Maybe you could steer us to some articles to confirm that autogynephilia isn't a mental disorder or mental illness. There must be a lot of fake news out there because search results point to articles saying that it is a mental illnessOriginally Posted by Teresa
"You're the only one to see the changes you take yourself through", Stevie Wonder
There are two things I know for sure about AGP. 1) Everybody has strong opinions about it. 2) Nobody knows anything about it. A slight exaggeration but only slight. The best source of information explaining the theory of autogynephila is Dr. Anne Lawrence's website (http://www.annelawrence.com) and her book "Men Trapped In Men's Bodies." A good personal account of AGP would be "Alice in Genderland" by Richard (Alice) Novic, M.D. AGP was the first model that somewhat described what I had experienced my entire life. There are, in my opinion, of course, things the AGP model gets right, things it gets wrong and things it doesn't attempt to explain at all. For instance, the AGP model makes no attempt to explain why AGP exist. One thing it gets right is the description of the phenomenon. One thing it gets wrong is the whole idea of paraphilias which I find moralistic and unscientific. AGP as a motive for transition is not something I care about since I'm not likely to go that route. Transition has only ever been an erotic fantasy for me which fits with the AGP model.
+1 @LilSissyStevie Same for me!
It's been a confusing ride for me over the years, and I thought I had myself figured out until some recent upheavals. What I had concluded was that the idea of being a woman is a sexual trigger for me. My fantasies all revolve around being a woman. When I make love to my wife, I imagine what it must feel like for her. I worship women out of admiration and envy. The thought of transitioning is incredibly arousing. However, I don't feel like I'm a woman in a man's body. I feel perfectly comfortable in male mode. I don't want anybody to know about my feminine fantasies. Therefore, I think transitioning would be a terrible and self-destructive choice for me. Fantasizing about it, though, is really, really fun.
From what I understand of it, that lines me up with the definition of AGP. While some people object to it, I find it comforting to know that my situation has been observed and documented in other people. I realize that this label can be mis-used to prevent people from actualizing their true gender identity, and that's the main reason many people object to it. However, this shoe fits me (although perhaps not perfectly), so I'm going to wear it; protesting that this can't possibly be a real thing is just as destructive as mis-using it for nefarious purposes.
By the way, I've seen a sex therapist in the last 6 months, and she never used the word Autogynephile, which is Kryptonite these days.
Love,
Daisy
Stevie,
To me AGP exists because of the way my Cding started, I have contacted Anne Lawrence and others, I have sent them my CDing history and they conclude I'm a classic example of to give it's full title ," a Non-homosexual TG with AGP. If paraphilias worry you then you have the same concerns with GD. Much of crossdressing is unscientific, we all know what happens with our brain chemistry but we are all individual and what triggers the chemistry in one person could be totally different in another. Anne Lawrence herself was a TG with AGP her overwhelming need to be seen as a woman still lead her to transition. Another example is Dierdre McCloskey , both have written autobiographies . I know now why I feel the way I do , like them I don't feel in the wrong body but the overwhelming need to be seen and accepted as a woman has finally explained the gut feeling I've had since my CDing started.
Ressie,
You could also read some comments that CDing is an abomination and the unfortunate ones be put away in a mental institution, do you feel mentally disturbed enough to be locked away because of your CDing, I certainly don't with my Cding with or without AGP. Some comments made about TSs can be just as scathing.
Whether members accept AGP or not is maybe not as important as dealing with the effects of it or GD has on you ! I personally feel I need to move into a totally accepting situation so I can dress full time to see how it affects me, being in a DADT situation isn't going to provide that answer, I may then need to start hormones to see if it achieves a balance in me, how my wife will deal with all that and possibly see more obvious female traits appearing I can't say. Whatever is driving me isn't going to go away, I have to accept it's got to happen .
Last edited by Teresa; 03-09-2017 at 03:38 PM.
In my post, I hoped to move away from labels to the concepts behind them, but gave labels as a guide.
Tossing around abbreviations and terms makes the reader see the post with the emotional baggage they carry about the label. If they hate the term AGP as it was used by one person, then seeing it written by someone who meant a different meaning, the original intent does not come thru.
I also see myself having a lot of truth in loving the idea of having myself seen as feminine (aka as a woman) but no sexual interest in men and I consider myself a man. So that hopefully explains my point of view without using AGP, TG, TS, LGBT, CD, TV, etc.
