tribute or demeaning?

[audreyinalbany]

I've been following Rebecca's post where she has been wondering about whether or not her wife is mocking her and started this response but decided it probably ought to be in it's own thread. Im sure this topic has come up before. As a matter of fact I've probably brought it up in the past. But there are probably enough new folks here that it deserves to be considered again:

For me there's a dilemma that I've often wondered about in the past,however. Is my crossdressing a tribute to women (which I think it is) or demeaning to them (which some genetic women may think). Is my crossdressing simply another way for me to exercise my male privilege? Is it a tribute or a travesty? I can get prettied up, go out and pretend to be a woman for a few hours then return to my male status. I don't have to menstruate every month, don't have to carry a child for nine months, don't have to settle for less money for equivalent work, or suffer the thousands of disadvantages that natal women have to deal with. In some sense I can understand where cis-women might feel some resentment over our desire ( and ability ) to play act at being women without have to actually pay the price of femininity in our society. Comments? And please, GG's on the forum please give your feedback.

[Rachael Leigh]

Audrey I think that yes that is a fair assessment of how some women will feel about CDs, I know my wife has said to me I just wish you could go thru some things real women deal with that men never will. I think it's valid but then when one is truly trans or gender fluid it may not be as much since we are just expressing a part of who we are. I fully appreciate what women deal with in the workplace as well as society and how many are treated poorly and it should not be so and being trans I think has helped me in understanding some not all of that

[Lana Mae]

To me it is a tribute to all the things women have to put up with and it has made me more sensitive to these issues! Of course, I have always felt that men needed to be the one to bear children at least once so they had that experience and would better appreciate there wives/SO. I am like the women and tired of this male dominated world! It is time that women rise up and take their place alongside their male(or female) partners and live as equals! Oh, my God! I am preaching again! Sorry! Hugs Lana Mae

[Jodi]

I'll say what my gg friends have told me. If a cd dresses in a stylish, appropriate manner and makes the best attempt to act like a woman, then it is OK. When a cd or group of cd's dress like trailer trash, wearing inappropriate attire, showing no manners, and generally acting like slobs, then it is very demeaning.

I have witnessed both scenarios and observed reactions. I agree with my gg friends.

jodi

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I'll say what my gg friends have told me. If a cd dresses in a stylish, appropriate manner and makes the best attempt to act like a woman, then it is OK. When a cd or group of cd's dress like trailer trash, wearing inappropriate attire, showing no manners, and generally acting like slobs, then it is very demeaning.

I have witnessed both scenarios and observed reactions. I agree with my gg friends.

jodi

[Teresa]

Audrey,
I haven't had any negative feedback on this issue, OK some may feel like that but the ones I'm out to are perfectly alright with me dressing. The comments I've been surprised at are about my legs, not in a bad way , They appear to appreciate I can put outfits together, they just think it's something I need to do .

I can't answer for my wife because of our DADT situation, she's never accused me me of demeaning her in fact like Rebecca I feel she's making more of an effort.

I don't think they think it's demeaning but I would doubt they see it as a tribute , too many women struggle in what they think is a man's World to see it like that .

[Stephanie47]

I don't think any woman perceives a man emulating a woman as a tribute. I don't think any women perceive it as demeaning. I think they just cannot figure it us out, which is OK since I have not been able to figure it out also.

My recommendation always has been and always will be to tell your wife or girlfriend that you do not know why you wear women's clothing. That is totally different than telling someone how you may feel wearing women's clothing; e.g., stress relief. I think most women will tell you it is demeaning to try to tell them you feel like a woman when obviously you're not.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I've had the same experience as Jodi, GG's , if you make the effort with clothes,makeup etc, are polite and act appropriately for where you are, most women are complimentary and polite. If a gg cannot tell without a second , third or 4th look, well that will bring s smile to both of you.

If you go to a night club to see a Drag show, yes, some of the tributes to Cher, Dianna Ross and others are amazing.

On the other side if your idea is to mock, demean and make fun of women, then yes I would call that demeaning.

As far as being a tribute ? the only people who can answer that are gg women.

[Wen4cd]

I am going to differ on this with a lot of people here.

I think that my CDing is neither a tribute nor demeaning to 'real women,' it is more of an homage to my own anima. To me, it has nothing whatsoever to do with women, and everything to do with my own ideals of beauty and of femininity, and the parts of my spirit those ideals condense around.

