Misguided transitioners

[Nikki.]

One of the reasons I feared transitioning was the awareness that men are vulnerable to gender identity fragmentation. Most men are raised by mothers and often have little contact with men or the contact they do have is negative.

Most? Based on what? My empirical evidence growing up viewing friends and family was most boys i knew had a positive male role model in their lives. My father certainly was. very much alpha male, loved and cared for us, payed attention to us, etc.

The boy must separate from the mother and create his own identity when there are little avenues to do this.

Emotionally sensitive boys are often isolated or isolate themselves by avoiding the more ruff and tumble boys.

There is also a strong correlation between sexual attraction to men and MtF transitioners which begs the question is it sexual attraction for men that creates the desire to transition?

yeah, going with Kate on this one. Based on what?

The more you immerse yourself into the world of transgenders/transsexuals the more you see patterns emerge that leaves a rational person concerned about the truth behind their actions as to their motives.

Most do very little questioning and I suspect it is because they wish to avoid what I put myself through by the intensive questioning I pursued.

I haven't been around too many ts or tg peeps that i know of, but i don't know why i would concern myself with their motivations regarding their gender activities?

I was the classic emotionally sensitive pretty boy with big blue eyes and very feminine features. How much of how I looked combined with this high emotional sensitivity contributed to my adoption of a female gender identity in childhood? I see my history in others constantly and it made me very fearful of the reasons for this identity.

I was emotionally sensitive and an outcast and considered a wimp, not a pretty boy. i don't think these attributes caused me to identify as tg; i think i was born tg and these attributes are in part due to my brain being wired that way.

I believe it is anyone's right to identify as transgender or to transition but I do not want to be responsible for being a cheer leader because knowing what I do that would be morally criminal. There are so many forces at work other than gender identity that cannot be refuted or denied if you are honest on the subject.

forces other than gender identity issues that cause people to transition? I'm not doubting your hypothesis, but i'm curious as to what you think those forces are? It's hard for me to imagine anyone choosing to transition genders for any reason other than strong gender dysphoria. I would give a lot to be cis gendered, and to never ever think about any trans related ever again.

I repressed my gender identity and made myself sick. I did not create my gender identity because I was sick or for any other reason. It was always there. Anyone who transitions without being able to say this with 100% conviction is taking a serious risk IMO but even with it always being there and this identity asserting itself constantly I have no illusions that it was created more by circumstances after birth than circumstances before birth.

It was and is both nature and nurture.

I'm curious as to the nurture side of it. I can't think of ANY external force in my childhood that caused me to be this way. i can recall being gender variant around 5.

Because of what men are as to their gender identity and how fragile this identity already is because they were born men I would strongly encourage any man confronted by "Gender Dysphoria" to be extremely cautious and unforgiving in his exploration of the self.

Really? I can't think of a adult single male i know that i would even remotely consider having a fragile gender identity. Even me. Ignoring the denial and looking back, i've known since adolescence.

Protect yourself and do the hard painful work to be absolutely sure. This is especially true for those considering this late in life because it is very unlikely you will pass and often this results in imposed isolation at a time when a person can ill afford it.

I pass 100% this I have no doubt but I also have no doubt that the years living as a male left there mark on me and other women experience me as "different from them" Many assume I'm a lesbian even though I have zero interest in women sexually. I have a hint of masculine energy in small ways like my sense of humor and my logical yet emotional way of thinking.

Living as a male shaped me in ways that are so much a part of me that I do not see it but others do even if it is only on a feeling subconscious level

Now imagine someone in their forties/fifties or older transitioning. This is fine if you are sure you can live with others accepting you has a woman because that is how you identify and they accept this but experiencing you as a man.

Be ruthlessly realistic if you walk down this path or you are setting yourself up for serious heartache.

And than there are the health risks of hormones that you take for the rest of your life.

amen.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I suppose it would all depend on who's asking and why.

LOL, see ..... the ever elusive CD/TG.

[Rianna Humble]

Kelly D, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not trolling, and answer your earlier question

If someone were seriously asking about Gender Dysphoria there is a lot of scientific study out there. Where you get the ridiculous notion that people who transition refuse to take part in studies is beyond me. We live our lives under the glare of scrutiny.

Kelly J has a point of view that she has based around her personal experiences of growing up transsexual. Unfortunately, IMNSHO she generalises from this to the point that sometimes her basic message gets lost in her speculation.

Nothing of that gives people the right to post in this thread merely to insult people with whom they have nothing in common.

[Kelly DeWinter]

No trolling was meant and I offer a sincere apology if i offended any one. The response to my question

"How would you respond to someone who asks for scientific proof, when members of the community are reluctant to participate in such studies ?"

seemed elusive and I tried to turn it into humor, which fell flat. Again I apologize.