Hugs, Ellen
Ellen,
I'm not sure I understand your reply , with a question like the one posed in the opening thread to give a truthful answer the labels are important , we dress for different reasons and to some there is a sexual element, without labels how do you explain the differences. If you don't differentiate we will all be tarred with the same brush and then members will be upset about that .
Teresa, I'm not a label-hater, but "tarred with the same brush" confirms my first post - that some people want different labels to distance themselves from pleasure dressers. Deriving sexual excitement from crossdressing is not an all-or-nothing deal. For some, it's a major aspect but for others it's not. And when it is, it's private, and nobody needs to know the details. As Doc and I (and maybe others) have posted, when we go out in public, there's nothing sexual about it. If you wear the clothes, you crossdress, according to most sources. No motive required.
Nicole,
I have to admit the sexual part isn't evident when I go out, OK I flirt with girls. Privately I do find the the sexual component an annoying distraction at times, especially when other members say they virtually lost the need years ago. I did ask in the TS section about what happens to their needs when the T level does drop ? The answer I received away from the forum was inconclusive, about 50% found their dressing needs diminished and smaller number virtually stopped but even in those figures most went on to transition. Like me and some others the sexual component is only part of the story but then that's how my CDing started, that is when my GD and AGP started the combination of events has made me what I am. It's taken far too long to come to that conclusion, now I have to deal with it and move on .
Teresa,
You might be interested in this post on AGP (https://thirdwaytrans.com/2015/03/10/on-agp/). His take is that AGP involves two systems: the lust system and the attachment system. This corresponds with Nicole's idea of pleasure dressers and identity dressers. It can be conceptualized as two different spectrums both of which are involved in AGP. In my case, the lust component is strong and the attachment component is weak. I count myself lucky in that regard even though AGP has caused me some sexual compatibility problems. The mix can change over time. The typical trajectory of AGP seems to be where the lust system becomes weaker and the attachment system grows stronger. It's very common on this forum to read posts where it "started out" sexual and over time became about "just being me." With me, the attachment component has atypically grown weaker and the lust component ebbs and flows with no predictable pattern but has also generally grown weaker with age.
Also, my problem with the idea of paraphilias isn't emotional, it's philosophical. I would rather be called a pervert than a paraphiliac for the simple reason that if they call me a pervert I know they are coming from a moralistic point of view. And I know that my morals can beat up their morals. But paraphilias are based on the pseudo-Darwinian idea that any sexual arousal or activity that doesn't lead to or result in procreative activity is somehow "unnatural." It wasn't that long ago that masturbation, oral sex, and homosexuality were considered to be paraphilias but they became "normal" after some political agitation. The fact that these sexual activities can become magically OK because of changing attitudes makes the whole idea of paraphilias absurd. The only criteria for judging a sexual activity as good or bad should be whether or not there is a unwilling victim - not how unusual or popular it is.
" But paraphilias are based on the pseudo-Darwinian idea that any sexual arousal or activity that doesn't lead to or result in procreative activity is somehow "unnatural." "
I have read a lot about evolution and natural selection and have never seen this connection before. I believe the strong association of sexual activity and procreation is a religious device. I agree with you that sexual activity for pleasure or for procreation is a purely natural human activity and we should not be ashamed or defensive about it. For me the sexual arousal component was very strong when I was younger. It is still strong now but is overlaid with a wonderful feeling of comfort and the pleasure of dressing and looking like a female. This is the "attachment" system you talk about.
Stevie,
It's the first time I've seen AGP associated in this way, it makes sense. I would say the shift is now in the attachment side but while the T level remains high the lust side isn't far behind.
I'm not going to concern myself whether some consider me a pervert or suffering from a paraphilia, questioning morals in these circumstances doesn't really help and it doesn't help me find answers worrying about those labels. My sexual activity remains in my own home, since the menopause my wife has no interest in me in an intimate way,( that's aside from my CDing ) I will admit I don't like my life going full circle but I'm still a functioning male what choices do I have ? Again I raise the question of what happens when my T level does finally fade, does my need to dress fade with it or will the need to transition become stronger ?
Darwin was more concerned with animal behaviour than human, his comments about sexual activity were more connected with species evolution .
I feel an AGP thread should be started , as members are now prepared to talk about it calmly and sensibly , it's good to see the comments on the connections that appear when viewed from the AGP perspective .
Definite Transvestite here, just love that word!
