslie brought up this men's movement and then bemoaned wives holding all the power in a DADT relationship. Then many men piled on and derided the feminist movement while again blaming their lack of freedom in their wives. I don't respond very much in this section but to me it required someone to point out the victim hood of a bunch of privileged males hiding in their closet. As far as Zooey I don't always agree but I respect her. She dared tell the world her truth with no guarantee of acceptance. Not many people in this discussion can say that.
    Suzanne
    Life Is One Big Dilation

  14. #64
    Junior Member Marianne S's Avatar
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    Leslie, it's not worth wasting one's time arguing with anyone who insists on spouting the same old self-serving lie that men are somehow "privileged." It doesn't make any difference if feminists have been playing victim by claiming the same thing for fifty years; that still doesn't make it true! For thousands of years people insisted that "the sun goes around the earth," but saying so didn't make THAT true either--as Galileo for one pointed out.

    Anyone who buys this nonsense about men being the "privileged" sex should educate themselves by reading, for instance, Warren Farrell's classic The Myth of Male Power, or Jack Kammer's excellent If Men Have All the Power, How Come Women Make the Rules? (which is available free).

    For those men finding themselves stuck with a wife who refuses to accept their CDing, or some other aspect of their personality, it would all be fine and dandy if they COULD just walk away--losing nothing except a wife that they weren't getting on with anyway. But all too frequently the man who does that is punished by a law that far more often than not privileges the female to help herself to a chunk of his money that he earns and to take his children from him as well. Needless to say, that can also cripple his ability to find and set up home with a new wife who is better suited to him. No wonder men feel they can't afford to leave. Of course, this isn't just about CDing, and is a prime reason why so many men are avoiding marriage today. Abolish those female privileges and we'll have a more level playing field. The truth is that too many "feminists" today don't want "equality"; they want excuses to make females superior to men.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie Langford View Post
    And while we're on the topic of exclusionary views and related actions...just curious?...what have the TERFs done for individuals like yourself lately to make you feel good about yourselves in the name of tolerance and inclusivity? Are you still standing there with your nose pressed against the window looking longingly inside, knowing full well that you will always be considered a persona non grata amongst that branch of the "sisterhood"? Or is it more a case of adopting the stance of comedian Grouch Marx, who one famously quipped that he would never join a club that would have him as a member?
    Leslie, I am trying to process this. Either you are saying we are persona non grata among TERFs, to which I say good riddance, or we are persona non grata among women, which I say experience tells me different. I am not excluded from anything that I can tell. I am invited to all types of activities. So coming from my experience, life is good in transition and I am treated right as a women, by women, with women.

    Marianne, you have a lot of hate built up. Either way, there are piles of proof that women are well behind men and still fighting. Making 78 cents on the dollar... Look at the cabinet and Congress..... Look at total CEOs in the Fortune 500.. I could go on and on. Anyone that says women are ahead of men are not looking at all.

  16. #66
    Woman first, Trans second
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    Not to mention (for example) how having insurance plans reliably covering birth control for women is apparently a big problem, but covering viagra is clearly necessary... Men have routinely ensured that they have agency over women's bodies in numerous ways that women have never had over men's bodies.

    Incidentally, that same statement applies to trans women as well. My insurance is happy to cover any procedures that would make men more likely to have sex with me, but are apparently staunchly opposed to covering other things that would actually improve my condition.
    Last edited by Zooey; 02-08-2017 at 08:09 PM.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  17. #67
    Junior Member Marianne S's Avatar
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    Sue, I get rather tired of people who don't know me from Eve projecting feelings onto me that I don't have (such as "hatred"). I at least have been lucky in the marriage stakes. It's other men who have all too often been shafted by today's system.

    The fact that more men are "making" the laws in Congress doesn't make a darn bit of difference when so many women VOTE and put those men in power, and politicians too often kowtow to what women want as a result. Even Karl Marx didn't make the mistake of overlooking dynamics like that.