Personally I would whole heartily participate in such studies, For me the whole topic of what is gender is something that if it were better understood would make for a better world not just for me but for society as a whole.

I read in these threads a huge array of opinions on what it means to be transgender everything from "I pass 100%", "I would stand out even among basketball players" and even the dreaded "I got clocked when posts ...." . The OP post from Conway read to me as someone passing judgement on people she doesn't even know

To me life is not about passing or not passing, It's about surrounding myself with people who want to know me for me. Unfortunately life is full of people who want to impose their world view on others just because they think they can.

[Georgette_USA]

Kelly's comments aside. Sometimes a little humour is needed, life doesn't have to be so serious all the time.

I hate taking some of these surveys as they assume all TG/TS have problems. They never seem to want to hear of the successes. Took one recently and ask about work situations, I am retired so hard to comment correctly.
Took that very long one from NCTE (I think), and talked with Mara Keisling about that.

I think some (older/longer) have just went on with life, and have no access to these studies, or bother to do them. The surveys have no way to reach those people.
I know from myself and my partner after transition, we just went on with life, and never saw any requests.

[Megan G]

To build on what Georgette said, there are also those of us that have had little to no contact with the trans community so the chances of a survey or study making its way to us is slim to none...

Up until a few months ago I had never met another trans person, I have never been to a pride parade, and have had no contact with the local LGBT community or people within it.

I have nothing against those organizations or the great people in it, I just went on with life as I transitioned, that was very important to me.

As for the question what would I say when someone asks for scientific proof..... to be honest I would tell them to look it up online and that's as far as it would go as I don't talk about trans issues in my personal life.... I keep my medical history private.

[jentay1367]

My point as to why it would be important as to whom may be asking was that many that want scientific empirical proof are often atodds with my posigion and looking for any way they can to discredit me, my life, my world and my existence..........and frankly? those people can go to hell.

[Nicole Erin]

It is a good thing we have people like Lynn Conway out there to help others decide how they should live their own lives.
All this time I have been relying on Alex Jones to help me live mine. I can never find anything to go with the tin foil hat and everyone keeps laughing at me for wearing it.

Had I known a true expert on GID like Conway existed, I would have been taking her advice long ago. She made a lovely transition. Now all she needs is an oral surgeon to help her with those horse teeth.

I wonder if she has anything to say about people like me who were born male but live as a woman ONLY because I like using the women's restroom at Target? I mean if they revoked that, I would have no reason to keep living like a woman.

[Teresa]

Peggy,
I can't see underachievers having the staying power to transition, why would they think it's going to be an easier life, I think it's a load of crap
Besides in the UK they wouldn't get very far in the process if they went the NHS route .

For any member of the TG community to dress confidently enough to go out in public takes some courage to transition takes a whole lot more.

Do any other members know of any hangers on ? I'm sure to most insecure people the whole situation would be too daunting to go near.

I'm sure any underachievers if the are CDers are going to remain buried deeply in the closet.

[LeaP]

Lynn Conway's comments remind me of any number of people I've come across - like Lynn - mostly in support group meetings. They are ... odd. Marginal. Some disturbed. Some sad cases. Some frankly, whacked. With one or two exceptions, it hasn't occurred to me to question their legitimacy. I don't necessarily expect that a trans person present normal ... too much trauma for many. Still, I think questioning their ability to cope with transition is fair.

[jentay1367]

Lynn is very binary. Very, very binary. She relates as a transsexual woman with heterosexual proclivities. She's pretty old school in the sense that if you don't want to follow the role model of the ts woman that has a BA, Vaginoplasty and seeks a heterosexual relationship, you then probably fall into some psychosexual category that borders on perversion or delusion or both. Pretty fixed and pretty old school. But a POV I've found other Transsexual women secretly share and keep to themselves as it's not really politically correct under the present "umbrella". She seems to get to express it freely because she's an M.D. and she's willing to arduously call you out publicly if you question her perspective. This is a big pool with lots of opinions of which hers is one and nothing more. But as I stated, if you publicly call her out, it won't be left unanswered.

[Georgette_USA]

I guess Nicole Erin is taking over the "tongue in cheek" duty.
Who is this "Alex Jones" person, all I could find is some radio guy.

I have looked at pretty much all of "Lynn Conway"'s work. There are some interesting ideas and stats. Yes she does espouse an older TS world ideas.
Like her I am an older long time and very binary, but am anything but limited to Heterosexual. I am very old school on all this, but I am learning to see all the new ideas, and coming to terms with all. I do know of others that share the old ideas, some keep private others express those ideas.