Consuelo, Teresa,
This is why I say pseudo-Darwinism. I think that when the scientific minded world lost faith in religion they weren't ready to throw out all the rules and regulations and beliefs that went along with it. So being possessed by demons became mental illness, sexual sins became paraphilias and other sins became crimes. That's all slowly changing but many superstitions remain. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about this but I do acknowledge it. I'm not against religion, BTW, I just like to be clear on what is a belief and what is a provable fact.
First, a bit of Mental Illness 101. Bear with me here, it’s only a short list. While there are over 200 classified forms of mental illness, these are the major categories:Maybe you could steer us to some articles to confirm that autogynephilia isn't a mental disorder or mental illness. There must be a lot of fake news out there because search results point to articles saying that it is a mental illness
1. Anxiety Disorders (phobias, panic disorders OCD, PTSD, etc)
2. Mood Disorders (depression, bipolar disorder, etc)
3. Schizophrenia/Psychotic Disorders (delusions, hallucinations, etc)
4. Dementias (Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s disease, head traumas, etc)
5. Eating Disorders (Anorexia Nervosa, Bulimia, binge or over-eating)
6. Impulse control and addiction disorders (sexual compulsions, internet addiction, compulsive shopping, hoarding, pyromania, kleptomania, etc)
7. Personality disorders (paranoia, antisocial personality disorder, narcissism, avoidant personality disorder, etc)
You can see that many of these conditions are not that unusual.
Also, everything is on a scale. For example, most people have experienced anxiety and depression at times, but not to the point of needing medical help for it. Or, a person can shoplift once or twice without it being considered a mental illness (kleptomania, an inability to stop shoplifting). Or, people can enjoy porn without being consumed by it. Likewise, many people enjoy alcohol without becoming alcoholic.
The same holds true of sexually gratifying behaviors. If they produce pleasure without having a negative impact on a person’s functioning (personal relationships, work and productivity, social interactions), then they are not an issue and are not considered a mental illness.
In other words, the behavior is considered a mental illness only when it impedes normal functioning. So, to everyone who enjoys the sexual aspect of the CDing, don’t worry about it, unless you’ve reached the point of social isolation because of it, or your primary relationship has been negatively impacted by it. Don’t get bogged down by a clinical name.
Last edited by ReineD; 03-10-2017 at 05:37 PM.
Reine
Thanks Reine. I was hoping that you would jump in because you've demonstrated knowledge on this topic in the past. The 1-7 list is a great synopsis of psychological problems. And like you implied, it seems almost everyone has a slight mental or emotional problem.
"You're the only one to see the changes you take yourself through", Stevie Wonder
It's interesting to see the wide disparity regarding the words "Transvestite" and "Crossdresser." Not to mention people's willingness to embrace or reject them all together.
In my case I am 57 and have been a paramedic in the 70's and a bachelors prepared RN for 24 years. When I was hitting puberty, my parents talk was substituted by the infamous, Dr. David Rubens, Seminel work (if you will) *everthing you wanted to know about sex, but were afraid to ask."
It certainly answered lots of questions and gave me one heck of a leg up on everyone else, all the way through high school.
It gave me a good understanding of crossdressing and used the term "transvestite." Over the years, the clinical term came to gain a connotation of sexual perversity. As such, I freely admit that I crossdress. It is a word that accurately describes what I do. There is an occasional twitch of "Transvestic fetishism" when buying or trying on new cloths, BUT, it is not the primary reason I enjoy wearing cloths designed for the opposite sex.
As with most, I started with a tremendous sexual rush that mostly burned out by 30. (I started at 13 or so in 1974). I quickly discovered that underdressing did two things:
1. It allowed me to thumb my nose at cultural norms of men wearing women's clothing.. And in the process normalized the behavior over the years, which causes item 2.
2. When underdressing, totally dressing or stealth dressing in public gives a feeling of relaxation as though I have a pass on societal expectations...and I do, I essentially gave it to myself.
It amazes me how many disavow labels or detest the words. Crossdressing is the word that describes in our language what I do... If someone asks, "Yes, I crossdress...because I like wearing the cloths and am not engaged in some perverse sexual stunt or to 'get off'"
Usually I omit the brief explanation .
