I'm 'lettered' out. Isn't it enough for me to just be a transgendered, bisexual crossdresser ina a DADT marriage? I'm really O.K. with that.
I'm 'lettered' out. Isn't it enough for me to just be a transgendered, bisexual crossdresser ina a DADT marriage? I'm really O.K. with that.
Yeah I am too old for this silliness too.
I'm tired of 20 something know it all types that just want to argue and call me a homophobe (that happened on another web site).
As long as CDgtow doesn't end up being apart of LGBTQ who then goes to start some whiny movement on tumbler and becomes the male version of feminism I guess its cool
Mgtow needs to die a fiery death. It is the ideological equivalent of a dish-water smoothie.
#define institutionalized feminism.Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
Also you seem to be implying that feminism is a bad thing?
And men didn't control women over millenia?and is meant to empower men against the way women often try to control us to do their bidding through manipulation, subtle coercion, guilt, and that old standby - the promise of great sex if we just toe the line.
DADT crossdressing is most certainly of the crossdressers choosing. THEY are the ones that CHOSE to not have an adult conversation with the spouse and took the "dark and easy path" of simply not talking about it. What the little wifey doesn't know or see won't hurt her right? Now lets go down to the Water Buffalo lodge and watch some stag films and play poker with playing cards with naked women on them.And yet...for those of us trapped in miserable DADT relationships not of our choosing,
Why do you see the relationship in terms of power? Isn't that a rather old fashioned mindset? YOU are the ones who choose to not deal with "This thing of ours of varying kinds" like an adult. You CHOSE to give veto power so you wouldn't have to have the hard conversations, and now you complain about it?and where our wives or SO's seem to hold all the power that we have reluctantly yielded to them when it comes to controlling our crossdressing for the sake of peace,
You want to end DADT crossdressing? Encourage more CD's to grow up and start treating the wife as an equal and not do the "father knows best" thing.and one that will liberate us from DADT once and for all?
What do you mean "idea", the transfolk here who identify as feminists ARE feminists. After all there were men at Seneca Falls and there were male founding members of NOW.
Which they did and still do in certain ways in certain areas.and they will tell you all about how men have held women back
That's what I was thinking.
Misogyny exists, it isn't a buzzword. The word itself has been around since 1650.
It isn't, but it takes TWO to make a DADT.What about all the CD's here in DADT relationships that are miserable how is that acceptable?
let me guess, blue collar older rural southern women?I guess I'm weird because most of the women I know think the whole feminist "movement" currently is a bunch of bs.
Those societal changes you're describing there are some of the reasons crossdressers can go out in public without much hassle.
They're acronyms, which have been around since ancient times, but which have become more prevalent since WWII.
FDR, (who had been signing letters "FDR" since childhood), used POTUS in his messages to Churchill during the war. POTUS is a LOT faster to write than President of the United States of America, same goes for SCOTUS.I refuse to call the president POTUS, even though in this case it is a compliment, or the supreme court SCOTUS, even though it reminds me of the body part it reminds me of.
So you're okay with stereotyping young people, but don't want CD's stereotyped? After all, those young people (and young people in the past) are another reason why CD's can go out without much hassle. Would you want to be stereotyped as that Drinkin/Druggin/Fightin/Bubba-bad-boy you were? As for homophobia, you sure a bit of that doesn't live on as mental residue from your Bad Boy Bubba days, because some of your reactionary bubba views on women and society as a whole obviously do.
Right.
Veronica
If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.
The REAL problem is that nice guys finish last, at least by our material world definition of success. True, women have been subjected to a second class status, more or less throughout history. But more or less. There are many instances in history where women have been closer to equal. Also men and women both wield power, but by using different skills and strengths. Men have brute force, but women hold the cards in areas of influence and providing important social services.
What I think we currently see is that women have gained much in legal protection for equal opportunity and treatment. And in fact have gained some advantages. They are given consideration for minority owned business for set asides and preferable loans and terms. But this isn't the area they have the greatest power, (and it really doesn't affect 90% of the population anyway).
