Likelyhood of a marriage to survive

[Caroline Varg]

Yesterday was an eventful day. I came out to my brother and sister, their spouses and also to my parents. I explained my feelings about my gender identity, my ongoing therapy and possible transition timeline in 2018. I was met with support and love. My sister even invited me as Caroline out for drinks as girls!

My wife of 14 years held my hand and was very supportive, even through it is hard for her. My wife is straight and is trying her best to cope with the situation. One big step today was when she suggested that she joins me (as Caroline) when I have drinks with my sister and maybe her husband.

My wife and I have also discussed long term consequences for our marriage. Although my wife loves me and fully understands that I need to be true to my gender identity, she does not feel attracted to me as a woman. We have therefore discussed a scenario in which we will continue to be married and raise our three kids in our large house. However, we might have separate bedrooms and have separate partners, even as live-ins. In that way we might not need to divorce.

I'm very interested in any statistics that might be available on the likelihood of a marriage to survive when a husband effectively becomes a wife. Any facts available? Qualified opinions?

[Nigella]

I'm going to get in before you get the "no your marriage won't survive"posts.

It is possible that your marriage will survive transition. Sandra and I have been married for almost 30 years (celebrating later this year). She knew about me being TG six months into our marriage, although at the time I was, in my mind at least, a crossdresser. Fast forward to late 2006, after 19 years of marriage, I went 24/7, still proclaiming to be a crossdresser.

I never had the "I'm in the wrong body" feelings until 2010 when I knew I had to seek help. Sandra told me at that time she "knew" I was TS, she just left me to find out for myself. I have since fully transitioned, SRS, name change, Gender marker change, the whole 9 yards. Throughout this Sandra was and still is, by my side. I gave her the opportunity to walk away but she has made it clear, I am still the same person she fell in love with.

You won't find many success stories but they are out there. They are so few and far between that the "failures" dominate the discussions when it comes to relationships and marriage in particular surviving a transition.

Only the pair of you can decide if your particular marriage will survive, but you have already indicated, at least in its current form, it will not. So the question you really need to ask yourselves is this

Are we staying married in the legal sense alone

We have therefore discussed a scenario in which we will continue to be married and raise our three kids in our large house. However, we might have separate bedrooms and have separate partners, even as live-ins. In that way we might not need to divorce.

Too many pitfalls that I can see in the above scenario which will need to be overcome. I wish you the best and hope that you can find a solution that will work for ALL concerned, you, your wife and kids and not forgetting the potential partners

[Jessicajane]

ok for what it is worth, let me raise an approach that my psychologist suggested I tried when my marriage was in major trouble....

sometimes we can not solve all the issues and have a plan for eventualities at the start, we have to take each day at a time, fight each battle as it arises and what will be will be...

it is so hard to do this...well I found it hard anyway...I wanted the security of knowing what and where we were going to end up, there and then....

as things got worse in the marriage I had nothing to loose so I did as suggested and stopped tying to solve tomorrows issues today....and something amazing happened ...

My partner had struggled with the "embarrassment" of me wanting to become a woman and as I forced an immediate declaration of support and continued relationship, she became overwhelmed and reverted back to her hard line stance and the relationship entered crisis...when I stopped forcing a then and there...and started taking each day as it came, I gave her chance to cope on a day to day basis....

We still have a long way to go and will we survive ...don't know for sure, but her ability to find a form of acceptance has dramatically increased and things that were unimaginable are now being tolerated ....whatever the outcome we are so much happier together...

The point of this to you from the snap shot I can see from your short post is that your wife clearly loves you and although at the moment she cant see a way through if you stop trying to solve tomorrows issues today you might yet find a solution will surface...

whatever the outcome I hope you find the peace that you crave and deserve xx

[Pat]

You might want to look at the books of Jennifer Finney Boylan for an example of a couple who made it through intact. In particular, Stuck in the Middle With You and perhaps She's Not There. (The latter focuses on her transition more than her family life, but it does mention their interactions and coping and the later editions have a nice addendum written by the wife. Marriages surviving seem to be rare, but they happen. Good luck.

[Caroline Varg]

Thanks for your ongoing support, I really appreciate it!