Yes, of course we all experience mental and emotional problems at one time or another. We are imperfect human beings, and experiencing occasional problems is not an indication of mental illness. It only becomes a mental illness if it takes over and it prevents us from functioning properly. So, AGP (or any other sexual proclivity) would only be a mental illness if the CDer found himself incapable of working, incapable of being in a relationship if this is what he wanted, and/or incapable of interacting socially with others because all he wanted to do was to spend time alone dressing and getting off.
I do not consider that non-traditional sexual habits, if they are enjoyed occasionally, are mental or emotional problems. Also, even if the sexual habit is considered "normal" (sex with an opposite-sex adult), it would still be problematic if the person needed to engage in it constantly, to the point where he couldn't function at work, in a relationship, or socially. It's not a question of what gets people off, it's a question of balance between one specific type of pleasure and life's commitments and obligations together with other pleasures.
Right. Everyone has their own particular take on what these words mean, and so it's pointless to try to reach a consensus. I think it's best for a person to describe what he does, rather than trying to assign a label to it. For example, "I dress occasionally and once in a while, it is sexual for me", instead of trying to pin it down to "I am a crossdresser" or "I am a transvestite".
Last edited by ReineD; 03-12-2017 at 03:25 PM.
Reine
Consuelo, my dressing was a total turn-on for me and the sexual release was wonderful .I wish I knew some one who could push the right buttons for me .Devone
Just posting this to give some background for terminology.
AGP Autogynephilia
Classical Definition - Blanchard's transsexualism typology, also Blanchard autogynephilia theory (BAT) and Blanchard's taxonomy, is a psychological typology of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism created by Ray Blanchard through the 1980s and 1990s, building on the work of his colleague, Kurt Freund. Blanchard divided trans women into two different groups: homosexual transsexuals, whom Blanchard says seek sex reassignment surgery to romantically and sexually attract (ideally heterosexual) men, and "autogynephilic transsexuals" who purportedly are sexually aroused at the idea of having a female body. The typology suggests distinctions between MtF transsexuals, but does not speculate on the causes of transsexualism. The distinction is a recurring theme in scholarly literature on transsexualism
I have been dressing since 7. Dressing has always been comforting and exciting. I would say I am a Transgendered crossdresser. I have a very strong feeling of being female. But not enough to transistion.
Sarah
Interesting topic and made me look back at my story.
I used to (occasionally) dress in some of my mum’s clothes before I reached puberty – usually just underwear and a petticoat – and I remember enjoying it, feeling excited but there was no overt sexual element. When I reached puberty, I was very naïve on biology so didn’t really understand the way the human body worked – certainly didn’t understand what peers were on about when it came to the things teenage boys talked about.
As such, I started to get more aroused when dressing up, but not really understanding what was happening. Without wanting to get lewd, it dawned on me reading this thread that my first genuine “awakening" occurred when I dressed-up fully for the first time, probably in my early teens, from head to toe (including make-up and my mum’s heels).
Not really fussed if it is an ism, a fetish, a disorder or anything else. I’ve been dressing up for the past 20 years – I am straight, married, mortgage, job, etc. and it’s never affected my life. I still love dressing up and, as my first "moment" was dressed as a woman, it also continues to provide sexual gratification.
Swimtran, I think you echo my feelings and experiences wholeheartedly. Thanks for your contribution.
Last edited by Lorileah; 03-13-2017 at 11:50 PM. Reason: you didn't need quote to agree
Kelly,
Thanks for outlining Blanchard's work. This is part of my problem so I dug deeper and asked questions and was given information about TGs with AGP, this part was the expansion on Blanchards work because some people still had the need to transition even though they weren't TSs. There are two distinct sides , homosexual and nonhomosexual, it's important to think of them as separate , it makes a big difference to me as a nonhomosexual. The other important point is the sexual element is only part of the equation, to some it doesn't come onto it at all, unlike me.
Julia Serano has done a lot of work debunking AGP http://www.juliaserano.com/TSetiology.html she has also written an excellent book. One can google debunking AGP and find a myriad of information too.
A.K.A Rebecca & Bec
Becky, this is true. People on both sides of an argument can write convincing arguments. But, the topmost argument, in my view, is always whether the description of a condition rings true to the person who experiences what is being described. There have been lots of CDers who have said that they have, indeed, experienced sexual excitement over the thought of being a woman. Whether you want to call this AGP or something else is up to you, but it does not take away from the fact that the condition exists.
For those of you who want a breakdown of what autogynephilia means, it is AUTO (self) - GYNE (female) - PHILIA (love of, or sexual excitement).
Reine
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