No where they've gained power is in the social contract. Women do get more consideration in Divorce court (if they can afford an attorney ), but more so in the court of opinion. Basically, it is fine for women to think about men as "selfish dogs", and men are denigrated as such on a regular basis, as is reflected in modern media stereotypes. The bumbling idiot, the selfish sex crazed husband, the lying husband wasting money on toys beer and sports, etc.
This attitude is prevalent in our society. However it only has a negative effect on the "nice" guy. The guy who wants to avoid being a jerk, the guy who doesn't want to be "that guy". There are still lots of class A A-holes out there, that just don't care. But because of them, and add this current stereotype, the poor schmuck that just wants a bit of love and maybe the occasional intimate evening gets screwed (is that word ok here?)
But the power that women have is only relevant to the nice guy. Guys that don't care, that don't stick around and try to make their relationship work, that don't mind being know as as A hole just roll right over them. Making it worse for the next nice guy.
We don't need MGTOW, we need better public role models, both men and women. But instead we get The Bachelor, The Kardashians, The Apprentice and Housewives.
Last edited by Meghan4now; 02-06-2017 at 05:22 PM.
I'm sorry but it is my belief that we are in control of our future if your wife is being disrespectful of you then it's time for a change you did not ask to be a cder me I will not go back to a DADT relationship I deserve better and if I respect a woman enough to tell her then she can make her choice to except it or go my intent is not to hurt anyone in my family it is to become the best person I can be and love myself and be who I am and love should be unconditional
hugs
Ronda
Sooo, Veronica...back to picking my posts apart line-by-line as you default back into your "schoolmarm" mode, are we? Got the old red marking pencils all sharpened up and ready to go? Do I have to brace myself for an "F" failing grade now?
And most tellingly, hadn't the two of us already done this very same dance on this Forum some years ago? I didn't appreciate your patronizing tone and your overall pedagogical, didactic slice/dice/dissect approach to commenting on my posts back then, and I certainly don't now, either.
I'm not prepared to go along with this passive-aggressive nonsense by dignifying any of your musings with a response. I said what I had to say on this subject in my previous posts, and I believe that I was abundantly clear in the points that I was trying to make there, so no real need to drill any deeper. If you disagree with any of them, that's certainly your prerogative, as it is mine to ignore your silly nit-picking.
By the way, if you really feel that fact-checking is your forte and your calling, there is a certain occupant of the Oval Office in Washington who would greatly benefit from your expertise in this area...
There are not enough "likes" on the planet for this. As a "nice guy", I cannot agree more. And believe me, I resent it with ever fiber of my being.
Leslie,
Am I missing the point here ? You didn't ask for comments on MGTOW but CDGTOW and made that distinction. I commented on the latter in relation to your connection with DADT. I can't see why everyone is getting hot under the collar about MGTOW when you raised objections to it in your OP.
If that's the case then my comments are still valid in relation to CDGTOW ! Should I go back and read it again or should so many others ?
I think DADT in the context of one's spouse is obviously a non-confrontational choice, and probably among the least desirable. (I don't intend to go into any relationship without confronting my partner about Cosa Nostra or however you want to put it. It's a deal breaker, inter alia.) I do not deny that DADT can potentially happen after the issue is discussed either, in any case.
I have for the most part borne witness to the worst possible poster boys of the MGTOW movement, and I disagree strongly with their attitudes and worldviews. Perhaps it's a symptom of most extremists within civil movements, but a lot of their rhetoric strikes me as reactionary.
tl;dr - CDs need to advocate for themselves (and others under the trans umbrella) in order to be accepted in society; MGTOWs are not the horse to hitch our wagon to.
I'm on the side of VeronicaMoonlit, TinaMC and XemmaX; MGTOWs - however they may spin it - are largely a misogynist MRA splinter movement. Micki_Finn has it right when she says that divorce is always an option - if you can't be true to yourself in a relationship, then you'll either be miserable or divorced, and the choice is up to you. If you have a certain vision of how your relationship should go (including CDing), make it clear to your partner before you marry and sign a pre-nuptial agreement.