I'm lucky in the way that both my wife and I are quite openminded as persons. We are in fact both active on the bdsm scene, which invariably involves interactions with plenty of people who are all across the gender spectrum and are very open about it. We are also over a year along the path of living polyamorously. In fact, we opened our marriage over a year ago to new partners, effectively becoming polyamorous, in an effort to inject new energy in a otherwise somewhat grey marriage. After our three kids had started to grow up, there was not as much spark in our relationship when we finally has more time for the two of us. After opening up our marriage, my wife immediately found a new poly partner, who is now also her soulmate, besides me. Two weeks ago, we had a commitment ceremony in which my wife and her partner (my metamour) exchanged rings, and I was the conductor. A very nice ceremony. We now plan for my metamour to move into our house in a few years. I also have poly partners, all of them female, but rather as an addition to spice up my love life, as opposed to long term soulmates. My wife even sits in the board of the local polyamorous group, and will be an active speaker on how to live a functioning polyamorous life in the upcoming Stockholm pride week.

All of the above happened without any connection to my transgender journey, which effectively started half a year ago. Well, maybe I have encouraged my wife to start find an extra partner to reduce my guilt of not being the alpha male in her life. This is how I effectively see it, that maybe we can save our marriage, or at least a relationship with our kids under the same roof, if my wife has another male relationship.

I hope that we are not trying to fool ourselves with this setup. We both hope and believe that it will work.

I'm also adopting the stepwise approach to my transition. I've promised my wife, on her request, that I will not make any overt changes in my normal appearance before getting more confirmation from therapists on the actual transition path, presumably in 2018. Therefore I have resisted making holes in my ears or tidying up those brows (despite the obvious need, see picture). By taking it one step at a time, I can see my wife getting more and more accustomed to my transition. We are deeply in love with each other, after all.

Thanks again for all feedback, and keep posting!

Hugs
Caroline

[Mirya]

It is so interesting to see the lengths that Europeans will go to in order to preserve their marriages, to the point of tolerating and accepting infidelity - even in the same house! It's the complete opposite in American culture, where having any type of affair is highly frowned upon, yet there is much higher tolerance for people who have gone through multiple divorces. It's really no big deal to be a divorcee in America, compared to the stigma of such a person in Europe.

I prefer the American value system (obviously, since I was raised in the United States). But I can see how the European way of placing more value in preserving the marriage (and therefore the family) can be of great benefit to children and maybe even better for society in some ways. There are so many broken homes and families in the US; it's really sad.

[KellyJameson]

A marriage is a distinct thing that people enter into. The wedding vows represent this. I'm very conservative in my thinking along lines of marriage and sex so in many ways we are polar opposites.

In my own circumstances I could not make any compromises to another regarding transitioning. It was a do or die affair for me. You do not seem to be at risk so there is less urgency for you and this allows considering others.

The sexual sharing of someone I love and am intensely connected to, would be impossible for me. You seem to be able to do this and the bdsm scene practiced inside a marriage makes the concept of marriage so different from what I think of marriage that it is impossible to predict how your partner would feel about your transitioning but considering what your partner is already capable of it seems likely that they will take your transitioning in stride.

In my opinion your marriage is not a marriage in the traditional sense and because of this it will survive. Hopefully your children are old enough to not need the emotional stability provided by traditional monogamy based marriage.

Most adults I have talked to who experienced in their childhood their parents having multiple partners found the experience distressing.

[Suzanne F]

I am one of those whose marriage has survived. I have been away fir awhile but I have fully transitioned and had SRS 14 months ago. My wife and I are still together today but it has not been easy. I could not compromise about transitioning either and this was difficult for her. We have found a way to continue to love each other day by day. However, it is so hard for both of us to constantly remind each other either who I am or who I used to represent for her. This pain may eventually prove too much. As far as sexuality yes I want to sleep with a man. At this point i have agreed not to pursue this. My wife does not want an open relationship and I am respecting her decision.

[Caroline Varg]

Well, I thank all of you for your honest responses. I am very much interested in your contributions to the subject.

It seems that the concept of opening up a marriage touches a sensitive nerve for some members from the US. Let us all be mindful that the world is a pretty large place, and how we interrelate to one another, including how we view the concept of marriage, can differ, even between Christian countries. Likewise could we probably discuss at length how to define infidelity. As fas as me and my wife are concerned, we are faithful to one another as long as whatever we do is openly shared and not held in secret.