And like LeaP I have seen quite a few in support groups, that may never transition. They have a lot of trauma with all that transition will entail.

[LeaP]

Lynn Conway has an MSEE. She is not a physician.

[KellyJameson]

Here is Blair White https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnQbgShb6r8

& Theryn Meyer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDcB0-Gj_L8

Their thoughts may be relevant to this thread. I personally believe being transsexual is biologically based and that it is an expression of a sexual binary as being intersexed so falls between the binary and science simply allows the person to correct an intersex condition.

It has nothing to do with identity but identity makes the person aware of their intersexuality.

The identity is a manifestation of their intersexuality and begins during the early years when gender identity wrapped up in the search for identity as a whole, asserts itself. Who am I , What am I, What am I not, ect...

That means you cannot wake up one day and become a transsexual. It was always there and if it was not than you are not a transsexual.

[LeaP]

Kelly, I agree that the condition is intersex. However, the internal sense of sex, which is what we're really talking about, is a function of neural development, primarily (though not exclusively) pre-natal. That sense is fundamental and not a manifestation per se of intersexuality, which is merely a description for mixed sexually dimorphic physical characteristics.

It is obvious to me that the sense of sex may be masked, suppressed, or corrupted. I suppose you could regard these higher-conscious conceptions of one's sex as manifestations of realized intersexuality, but the more interesting question is whether the fundamental sense of sex is always binary. I think the answer is no, but that it seems to be extremely rare. The vast majority of intersex people as currently defined are firmly binary. Of all populations, this one should be otherwise expected to display the greatest occurrence of non-binary identities - but they don't. That claim goes to the "TG", the genderqueer. To my thinking, that has all the hallmarks of a different condition.

[Nicole Erin]

The important thing here is you should not live your life according to what someone else thinks you are or are not.
Since there is no definite test to say if someone is TS or not, then how the hell can some schmuck like Lynn Conway know who is or isn't?

Too often there are Tg out there who are trying to determine who are the "true" ones and who are not.

Here is a fact -
Do you know the main difference between some full time passable TS and a non-passing TS who has to travel out of town once in a while just to dress up and enjoy the afternoon?
Money and/or circumstance.

Yet, some of the ones who are further along or get to live it more tend to look down on the less passable or part time ones. Myself, I am full time and somewhat passable, I guess. If not, at least people are nice enough to go along with the act. This doesn't make me any better than someone who cannot do this 24/7. My circumstances are just different.

Some might think that one would think they are TS because of some other mental disorder. Maybe, maybe not but get this -
One thing some people say is they would have killed themselves if they could not live in their "appropriate" gender. That is a mark of good mental health, being willing to give up your ONE life on this earth if you cannot live a certain way.

The whole "woman or man" thing is but an act anyways. Sex is biological and does not change but you CAN change how you act and present. Most important here though - no one else but you can decide which you want to act like and present the outward appearance of. Even if people "know", so what?

[Nikki.]

money, circumstance or a favorable roll of the genetic dice...

[Mirya]

The important thing here is you should not live your life according to what someone else thinks you are or are not.

I agree with you on this point.

Here is a fact -
Do you know the main difference between some full time passable TS and a non-passing TS who has to travel out of town once in a while just to dress up and enjoy the afternoon?
Money and/or circumstance.

But I have to disagree with you here. That's your opinion, not a fact. Actually, on these forums, the official definition of a transsexual (TS) is: "An individual who is changing their assigned birth gender permanently to that of the opposite." So by definition, someone who has to travel out of town to dress up is not a 'non-passing TS'. In fact they are not a TS at all (again, according to this forum's definition of a TS).

[rachael.davis]

Anecdotal - About ten years ago I was presenting male, working as a consultant (financial service operations), and massively in denial. I would pass a fairly sad person during my commute into Jersey City fairly frequently - She was sloppy overweight, usually needed a shave, wore male trousers, and a band T shirt, had multi pierced ears with large hoops in at least two of the piercings, and an elaborate handbag - I'm sorry to say that my judgement over whatever she was doing delayed my acknowledging that I needed to transition for several years.
Yes there are "underachievers", not everyone gets good marks, has the opportunity to get a good education, has "good bones" in their face - I guess I could go on for a while, but they're desperate enough to be out there at whatever level of transition their social, economic, and personal resources permit, and sadly they may be what a large portion of the population thinks "transgender" looks like.
I was in San Diego last week with a dear GG friend, and her husband, I got to be me 24/7 and don't see retreating very far backwards being possible, my two personal bests were using a ladies room (rather than looking around desperately for the "family rest room"), and being on a tall ship (the California) sail for three hours - the only space for a break and run involved swimming. I will admit that I was terrified, I guess I froze up at some point and she said "you're already wearing your big girl panties, start acting like it.
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that yes there are some people who are marginal who are transgender, there are some people who are having mental health issues who are transgender, there are some people who have had "good" male lives who finally throw in the towel and admit they are transgender - it kind of sounds like a normal cross section of humanity in the United States in 2017.