What we need is a wholesale rewriting of what it means to be a man and a rejection of the toxic BS that compels men to adhere to rigid gender stereotypes. Standing with feminists and trans people is probably the best way to go about it, IMO. I'd be all in favour of a CD-advocacy group/movement, but I have a feeling that most MGTOW/MRAs are caught up in the same masculinity bind and you won't find much support there.
The pendulum swings from side to side, and right now it tends to be on the side of women where certain things are concerned - I think this is a good thing because society needs to be forced to a point of equality (because it damn well won't go there on its own) before we can do away with codified gender biases (there are enough systemic and implicit ones at the moment that there's still a long way to go). If you want to equalize things like child custody, advocate for it and try to change the system. Spousal & child support (at least here in Canada) are at least theoretically gender-neutral in their calculation. Don't even mention 'false accusations of rape' because they are insignificant compared to the number of sexual assaults that go unreported.
Last edited by Mayo; 02-07-2017 at 10:11 AM.
This what explained to you before by myself and ReineD, don't you remember? It is not "picking apart" it is the standard interleaved style of quoting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Interleaving was the predominant reply style in the Usenet discussion lists, years before the existence of the WWW and the spread of e-mail and the Internet outside the academic community.In the interleaved reply style (also called "inline reply", "point-by-point rebuttal", or, sometimes, "bottom posting"), the original message is broken into two or more sections, each followed by a specific reply or comment. A reply in inline style may also include some top-posted or bottom-posted comments that apply to the whole reply message, rather than to a specific point.
Interleaving was also common originally in e-mail, because many internet users had been exposed to Usenet newsgroups and other Internet forums, where it is still used.[/quote]
In fact we have to multi-quote button to ENABLE the ability to interleave! I also remember you getting a lecture on criticizing posting style, which is what you are doing rather than replying to what I actually wrote.
Any "F" would be from getting inspiration from MGTOW for what is essentially a more extreme form DADT where the crossdresser does what he wants no matter what.as you default back into your "schoolmarm" mode, are we? Got the old red marking pencils all sharpened up and ready to go? Do I have to brace myself for an "F" failing grade now?
It isn't personal, why are you acting as if it is? Look, I can be patronizing to noobs, I freely admit that. But you know as well as I do that too many CD's are staying at the clueless noob stage longer than they ought and encouraging DADT is part of that continuing problem that needs to be dealt with.I didn't appreciate your patronizing tone and your overall pedagogical, didactic slice/dice/dissect approach to commenting on my posts back then, and I certainly don't now, either.
Really? This, from a Canadian?By the way, if you really feel that fact-checking is your forte and your calling, there is a certain occupant of the Oval Office in Washington who would greatly benefit from your expertise in this area...
MGTOW is the LAST place crossdressers should get ideas from in dealing with DADT crossdressing relationships or crossdressing in general. Dealing with it directly and honestly as adults is the way to go. But not-talking is easier, and less scary so far too many crossdressers do that and end up in DADT rather than having the hard conversations. We as a community need to encourage those conversations and not this "CDGTOW" nonsense.
And for those of you in DADT crossdressing relationships, think about this: What happens when you and/or your wife retires? Do you want to end up like former member TGMarla?
Veronica
If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.
I just had to take some time out to comment on MGTOWn or a proposed version of it CDMGTOW. Not that my posts are ever much intended to make many friends on this forum, as that is never what I have come here for.... not that I don't have a few on here, or that I design my posts to thwart friendships, but hopefully those who have read mine understand what I am trying to do or say to a degree, and yadda yadda....anyway, this post certainly won't likely be adding to my friend list...
