tribute or demeaning?

[AllieSF]

Cambridge online dictionary.

demean

verb [ T ] US ​ /dɪˈmin/
​
to cause to become less respected

I still propose that if a woman feels demeaned (made to feel less respected) because men dress as females, she has a bigger problem than us running around out in the wild.

[susan54]

Assuming that the woman is not a partner, I don't think they perceive it to be a comment on women - it is more about your self-expression. My feedback is that they think I make a good job of dressing and they love my clothes and my legs. They seem to enjoy that a man has to go through something like a leg wax so that we experience some of the negative side they do. They seem to appreciate that my dressing does not 'take the p**s' and being good at it seems to be received well. I think that drag queens are in a different category because they go over the top by becoming a parody of women and parodies are never positive.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Audrey, I think that women some love it and others hate it with some somewhere in the middle.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery......

[Jemma-crossing]

Yes to this Wen4cd! Well stated.

I agree that reflecting authenticity to self should and often does illicit more compassion and empathy from others. Perhaps it is a difference between being who you want to be, and trying to be someone else because of what you think that person has.

However, people judge things, and regardless of your authenticity to self there are social norms and individual reactions which may outweigh someone compassion regardless of your authenticity to yourself. I think it is important to recognize this. With that in mind I'm also curious about what GGs reactions have been to specific instances of CD and what the​ typical publics mental response is to seeing someone CD. Thanks for this thread.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I don't have any "male privilege" so I can't speak to that, but part of the reason I dress (internally) is a form of tribute to the women who have had the most profound influence in my life. To the rest of the world, I just dress as I like. I have never been told my image is offense to GGs, but even if it was somehow, it would just be me dressing how I wish.

Some men are bitter because they have been mistreated by women in the past. I don't in any way behave like the rude men described... but I can understand why some would be bitter given how some men have been burned by women (not all women, but the women they may have dealt with.)

[ReineD]

Is my crossdressing a tribute to women (which I think it is) or demeaning to them (which some genetic women may think). Is my crossdressing simply another way for me to exercise my male privilege? Is it a tribute or a travesty?

If you're asking how a GG might see this, I do not view the CDing as either a tribute or demeaning. I just see it as something that you all enjoy doing - whether dressed stylishly or in a sexual manner. Different strokes for different folks. As to any particular style (high fashion or dressed like a hooker), there is also a wide variety of styles among GGs. Some dress stylishly while others dress expressly to attract guys (think young college girl wearing a super short and tight nightclub outfit) ... and others don't put much effort into their appearance one way or the other.

.. attractive women are uniquely able to control men and command their attention. I believe that many CD's are doing their expression as a way to "take the power back" and show that they can do it as well.

You forget several things, though. The power that women supposedly have over men is sourced from a hetero male’s libido - his very powerful attraction to females. Right? Guys want it so bad sometimes that they’re willing to do almost anything (… but keep in mind, only for the very attractive few GGs). lol. CDers, on the other hand, do not have the power to attract hetero males. In fact, I dare say that the average guy is turned off of another guy who presents as a woman. And if a guy is indeed attracted to a CD, you can bet your bottom dollar that the part he is most attracted to is not included in a GG’s plumbing. Also, the average CDer here is middle aged. Last I checked, the average middle-aged female body and its power to attract males is severely diminished, compared to when she was younger. And even among younger women, only a small percentage fall into the category of women beautiful enough to "control" men to the degree that you describe.

You of course have the right to your motives for dressing, but I strongly disagree with your premise that CDers have power over men, or that even most GGs do, for that matter.

I've been in several absurd situations where a crew of rough-looking CDers in hooker dresses are leering at GGs and catcalling them. Deep down, there is nothing feminine about them, it's just a costume and a way to get their kicks.

This is NOT what most people experience when they run across CDers. You do not describe the norm, or at least, you do not describe the body of people who hang out here and who also attend the rather large TG group that my SO and I belong to.

[Wen4cd]

Wen4cd,
I hope TSs don't see your comment , they have no choice but to go out and expect to be treated like a woman , and it would be demeaning on them not to accept them for what they are. From your point of view you can go out and dress and act just as you please and not expect or accept any criticism , we all have the right to do it but with the same token people have the right to say if they have been offended and felt demeaned, to say it's all their problem does suggest a touch of arrogance on your part. I try to treat people like I hope they would treat me, I realise being a CDer pushes those boundaries , I don't know if I will transition or not, if I do it does matter what society thinks because I will have to fit in with them , the last thing I would want to risk is being an outcast after making that difficult choice.

Teresa, I'm not sure exactly where I said if someone feels demeaned 'it's all their problem.' My post didn't deal with people feeling offended. I did opine that going out and insisting that you be treated a certain way is appropriation and potentially demeaning. But, anytime one demands specific treatment from others based on some social criteria, one runs the risk of discovering just how fragile polite society can be.

