umbrella for trans gender lent from Dr Bowers

[Rogina B]

Not me I think for myself.

"You have to row your own boat in this life"

[Wen4cd]

In case anyone still reading this would like a great example of how these people park themselves among you and steer and control your discussion and thought, just look at how the discussion of Bowers' credibility has suddenly steered itself to the topic of me and my 'tone.'

the tone of your post sounds like a bad hair day, or maybe in my 10 years here, I never realized that is how you write.

Can you please explain in a civil tone why you feel so strongly about that...

...thought you'd have a rational answer....

....sorry to have upset you....

Does this seem odd? Does this seem like killing the messenger? It is.

If anyone still doesn't see why the topic has moved squarely onto me and my "irrational tone," here's why:

From Wikipedia:
"Tone policing (or tone trolling or tone argument or tone fallacy) is an antidebate appeal based on genetic fallacy, which attempts to detract from the validity of a statement by attacking the tone rather than the message."

and here's another:

"Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

While it is not ad hominem to point out clear professional conflicts of interest in someone like Bowers, whose credibility is the question, it is definitely ad hominem to start beating on me for doing the questioning. Unlike Marci, I have nothing whatsoever to gain or lose, so attacking my character is just a cheap shot at my points.

What did I just say about snakes? In my very last post I addressed the topic of these antidebate 'tactics' and how they only serve to make more and more people resent you, and then I once again immediately get punched in the face with them, for the crime of heresy against the cult leader.

I criticize the narrative, therefore I am upset and irrational, thus invalid, and the narrative stands.
See how that works?

I don't see how anyone outside of Bowers' personal fan club sees her as anything but a hack plastic surgeon and carnival con artist who works with desire, envy, deliberate misinformation and ownership of terminology to create a manufactured worldview of synthetic consensus - for the sole purpose of convincing the average crossdresser to feel that life can somehow only improve by purchasing the services of her industry, or by following the path of her life.

She is in the cold, callous business (and personal mission) of creating as many transsexuals out of as many CD's as she can by manipulating consensus, manipulating the definitions of what CD, TG, and TS are, propagating deliberate misinformation, and dangling carrots of false hope. Those who help her are just as culpable, especially those who spread her marketing info at places like this forum where CD's come as a first stop for answers and search for meaning about what they like to do.

Every 'transgender' person who has ever killed themselves in the last 20 years or so has had the gun put in their hand by Marcy Bowers and her ilk and essentially been told "it's my way or the highway, sugar." It's murder.

She's a useless predator, and a figurehead of a useless predatory industry. Nothing more. People may praise her because she pretends to represent them and defend them against 'ignorant haters', when she's only defending her potential income stream and trying to swell her ranks. If people find other ways to integrate their gender, she can't profit. Worse still, her own life choice comes into question if there are valid alternatives.

Frankly I tire of my kind being treated as her kind's fresh meat. I'm tired of watching family after family in the CD community implode, and life after life be destroyed because thousands of people, both clueless and well-meaning, (and those not so well meaning,) continue to propagate her marketing pipedream as the healthy, proper, and medically-consensus approved way of dealing with your desires. I'm tired of coming to this forum and seeing her brand of shit spread around like its authoritative truth.

And I'm really, really tired of those who deliberately spread it because they think they are fighting in some kind of war.

Now that's really all I have to say on her. If you still want to reach out and have a big drink from the cup she offers, you deserve what you get. I will shed my tears for your family, but not for you anymore.

[AllieSF]

So Wen, you do know that this site is open to all trans people, and I am using the umbrella term as used by this site, which has all of us, pantie wearers to full CD dressers to to moving down the path of life, meaning in between and then transsexuals transitioning, transitioned, or not. Marci Bowers messages are not directed toward basic CD's, but to those who feel the need to transition into full time (24/7) living working and being the women or man that they are. She does not need to recruit anyone since she already has a 2-3 backlog of scheduled procedures, as most qualified and experienced surgeons in this area are. We actually need more like them to shorten the wait times. Where does a person who wants to transition and may be considering some physical corrections to their opposite gender body in order to be and feel as a more congruent self get information? What do you recommend? Are you even in favor of someone transitioning and having medical procedures? Do you believe that someone can have a physical body and assigned gender that does not coincide with what that person believes that they are? I ask these questions to try to understand your hard stance and unsubstantiated claims that Dr. Bowers and her kind are the cause of "every" transgender suicide for the last 20 years. Prove it.