1st, as a man- and the idea of MGTOW. I find the entire idea of it to be utterly disgusting. Honestly does any man really feel this way, the way this movement describes? well apparently some do. how they come to feeling this way I truly do not understand. Other than some immensely ridiculous insecurity I suppose. Feeling trapped by society? I mean really?? Don't like the whole marriage kids mortgage thing? then just leave. Go be the whatever man you need to be. There isn't ANYONE stopping you other than yourself. Well, the lack of money in a bank account maybe..... ah ha! yeah, now having written this, my brain is really starting to figure this out. (ok not really), i fully understand the ridiculousness of it all.
It is the almighty dollar. And that goes for those CDMGTOW's as well.... I do find it really really funny that the CDMGTOW's are feeling repressed by their wives forcing manhood on them, yet the cis version feels the opposite, that their poor wittle manhood is being flushed out, and they are being forced to live in some feminine holy hell.
I am not the most forthcoming of my private real life on here, so I can only ask that people have a general sense of belief in what I write when I say I know or know of people. I definitely know of some men who fit the MGTOW mold very well. the man's man.... doing the man work, while wifey makes a lot more money.... but "he" feels too good to go get a real job, or in some cases A JOB....
I do want to state that blue collar work is a real job, and I know and know of some guys who do real good at it. Make a very good living at it. I also know a lot more who don't make hardly anything. but they are MEN and it is man work and they must live the man life afterall. No sissyfied job as a hospital administrator or stock broker/accountant, wearing a suit with no dirt on their hands and manicured nails yadda yadda.... that's no life for a real man even though it makes these girly men in most cases plenty of money. They had to go to girly college in order to do this though. screw that....
and these girly men come home after work and help with chores (*the horror*) homework, dinner etc etc. And these stockholm syndrome men like it. They've been sissyfied to the max! What real man would want to come home and spend time with his family after all when he could be out getting drunk with his buddies and gettin some.....
As a man who does these girly things, I have a wife who likes and admires and IS THANKFUL that I do these things. I had one before who wasn't, and now she and I are divorced. Hmmmm go figure....
This second wife of mine pretty much gives me free reign to do whatever I want. If I want to go golfing after work, I do not need to ask permission, I just tell her I am going, or bowling, or to a super bowl party, or whatever. I do not need permission to do anything. Maybe I just learned from my mistakes and picked a better woman?? And maybe, just maybe I respect her, and love her enough that A. I don't abuse this freedom, and B. love her enough that I simply want to spend the majority of my free time with her, and my kids..... go figure that. But then again, I've been sissyfied so I am a lost cause to the real men anyway. oh well, guess I will just do the next best thing and enjoy the money I make, go places, do things, have decent things.... live life without massive financial stress. (always some of course) It's a second rate life I know, but I make do the best I can.
Now, as for the CDMGTOW- trapped you say. REALLY, trapped. repressed? the DADT thing of course, the horror of that. (I get it, I really do) except that it still brings you more time to express than you did before, along with the lack of stress from the constant hiding/lying. But this DADT thing, I mean, you agreed to it right? WHY did you agree to something so horrible??? Could it be that you realized at the time how horrible your lying and deceit was when you married her? and then at the time felt it reasonable to give her the ability to not have to deal with it all? after all, more time to dress and no more lying and hiding is still an improvement....
I know its not a perfect solution, but it was an agreed to solution after all. Agreed by you, and not at gun point either. But YOU DO all have a choice. Break YOUR agreement. The consequences of breaking YOUR agreement probably won't be pretty. Breaking agreements never usually is. But, you still do have that option, regardless of what happens, and you can go your own way.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
I'm heartened by the girls who stand up against this mysoginistic crap. I am appalled by how many men on this site support it. STOP BLAMING WOMEN FOR YOUR SELF ESTEEM ISSUES! I am seriously considering leaving this forum. This not the kind of club I want to be part of.
Veronica,
I don't like the doctrine of the MGTOW group much either, but Leslie related CDers in a DADT situation to a CDGTOW movement which would be an entirely different thing.
We all have different versions of DADT ! Yes I would love to have an open honest relationship where my CDing was discussed along with other matters between a married couple. Whether you call adult or not it just doesn't happen when it comes to CDing she doesn't want to know, end of subject . As I've said before I just live a double life, but I don't entirely agree with Micki Finn that getting a divorce will solve all your problems, all you've done is doubled your partners load. To most there are no simple answers when it comes to Cding, someone always gets hurt somewhere along the line.