But I say, if you do choose to transition, I respect your choice, and I am especially glad to hear you refer to it as a choice.

So far as my dressing just as I please... I've outlined the reasons for that in detail. I am not in control of the criticism of others, and the criticism of others, usually, is not in control of me. I treat people decently, they generally reciprocate. I don't ask them how I may or may not dress.

[Allsteamedup]

GG here. Historically (like before too many support groups got going) women faced with a cd partner would comment angrily on the presentation as a comment on how cders viewed women. For example, forty years ago dressing like a hooker or a schoolgirl or with very short skirts and high heels when the fashion of the day was very different was taken as an expression of an opinion of women in general and not the cders preference. Things are very different in clothing choices now.

How you express your style is very important to your SO. Never aim to be prettier, even if you could be. Do not compare your appearance with that of other cders: we would never do that. Looking poor these days can be an expression of sloppiness: there are plenty of inexpensive clothing choices out there.

In general, women together would not comment on each others clothing, nor make comparisons. How a woman thinks is considered far more important. In a mixed group your views are more important than your clothes. I hope this does not disappoint you.

[Joe Lunchbox]

I remember Robin Williams, as Mrs. Doubtfire saying "I feel like a female lesbian." Personally, I would categorize myself as a closet exhibitionist, and have an abiding envy of the ability of females to wear lingerie that can decorate so beautifully the parts of their bodies that differ from a man's. I'm quite a show-off as long as I'm sure no one can see me.

I never considered whether my underdressing indicated a tribute, but given a binary choice, that would be it. I appreciate the female form and consider its natural beauty as a gift to mankind.

As an earlier poster pointed out, 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.'

[Tracii G]

Joe you sound like you have a lingerie fetish.
Given a binary choice????? What does that even mean?

[Sandin Meknickers]

Depends on your motivation and has little to do with what women think. I think it's the ugly character traits many of us display that put them out most: a lifelong will to deception driven by the ugliset of all things, fear. That in itself is very difficult to grasp and logically must beg the question: what else? Such self depricating behaviour is so odd i'd be more likely to question my humanity than gender - it doesn't fit into gender definitions, but comfortably within mental health diagnosis.

I wouldn't worry about it. Feeling demeaned is much like taking offence and purely subjective. The ones that would feel like this would likely go off at you for assuming empathy here. You're not going to stop doing it so you clearly do not empathise enough. Because it's wrong headed and we know it.

[Paige Dehart]

I don’t see CD’ing as either a tribute to or demeaning to women. I see it as an outward expression of the internal person’s emotions/feelings and their need to express who they are. While it is true that the CD’er does not have to experience some of the less pleasant things about a being a GG while getting to experience some of the good things about it, it is equally true that there is a whole set of problems they have to deal with that the GG does not. I feel no resentment only sorrow for those who are not free to fully express who they are.

[sometimes_miss]

I think that a significant amount of cross dressers are doing this out of desire for power. Which sounds crazy, but if you think about it.. attractive women are uniquely able to control men and command their attention. I believe that many CD's are doing their expression as a way to "take the power back" and show that they can do it as well.

and then

You forget several things, though. The power that women supposedly have over men is sourced from a hetero male’s libido - his very powerful attraction to females. Right?

Right....sort of. What we really envy is your accessibility to having sex. It's very hard for a man to get sex, and women don't acknowlege that at all.
We're not all that picky, even though you think we are. OTOH, few men understand what sex is like for a woman. We're pretty much guaranteed a quick and very satisfying orgasm each time, every time, and because our egos need to believe our penises are so wonderful, we can't contemplate that penis central sex isn't as always terrific for you as it is for us.

Guys want it so bad sometimes that they’re willing to do almost anything (… but keep in mind, only for the very attractive few GGs). lol. CDers, on the other hand, do not have the power to attract hetero males <snip>

OR attract hetero females. It's a lose-lose situation for us.

Also, the average CDer here is middle aged. Last I checked, the average middle-aged female body and its power to attract males is severely diminished, compared to when she was younger. And even among younger women, only a small percentage fall into the category of women beautiful enough to "control" men to the degree that you describe.

It's not the complete control that we are looking for. All it usually is, is the control you have over whether or not we'll be having sex.....at all.
I think that a substantial number of women have the feeling that crossdressers: 1. wear unrealisticly inappropriate sexy feminine attire because they want to appear sexually attractive, and 2. do this because we believe women have an easier life, so it's simply better to be a girl. The whole 'the grass is greener on the other side of the fence' routine, where each person ignores the hardships that the other faces on a day to day basis. Then the argument escalates to the women saying that a man could never deal with menstruation or childbirth, and the men countering with being drafted and sent off to war to die.
Each only focus on the benefits that the other has. NOBODY wants to claim the crappy parts of life.
So. Tribute? Not exactly. Demeaning? Not intentionally anyway; most of us love and admire women for the NICE things you do for the world. But we do get tired of being told that WE are responsible for all the bad things in a woman's life.
My ex actually accused me of marrying her in order to ruin her life. It's this type of thing that makes me wonder how often wives just consider how their husband's crossdressing affects her, rather than any worry at all about what turmoil it's had in the mind of her husband. Surely, it upsets her life. But nothing in comparison to what it's done to us. And then when we have to deal with her anger towards us on top of that? Little wonder so many of us have psychological problems.
So all I can say to those wives now is, it's not all about you. None of us intentionally did some evil thing to you. None. People DO choose whether to remain upset about things. Sure, initially the shock of a change in your life can cause anger, but rational adults are able to get past that.
Tribute? Demeaning? Neither. It's not all about you.