Women are human beings, and I am dressing to portray a fantasy. Any resulting senses of identity or empowerment I take from this well from my own soul, are not appropriated from anyone. The spirit exists within us all, sometimes deeply buried, or dormant, and dressing can cultivate roots down to this trapped mana and give it expression.

Now, going out into the social sphere and insisting that the world 'treat you as they would a woman' is where you may cross the line into demeaning appropriation, for however you imagine society treats 'real' women in your culture is really just a subjective projection of your own conceits about gender.

Therefore my opinion would lie in opposition to the general one expressed by Jodi. If one makes a deliberate attempt to "dress in a stylish, appropriate manner and makes the best attempt to act like a woman," that is more demeaning and appropriating than someone who dresses simply to please themselves, even if it is 'trashy and inappropriate' because it is a deliberate grab at another's social standing, rather than being true to self.

If your personal animatic vision is of a prostitute, then you will be happiest and most rewarded by dressing like a prostitute. Your inner Aphrodite doesn't care in the slightest if you conform to social standards, She cares how devoted you are to Her. Honestly, I have seen so many CD's live entire lives of misery by missing this simple concept, and trying to be something someone else wants them to be.

(Jung liked to outline 4 'stages' of anima development: Eve, Helen, Mary, and Sophia. You cannot skip over and ignore Eve and go straight to Sophia, Eve is the hook of desire that drives and motivates development. One stage builds on another, not abandons it. Every Sophia must always still be Eve as well.)

There is a lot of talk about male privilege being tossed around these days, but many TG's are preferring to cast down their swords and reach for the attractive fruits of female privilege. I find it best to abandon both. Disregard all the social sophistry and forget trying to be anything, search inward for what is most personally dear to you, and express that.

It is true that a large trait of femininity is to be a stigma (not in a social sense, but rather the part of a flower which receives pollination.) That is to say, femininity is a receptor for unconscious projection, a magic mirror, if you will, and this causes a lot of miscommunication and delusion about what it is to be female, (or at least feminine.) It's a wild goose chase at best.

Those who have been around the merry-go-round a few times eventually become more adept at separating fantasy content from truth. I find it a fantastical notion that what I seek from dressing is going to be bestowed on me from others who approve of my level of social conformity. If you are a people-pleaser, fine, but don't let it cramp your style.

[Tracii G]

Male privilege?
Come on really?

[Eva Bella]

Great post. This is something that I've thought about quite a bit, and it's come more to the forefront in light of the recent legal battles for transgender people.

I think that a significant amount of cross dressers are doing this out of desire for power. Which sounds crazy, but if you think about it.. attractive women are uniquely able to control men and command their attention. I believe that many CD's are doing their expression as a way to "take the power back" and show that they can do it as well. I've been in several absurd situations where a crew of rough-looking CDers in hooker dresses are leering at GGs and catcalling them. Deep down, there is nothing feminine about them, it's just a costume and a way to get their kicks.

Understandably, GGs are not into this. Neither is the trans community as a whole. This pisses me off to no end as well, and gives us a lousy reputation.

In my experience, if you're polite, comfortable, and respectful, then women are almost uniformly friendly to you while dressed. You'll get judged for dressing like a hooker, but so would a GG. Women judge other women for dressing too provocatively all the time.

If you're acting like an overgrown frat boy in a dress and your mentality is dismissive to women and trans folk, then you're like a dude dressing up as Beyoncé for Halloween. You're gonna get looked at strange for the other 364 days of the year

[AllieSF]

I have never had that type of reaction to me out in public, that is, I never have noticed it whether it was there or not. That being said, if a woman is so insecure to feel threatened or demeaned by a man in a dress, no matter how presented (blending to showing off), then the problem is theirs not ours. Do they also feel demeaned if one of their own dresses like trash or so garish that they stop traffic two blocks over? I doubt it. Why do we make other's issues our own? We do not have to. We are not being disrespectful for dressing like a woman, no more than the women who first starting wearing male clothes in search of a mixed male/female mixed presentation, which I love, were or are being disrespectful to men. No one has to like the presentation of another while out in public, but why should we feel demeaned by others like that? I think that we are being overly sensitive to the feelings of others where we do not need to be.

[Tracii G]

Audrey you are sounding like a man that has been conditioned to feel that his being a man is something not to be proud of.
You have to sit and wonder either way that by your actions you are hurting someone else or causing women to be upset?