Sometimes, on and off the forum, I will say something to the effect of, "the cross dressing community is home to some of the most misogynistic, selfish, anti-women men on the planet, and most of them have no clue and think they're totally 'one of the gurls'". Usually you all yell at me for it. In the future, I will simply link this thread and say, "Exhihits A through Z, your honor, and kindly shut up."
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
3 points.
1. Zooey - YAY.
2. Full disclosure... I am divorced but I learned something in 18 years of marriage. People rarely change. If your wife still loves you fantastic, if she can handle your gender issues whatever they may be even BETTER !!! I wish every person on this forum with a wife or SO can find happiness for both themselves and their SO. But if you are constantly butting heads over CD TG TS NB etc if you think it is going to change you are kidding yourself. You have to address the situation with each other openly and honestly. If you choose to stay and bury your thoughts feelings and hide your actions then at that point you have only yourself to blame if you have discussed it openly and honestly. If you have not done that... well that's your first mistake.
3. Teresa, AGP is not the PROBLEM IMHO. AGP is an issue far too complex and debated to go into in depth here. Your mention of it concerned me hence a brief mention. For those unaware AGP is a psychological theory that fantasizing about having a woman's body is a sexual fetish. This theory further states that transgender individuals fall into this diagnosis. Certainly all gender issues are not created equal however Teresa I implore you to examine AGP more closely and not pigeon hole yourself into believing you are just' getting off' by thinking about being a woman.
Please read this paper by Julia Serano on AGP and how it relates to TG https://learningtrans.files.wordpres...review-ijt.pdf
Well indeed, If you are a girly CD MTGOW is not your thing at all. Gee why does a man feel trapped in a marriage. I have raised kids and in two marriages. It took me a long time to find an honest woman that accepts me for me. Any ways those men have a serious problem with women and society. All CD an girly girls here should stand against this funky misogyny as many of you do. I read their manifesto and thought gee, what lost men they are. But here we are girly girls. Right?
Part Time Girl
Thank you, Professor Veronica, for favoring me yet again with a lecture on the concept of the "standard interleaved style of quoting", it's origins, its applicability and its usefulness, as well as the practicality of using the "multi-quote" format as practiced on this forum.
Duh!
That was not my point; I have no issue with that method of responding to others' posts, and have used it myself where it makes sense. What galls me is the way you abuse that practice by occasionally targeting a particular person's post and then proceeding to pick everything they say apart line-by-line, assuming hidden or implied meanings where there are none, putting words in peoples' mouths (so to speak), and twisting words or phrases around to try to "entrap" them by assigning unintended meanings to them, thereby seeking to invalidate their arguments the way a cross-examining attorney tries to eviscerate a witness for the opposing side in a courtroom trial.
If that's what turns your crank and gives you sense of superiority, then go for it. Just be aware that there are always going to be some people out there who are willing to call you on your B.S., and I just happen to be one of those.
That said - and to Teresa's point as well as that of some of the others here - I never said that I was a fan of MGTOW per se, and certainly not of some of it's blatantly misogynistic adherents. But I can understand some of the frustrations - rightly or wrongly - that would drive some otherwise decent, yet wounded and scarred relationship-wise men into that camp and vowing to reclaim ownership for their legitimate rights within a given relationship, rather succumbing to manipulation or guilt to let their partner always getting their way just because they are trying to be "nice guys".
That's the parallel I was trying to draw in suggesting somewhat tongue-in-cheek that maybe we crossdressers could take a page out of the MGTOW Playbook in some of those respects and start a similar CDTOW movement to assert our rights to be our true selves, rather than submitting to asymmetrical DADT relationships where our wives or SO's hold this psychological power over us whereby they to try to repress our crossdressing for no better reason than we allow them too.