[jentay1367]

and sadly they may be what a large portion of the population thinks "transgender" looks like.

The general assumption is that on one level or another, we are mentally ill. The people that don't think this way are the ones that are lucky enough to know one of us and have the opportunity to interact with us on a day to day basis. And of course, this is no guarantee of their elucidation either. The most unfortunate thing about or community, is that were like the guy wearing a rug or a woman wearing a wig, the only one's you'll ever notice are the ones that look circumspect. The other rug and wig wearers scoot through their world seamlessly. Those unfortunate enough to have a difficult time passing are the spokeswomen for all of us. The only problem with this is that good, bad or indifferent, a very narrow part of the greater whole represents us all. So often times the marginalized in the streets that may or may not be sane, represent us on a level that does us no good simply because they are not only generally easily clocked, but they actually draw attention to themselves with co morbid issues. No one looks at Janet Mock and thinks, there's an actualized human that happens to be trans, they see her and say, there's a beautiful woman and it does nothing to serve our community. That is why I love seeing the people who really pass well vocally advocating for us. I think it's brave and very altruistic of them. We need more of it. I'm always impressed when I meet that archetypal TS woman and thank them profusely for what they do. That behavior raises all ships.
I will also say just as an aside for honesty's sake, if I happen to get to the unclockable stage, I will not be amongst those women. I've no desire to be a trans advocate. I just want to live my life as the woman I was born to be. So I'm part of the problem, not the cure. Our divisive community for the most part makes me think of an old "Pogo" quote that goes...."we have seen the enemy and she is us". Meaning of course that we're our own worst enemies. It is what it is of course and I understand it, but it really does slow us down for being understood by the public at large. We are our own road blocks and walls. Often our individual agenda is quite at odds with the TS Community at large.
It's the strange dichotomy we all live with every day.

[Mirya]

The general assumption is that on one level or another, we are mentally ill.

Yes, it's unfortunate that even the World Health Organization (WHO) still classifies being transgender as a mental illness. Hopefully that will change next year, but for now the haters can still accuse us of having a mental disorder without being entirely incorrect.

[Amelie]

Some of what Lynn Conway says can be applied to me and my life, I use to be very dependent on men. I just don't have the ability to put my thoughts into words cause my brain isn't working anymore. But don't matter what she says, she can't and others can't stop me being a woman.

[Pat]

Yes, it's unfortunate that even the World Health Organization (WHO) still classifies being transgender as a mental illness.

My understanding is that the latest ICD (ICD-11) from WHO will change the classification. It's a matter of waiting out the publishing cycle not a matter of them deciding what they're going to do.

[Nicole Erin]

Yes, it's unfortunate that even the World Health Organization (WHO) still classifies being transgender as a mental illness. Hopefully that will change next year, but for now the haters can still accuse us of having a mental disorder without being entirely incorrect.

See, this has been going on for some time. This or that book or organization classifies Ts as a mental illness. But "next year" that will change, every year they say that, since at least Y2K (that I remember). Here are a couple things to consider -

People that deal with mental health think EVERYone has some kind of "condition". Alcoholic, A.D.D., bipolar, this or that syndrome... Of course with pills and/or therapy, they can "fix" that. That is why so many kids are labeled as "autistic" or one of the synonyms (they keep changing it for some reason, probably to make more money off unknowing parents)
Kind of for the same reason that your mechanic WILL find something wrong with your perfectly fine car, or how some ungodly percentage of the US is considered "obese". Once again, money grubbing scam.

OK so how is it a good thing that they consider TG a mental illness? Is there a chance that insurance MIGHT cover cost of some kind of treatment like HRT or whatever? (shrug) might be something good.

BUT - even if Tg is considered a mental illness, it is not like there is some stigma these days. It isn't like the 1950's where LGBT were to be avoided cause we were some kind of monsters.
Nope, today it is just one more thing to add to their list. Depression, bipolar, ADD... everyone is a mess supposedly. Just all part of society...

Even the hipsters are considered a normal part of society. As weird as they are, at least they caused the vinyl revival.

[jentay1367]

Even the hipsters are considered a normal part of society. As weird as they are, at least they caused the vinyl revival.

Dayam Girl! Leave them poor hipsters alone. They keep the haters off our back to some extent by keeping their hatin' butts busy railing at their total groovynessishness.