[Kelly DeWinter]

"I think that a significant amount of cross dressers are doing this out of desire for power."

LOL that's a new one, most crossdressers do not place themselves in public situations to interact with anyone unless it's in a club or party. I do understand that by degrees that's changing.

I really don't understand where 'power' comes in.

[Tracii G]

Yes Kelly I wonder about the "power" thing she talks about too.

[Diane Taylor]

I don't think that dressing is in any way a "tribute" to women because we do it for our own reasons or pleasure. Whether or not it's demeaning depends on who you ask. I don't see how it could be any more demeaning than if a women wears pants. Is that demeaning toward men? Not in my opinion. But one thing that some women don't appreciate is being referred to as a "GG". One of the support groups I belonged to was open to wives and SO's and at one of the meetings a survey was taken and they unanimously voted that the term "GG" was not to be used at the meetings.

[Tina955]

I don't think it is demeaning or a tribute. I don't know about anyone else, but if I see a woman dressed in all male designated attire, it does not offend me, or make me feel they are mocking men, it is just theway they feel more comfortable presenting themselves.
As far as the fallacy that women make less money than men for the same job, it is illegal in the United States to do this.
This 76 cents earned for every dollar a man makes comes from the entire career. Women sometimes have to leave work for child berth, and women tend to not work as many years as men, so they typically make 76% of what a man makes in his career. If it was true women get payed less for the same job, don't you think most corporations would be hiring more women over men? I would imagine women would be knocking men out of a multitude of job opportunities. As a business owner, if it were true, I wold be the only male there.
As far as thousands of disadvantages women have to deal with, the only ones I can come up with, are they have to be more discrete when belching and farting. I know women are now in the military, but that is their choice. Theynever had to sign up for a draft card. If a ship is sinking, who gets saved first, women and children. Men must really be the weaker sex if women have more disadvantages than men, and are able to generally out live men.
This is my take, as I look at all the women in my family compared to the men, and what each of us have had to deal with in life, and the women have it far better than the men in my opinion.
Tina

[ClosetED]

I agree with Tina - I do not see women who wear pants trying to demean men or be a tribute. I am not pretending to BE a woman, so I am not avoiding the other gender related issues like menses. I am choosing to wear clothes and makeup to create the illusion of a woman, hopefully a pretty one, which could be considered a tribute.
Do you consider women who avoid any femininity to be demeaning to other women? What about women who go out in yoga pants, no makeup, hair a mess, ragged sweatshirt - because they felt more comfortable that way?
Just another viewpoint ..
Hugs, Ellen

[Eva Bella]

Thanks, this is a nice conversation... it's great to discuss things politely with other people

So, let me explain the dynamics of power and sexism and its relation to crossdressing. I've been on a fascinating journey with this, and I've been fortunate to meet many different people along the spectrum of what we do. The scene here in Los Angeles is huge and quite diverse, so we have a lot of different viewpoints.

For ease, let's exclude true cross-gender people from this analysis.. so I'm only talking about folks who are born as men, living as men most of the time, and comfortable as men. I'm one of them... I have girl time about 3 or 4x a week, mostly at night, but I'm comfortable in my male gender as well. So I tend to hang out with like-minded people in a similar station.

Every crossdresser has a different journey, but I've met about a dozen who have absolutely shocked me with their sexism and aggression towards women. They're angry and dismissive of females. Some are envious that women "have it easy" and can seemingly wear what they want. Others will overcompensate and act macho while dressed.. they have to constantly make sexualized comments about GG's or brag about how they're good at fighting or own a hundred firearms. They'll call women ditzy or stupid. They'll insist how they're really a tough guy in daily life and they'll beat down any male admirers who try to talk to them. And to me.. this is incredibly shocking behavior. To spend $100 on a makeover, wear five pounds of shaped undergarments, and sit in a bar batting your enormous false eyelashes and telling me "look at the rack on that one."

With this attitude, you have to think: what is their motivation? They don't act feminine. They insist that they are not. They want to be seen in at least semi-public settings. In talking to them, it appears that they look down on most women (at best) or actively dislike women (at worst).