Getting people and society to be more tolerating and accepting of all of us and providing the proper legal protections of our rights and professionals from therapists, to surgeons to help us have allowed so many trans people to be themselves and avoid reaching the point of reaching for that weapon or other means to take their own life. They save people, not kill them. So, I call your blame on Dr. Bowers and others BS. What is your recommended solution? Please tell us why you feel so strongly on this and where it has hurt you or someone you know? You have made a lot of serious accusations with little or no backup. If you want to debate, let's do that. But let's not try to outshout each other. Why not ask why I and others think the way we do and answer my questions why you act the way you do?

Issues that CD families have are not related to Marcie Bowers and other similar medical practitioners. They have imploding families because being any kind of trans is disruptive to the third parties involved, family and friends, traditional thinking many times comes off as a NIMBY response to life, someone else can be like that, but not here.

[Lauri K]

I encourage everyone to not base their opinion of Marci on single umbrella slide from a ppt. presentation that has been taken way out of context and even rewritten as if this is some sort of comedy hour we live each day.

Why this is in the CD forum is another matter, I have yet to know a CD who wanted GRS and could pass the standards of care to get GRS.............

This demeaning rant about Bowers is just beyond comprehension

This woman has done so much in career I cannot even begin to write it all here.

She is one of the few surgeons in the world that can successfully perform many difficult procedures and even can perform clitoral restoration on those who were victims of (FGM) female genital mutilation.

So saddening to see this hatred towards one of our biggest allies.

I have retyped my reply to this thread to stay out of jail since I am on parole, but let it be known I am personally appalled to read some of the negative comments on here.

No offense but just saying we look like hypocrites here on this thread

[Wen4cd]

No you all are right. Looking at what I have said in this thread I see I have been condescending and angry. My statements do appear overly critical, even to me.

The problem is that I feel they are true, even after much scrutiny. I can't deny my beliefs, though I can clearly see them as useless and offensive to anyone here.

I think in the final analysis, I just have no place here. I have always been heretical and a devil's advocate, and maybe this is just because I am a jackass.

I had composed a response for the last couple of days that summarizes my thoughts on what gender is, and what it is not, and what transgender is and is not, and outlining the process by which the bad memes we throw around within the community for our own benefit cause grave harm, but I am not going to post it, as it is many thousands of words and also because I feel it will ultimately disrespect the dead.

[AllieSF]

Wen, Thanks for this response. You have been here longer than I have by a few years, and we both have seen or read posts by people that are extremely angry about something and then they take it out or let off steam in someone's thread where they lay it on real deep. Not many like you come back to admit that they may have been wrong i n their approach.That to me is a very positive sign. Just so you understand, some of us regular posters here do not mind that you have a very different opinion than they and I di. But to get our attention regarding a good discussion, aggression does not work most times. Regarding Marcie Bowers, I just repeat what I have read here and what I have personally heard from her patients. So, besides that background info, I am no expert on her. Your view was so different from what I have heard, I really would have liked to understand what was driving your opinion. One reason is to maybe fill in some of my knowledge that may be factually contrary to what I have learned so far. The other is to see if you were just blowing smoke or actually had a valid reason.

Now that being said, you and me and everyone else who are truthful have a place here. So, stick around. Also, I recommend that you try to understand your presentation style in thi9s thread and the why for it. That may help you in the long run, making you a better person for yourself and others. Again thanks for your post.

[Swottie]

In a way, like Wen, my gut dislikes these doctors, psychologists, academics putting labels on people, boxes, pigeon holes. Why do we have to be labeled, and pigeon holed? Unfortunately, that's how human beings function, we stereotype people, objects, events every moment of every day, like it or not. We all make snap judgements based on experiences with similar people, objects and events, our brain are simply not fast enough to process the vast amount of information bombarding us every moment.

In a way, the academics putting labels to people is a good thing, whilst no single one of us will fit perfectly into any one of those labels, it is useful as a starting point for someone to begin to understand the topic. For myself, when I first joined the forum, I was very confused and all the names and labels people used, and something like this infographic would have been useful to me.

So people guys and gals, stop the hate, we're all different, accept each other for goodness sake. (I don't apologise if anyone thinks by asking for acceptance is being discriminatory either, and it's not funny).