And yes, I do firmly believe that those of us who go along with DADT are basically just "nice guys" as well who don't want to make waves in order to maintain some acceptable level of marital harmony, as otherwise we wouldn't be in that position in the first place. And as the saying goes - and as we all know - "Nice guys finish last"...
I'm sorry Leslie, but what in the actual F are you talking about? You are not trapped in a relationship. Your SOs hold no real power over you. You are free to leave, and deal with the consequences, as are they. You are afraid, and you don't want to lose anything. I understand those feelings, but they have literally nothing to do with reality. Your SO gets to decide what kind of relationship they will be in, as do you. If the relationship is not mutually agreeable, then it's a pretty crap relationship to begin with, honestly. Stop blaming your wives for the things (most of) YOU hid from them whey signed up for this.
Horse shit.
Dear "Nice Guys",
Are you a "nice guy"? Do you take great pride in martyring yourself over all the great things you do for women? Do you expect a medal for NOT raping somebody or being a total asshole? Do you believe in the "friend zone"? Do you put women on a pedestal? Are you that guy who never asks a girl out because she's "just too perfect", but thinks that maybe if you're just nice enough then maybe she'll fall in love with you eventually? Do you constantly try to white knight your way into women's hearts, because you have the idea that women are delicate and just need to be saved1?
Guess what - you're not nice. Women don't owe you anything just because you're not literally the worst guy ever in your own mind. Women have a right to not be attracted to you, and conversely to be attracted to who they are attracted to. You're not paying off a mortgage on some future love you'll acquire when you do things for them. Some of the stuff you do is creepy as hell, and it's incredibly dishonest. Acting like a friend, when it's really all just part of some long-ass game you're playing? Bullshit.
I've dealt with your kind before. You're not nice, and stop pretending like it's women's fault for not falling all over you. The same principle applies once you're in a relationship, even if the details are different.
Nice guys don't finish last. You're just not nice guys.
BTW, I know a lot of you here have that last delusion1, because it's entirely evident in the way you dress yourselves and talk about women (and yourselves when "dressed"). It's sad, really, and far from true. Women don't need to be saved, we're not weak, and we don't need you. We want to be listened to, understood, loved, and cared for. Stop being nice guys to us, and start being HUMAN.
Last edited by Zooey; 02-07-2017 at 09:06 PM.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
I am going to have to say, there is a lot of privilege here. If you can possibly think that women have more rights then you and feminism is a problem, then you just can't see how much privilege you actually have. And I agree with some of the posts. You can accept DADT and decide that you are willing to live with that, but don't call yourself trapped. Everyone has free choice, you just may not be choosing to exercise it. For those that choose it, that is great. But you are only trapped by your own doings.
DADT is NOT HSL. Which stands for: Hide, Sneak and Lie!
To me DADT means u schedule your sessions when your "should be ex" is out and knows you're doing it! If she comes home early? Oh well!
When I was living HSL, I totally stopped enjoying dressing it was so stressful!
Once we came to our DADT arrangement, she hides or leaves so she won't have to see me. Now, I enjoy dressing. I can't image how ANYONE can stand living very long with a HSL arrangement! That's not a marriage, it's more like you're a thief in the nite and she's the sheriff.
I'm not even going to dignify the other acronym mentioned with a comment. I'm may be sexist but that's ridiculous!.gif "Big Roll Eyes")
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
And women also have options. But let's be real, feeling trapped is common to both men and women. The feminist movement made a big deal about this in the past, and rightfully so. Why isn't it fair to acknowledge that men can be abused emotionally. By promoting the stereotype that men are somehow beyond emotional vulnerability, and can't be blackmaled, cowed or abused is hypocritical.
http://www.chicagonow.com/shades-gen...nder-husbands/
There are many people that will read the above, and say "well of course, that poor woman" but every argument could equally be applied to a man, and every one will say "grow a pair"
Last edited by Meghan4now; 02-07-2017 at 10:59 PM.
I would have to vehemently disagree with the creation of a transgender or CD'ing group like the two mentioned in OP. It's a war that can't and won't be won. By any one.
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