    As for this supposed "78 cents on the dollar," why on earth SHOULD women have the same average "earned" income as men when so many women don't choose to devote as much of their lives to paid employment as men do, and/or don't choose to do as many of the more demanding (and higher paid) jobs that more men do? There are plenty of female executives around, earning a lot more than most men do, but not as many women go for these jobs with the same singleminded devotion that so many men do. In politics too, far more women than men avoid running for high office, partly (though not entirely) because many women complain that the rough-and-tumble of campaigning is "too dirty" for them. They leave the "dirty" jobs to men! But if they don't want a "dirty" job, they can't expect to get paid for it, or have the public power and prestige that goes with it.

    Society-wide, a far better basis for comparing income is to ask how much money women RECEIVE, on average, from ALL sources--not just alimony, divorce settlements, "child support" and the like, but all the money husbands and male partners routinely give their wives, which is massive. If a wife earns less than her husband, typically that difference is more than made up for by money that he gives her. That knocks that "78 cent" figure clean out the window.

    In any case, why would anyone expect women and men to occupy identical roles in a society (in the same numbers) when the sexes are biologically different? If they did, it would mean one sex or the other, or both, is being "bent out of shape," against their collective natural instincts. A far more meaningful question is the one Jack Kammer asked in his e-book:

    "Womenfirsters focus attention on who earns more money and who has what jobs, but a much more important question is who lives happier, more emotionally satisfying lives. Why don’t they ask that one?"

    However, the fact that feminists (of what Kammer called the "womenfirster" variety) COMPLAIN so much is not an indicator that women as a whole are "less satisfied" with their lives than men are. It's because feminists just LOVE to complain, and all too often, men DON'T! More men prefer to be "doers" rather than complainers. Unfortunately that works to men's disadvantage in a modern society where "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." Men need to do more complaining, not less. Feminists, no matter how many concessions have been made to them, have never stopped finding more to complain about, and if there isn't anything, they'll invent something, as the following vintage quiz from a quarter of a century ago suggests:

    Male Gender Bias Test

  18. #68
    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Marianne, I won't argue with u. I'm sure there r others here will do that sufficiently.

    Let me just say, u must not live in Calif. Because in my divorce and many of my friends, both genders we're treated equally. Whoever makes the most money pays. Whoever wishes to take the children gets them. If a fair and equal exchange schedule cannot be decided by the couple or their attorneys, the court decides it for them. Based on their work, health, etc, schedules and availability for whatever reason. The gender of the parties involved is NOT a consideration.
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  19. #69
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    I may not be much of a "man", I am rather gender nonconforming and have never been good at anything traditionally masculine. But, I am still male, and I am really tired of being guilt tripped and blamed for everything that befalls every women in the world. I don't have "dominion" over anyone, I barely have dominion over my own body. Just because someone has a penis doesn't mean they are a rapist, an abuser, or an oppressor.

    And I am one of those nice guys. And every woman I ever did or was possibly going to be involved with knew about my dressing, I didn't lie or conceal anything... and I have spent most of my adult life alone. I have my own unique resentment.

    And how much money one makes is not a lone indicator of quality of life. I think mothers do a pretty important job, that is just as important as any CEO of a corporation, if not more so.
    Last edited by Vickie_CDTV; 02-08-2017 at 11:55 PM.

  20. #70
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Wow what a thread, certainly some passion displayed by many here. I think MGTOW and CDGTOW are really bad ideas. As a guy I cannot in any way shape or form see why there is a need for MGTOW, does the world really need a group of guys banding together to help each other get protection from women???

    As for CDGTOW, those of you in unhappy DADT marriages you have a load of options available. You could move on, you could try sort out the underlying problem that may well be unconnected to your CDing, or you could continue living that way. But in what way could a group of likeminded sufferers help each other or change the world in a better way. I could not see how CDGTOW would make the slightest difference to any unaccepting wife.
    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

  21. #71
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    I am not going to go on a diatribe nor call anyone out by name. I have enough going on right now that I must admit I don't want to wholeheartedly enter this debate but I do have to ask one rhetorical question.

    Why would anyone that either A. Feels their gender is feminine or B. Just fantasizes about being female - have so much disdain for the group they desire to be? Yeah call me out for not engaging. I don't have the energy or time right now. Just taking my pot shot from the peanut gallery but I think it's legit.

  22. #72
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    This has gone in several directions, I think we will close it down before someone gets hurt
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