The one thing that unites them is a narcissistic attitude about their appearance. Much of their behavior seems to say "look at me. I'm hot too! Look at how good I can do this." They are obviously under the spell of attractive women in feminine clothing (pretty much everyone is) and I believe that that their motivation is to flip that power dynamic and take it back. The consider themselves more intelligent and capable than most women, and now (in their mind) they can also wear a sexy dress and heels just as well or better than most of the girls out there.

I don't know most of the people on this site, so this isn't directed at anyone here.. it's just based off my experiences in person and on Facebook. I believe that this is a large motivation for some of us.

[Tracii G]

You do need to realize the rest of the country isn't like southern California Eva.

[Teresa]

Allie,
I have to disagree with your comment about women passing comment on other women dressing like hookers, they certainly do, they can be far more condemning than men, I know that's from a protective angle to safeguard more vulnerable people and children, if a man or woman dresses like a tart they can expect some backlash from a majority of women.

Wen4cd,
I hope TSs don't see your comment , they have no choice but to go out and expect to be treated like a woman , and it would be demeaning on them not to accept them for what they are. From your point of view you can go out and dress and act just as you please and not expect or accept any criticism , we all have the right to do it but with the same token people have the right to say if they have been offended and felt demeaned, to say it's all their problem does suggest a touch of arrogance on your part. I try to treat people like I hope they would treat me, I realise being a CDer pushes those boundaries , I don't know if I will transition or not, if I do it does matter what society thinks because I will have to fit in with them , the last thing I would want to risk is being an outcast after making that difficult choice.

Eva,
I go out socially and meet many Cders and their partners there are also TSs in the group and not one shows that attitude, OK some do dress better then others, we might think, OH DEAR ! but would never comment, to most of us it's not what it's about .


Is Facebook the real World ? It doesn't sound like it , that's why I stay away from the social websites most of it is cloud cuckoo land !

[Eva Bella]

Tina, with respect... if you look at the way that men and women relate in most societies, there is a profound power imbalance.

You can see that with our community. Why is it more controversial for a man to dress like a woman? Why is it bad to be a "sissy" ?" During the last election, one of the largest complaints of the status quo was that the United States was becoming "too feminine." This is perceived as a bad thing.

And that's because most people believe that men are inherently more competent and powerful than women. Women are allowed greater lattitude in their behavior and their clothing because they are perceived as frivolous compared to men. You see it with children. If a girl wants to dress as superman then everyone thinks its funny and cool. If a boy wants to dress as supergirl, then half of the neighborhood is losing their mind over it.

I believe that sexism is very present and quite hard-wired. And that's it equally present in men and women. Women are more than capable and willing to tear down their own. Gender roles and the power dynamic have been this way for a very long time, and it's going to take longer for them to balance. But you can't ignore that they exist.

And Tracii... please explain

[Kelly DeWinter]

Eva,

You may want to read more historical posts here to get a better idea of what the community experiences on this topic.

Your recent post:
. exclude cross-gender
. 12 people who shocked you
. like minded people you hang out with


By your exclusionary method, you will limit the discussion from a majority of people who are in this site.

In addition what you describe is 'power dynamic' is redefining by which Drag Queens and Kings dressed and acted in manners that made fun of women and men. This was the most narcissistic form of dressing.

RuPaul has said many times:

'Drag is dangerous. We are making fun of everything'

[Tina955]

Eva, the perception that too much feminity is a bad thing is apperently only from the male point of view. Obviously women don't feel being too feminine is a bad thing, otherwise they would give up all the frills. In this day and age, I think most women realize they can do whatever a man does, and look a whole lot better doing it, and are just as capable. So I would imagine women think, let the men think they have the power, but we know better. Otherwise I think you would see women with short hair and wearing clothes that basically cover up their bodies as mens clothing typically does.
And I really need to see some of those disadvantages, been trying to come up with more, and all I can come up with is, it's illegal for women in most places to be in public bare chested, but that would be an advantage to me and I would imagine quite a few members here lol.
Tina

[AllieSF]

Teresa,

I did not mean that they do not comment on other women. I clearly stated that they do not feel demeaned when they see another woman presenting as I described. Hell, I comment about people when dressed like slobs, but I do not feel it is demeaning to me how they dress and present. I may actually feel sorry for them!

[Nikki A.]

I'm looking at it in a different way. Imagine that you're out with an accepting SO or female friend. If she's embarrassed over the way you're dressed then that is demeaning.
Not saying we can pass as women, but if we dress nicely, I can't see it as demeaning to women.