[Leslie Langford]

audrey, I'm going to try to word my response to your post very carefully so that Lorileah isn't tempted to smack me upside the head (figuratively speaking, of course ) for presumed female-bashing, but when I see you use the term "male privilege" in regard to how we approach our crossdressing activities, I can't help but feel that you have partaken of the Kool-Aid that the more rabid among the feminists have been dispensing for decades.

Personally, I don't think that either sex has first dibs on this so-called "privilege" thing that is so often spoken about these days. This is a false legacy that harks back to historical times when society - rightly or wrongly - set in place certain expectations of behavior for both sexes that were rigidly adhered to (and often enforced), but are now in a state of flux. This has often led to confusion as to what traditionally gender-based roles are now "acceptable", and which ones are not. And for each set of these (formerly) gender-based expectations and "privileges" on the male side, there are equivalent - albeit not necessarily identical - "privileges" on the female side.

I happen to belong to a generation where it was still expected that the husband be the primary (if not sole) breadwinner, while the wife stayed home to look after the house and raise the children (the "Leave It To Beaver"/"Ozzie and Harriet"/"Father Knows Best" era). This is no longer the case, and all the stresses associated with holding a job in a precarious economy in order to maintain a certain lifestyle no longer fall squarely on the shoulders of the man. It is now generally a shared responsibility between the married/co-habiting partners of a couple, as is - in theory, anyway - the housework and all of the related domestic chores.

I can't speak for the others here or the modern (read: "liberated") women in general, but my wife to this day continues to expresses her gratitude to me for having been successful enough career-wise in the early years of our marriage to have enabled her to stay home to raise our children while still enjoying an upper (?) middle-class lifestyle. Similarly, she appreciates all the sacrifices that I made during that time in often enduring jobs that were alternately stressful and/or soul-destroying as the price to be paid for the sake of earning a decent paycheck.

This is not to suggest that my wife was a total homebody and didn't look forward to rejoining the workforce once the time was right, nor that I would have excelled as a "househusband" in her place had the roles been reversed as is now often the case. At the same time, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't miss seeing my kids more during their formative years while I was busy travelling and working the required long hours on behalf of my Corporate masters.

Point is, both sexes are obligated at times to make certain sacrifices, but they are often offset by other (sometimes intangible) benefits that may or may not equal or exceed these at any given moment. Point-for point comparisons as to which alleged "male privilege" trumps a perceived "female privilege" are often futile when you factor basic biology into the equation. As far as I am concerned, it all works out in the long run.

Sure, I can pee standing up, and am not "bothered" by monthly periods. On the other hand, I have never felt the joy of carrying a child for 9 months or breast feeding one, whereas most women (my wife included) consider these to be among the most transformative and life-affirming experiences that they have ever been privy to.

Bottom line - the world would be a far better place if the two sexes would just appreciate each other more as well as the contributions each one makes individually, all the while working together as partners as opposed to the competitiveness and "one-upmanship" that we see so many relationships fall prey to these days.

[Joe Lunchbox]

Joe you sound like you have a lingerie fetish.
Given a binary choice????? What does that even mean?

I will never deny that I have a lingerie fetish. Binary choice means either one OR the other. (Only two choices) In this thread, it seemed like contributors were invited to opine about cross dressing either as a tribute to females or an act of demeaning.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I think by dressing as a woman, and doing it well, you might well lose some of your male privilege.

I've been hit on. OK. I think it was largely due to the affect of beer googles. But, it's not fun. Does he know I'm not really a girl. If he doesn't know, is he going to smash my face in just because his manhood has been dissed? I even have a response ready for such a case. "Sorry, but I'm only into women." It allows him to go back to his buds and say, "I can't beleive she's a Lesbian."

What am I supposed to do? Punch him out? It's really hard to make a fist, and I might break a nail. Kick of my heals so I can defend myself (or run).

I'm very aware that when I dressed and out alone, even in a parking lot, that I'm a target. If I'm seen as a girl, I'm an easy target. If I'm seen as a dude in a dress, I'm probably in worse trouble, at least with some men.

[Becky Blue]

I think it is all about intent, i think that some people may crossdress in a manner that could demean women and/or behave in that way too. However most T Folk are simply being themselves or expressing how they feel which is neither a tribute nor demeaning.