Without completely changing the subject, I'd like to refer members to one interesting article that describes how cultural values is very different across countries in the world. See http://www.businessinsider.com/ingle...r=US&IR=T&IR=T

I attach the picture from Wikimedia Commons for easy reference. Take note of Sweden, high up in the north east, and the US. I'm sure that the concept of marriage has some differences for every quadrant of the map, and no place is necessarily better than the other. Maybe we are quicker to come to a divorce situation the further south you are on the map, and the likelihood of a creative solution to the marriage increases with being in the north?

[Krisi]

......................... We have therefore discussed a scenario in which we will continue to be married and raise our three kids in our large house. However, we might have separate bedrooms and have separate partners, even as live-ins.

Do you seriously think that would work? No jealousy? And what "outsiders" would be likely to participate in an arrangement like that?

Honestly, it reads like many crossdresser/transition fantasy stories on the Internet.

And do you think that would be a good situation for your children to be around?

You say your wife is "straight" and is not attracted to you as a woman. If she loves you for you and not your penis, I would expect her to still love you but possibly not have sex with you. Could you be happy with that arrangement?

[LeaP]

Honestly, it reads like many crossdresser/transition fantasy stories on the Internet.

It sure does.

[Rachel Mari]

We're still married but we're not husband and wife, our marriage in effect ended the day I came out to her six years ago. We still live in the same house with our son (22) and daughter (16), she and I have our own bedrooms. We actually get along really well and we talk so much better now than ever before. Our 28th anniversary is coming up in August.

For us there many advantages to our arrangement.
She travels for work and is usually gone for 4 to 6 months of the year and for me there's no travel in my work, so I stay at home to run the household. She feels so much better knowing that I'm there with the kids, she knows they're safe.

She has a boyfriend that shes been seeing for a couple of years, getting fairly serious, but she has no plans on ever getting married again. He's a nice guy. He's been to the house and we've all been to his house for dinners on many occasions. It's a interesting dynamic, she still talks to me about things that she never talks to anyone else about.

The kids are fine. They have no problems with the way it works, after all, they don't have to switch between households, never have to pack for a weekend at the others house. The biggest thing is that they know they're loved, things are very stable for them and they seem very happy.

There are times when I don't stay at house while she's there but that's just to give her time to be alone with the kids. When we do feel a need to get away, one of us will pack up and take off for a while, usually me because I there most of the time.

She asked me just before she left for three weeks if I thought that we really ever get divorced. I told her that I imagined we would but neither one of us is in any kind of a hurry. When divorce becomes important to one of us, then I guess that's when it'll happen, but we'll always be in each others lives.

Not very traditional but it's really no ones business but ours, so we don't really care what some people might think. We're happy and we take care of each other.

[Caroline Varg]

Let me continue to give you details on our situation, as I sense that not everyone believes it will work. Also, I continue to sense cultural differences based on what part of the world we are from, and what norms have been important in our upbringing. Let me once again remind you that the world is a pretty large place, and that there are a great many different ways of bringing up children under the love and supervision of parents. We might have a natural inclination to believe that our own way of doing it is the "best". However, I'm quite sure that there a children growing up in many different ways across the world being equally happy and equipped for the future. I suggest we leave it at that.

Polyamory is not a fantasy. It is for real, It is a well-known concept that is practiced in many countries. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory for more information. Also, polyamory are not for everyone. Some people feel jelousy, and some not. There is a thriving local poly community, although the concept of polyamory is even more widespread in the US. Pleanty of web sites, pod casts etc are available for reference.

My wife has had her male (poly) partner for almost 1,5 years. He is therefore my metamour, as it is called. As he and his daughter live 4 hours away, he can currently live with my wife only on weekends. One weekend per month he travels to us, and one weekend per month my wife travels to him. This arrangement has now been ongoing for over a year. This summer we are practicing longer periods of him staying here, up to two weeks. My metamour and I really get along well, going out together and engage in construction projects on the house. A few weeks ago we had the commitment ceremony that I referred to earlier in the thread. As the love between my wife and her metamour is no less valuable or important than the love between me and my wife, they decided that they wanted a ring ceremony. They exchanged rings after having given each other commitments - "bound to each other only by the freedom we give each other". I was the conductor, the daughter of me and wife held my wife's ring, and my metamour's daughter held his ring. It was a very touching ceremony for us all, full of love. My wife now carries three rings, her two marriage rings and the ring representing her love and commitment to my metamour. Se attached picture with the hands of my metamour, my wife and myself. We are all very happy with the arrangement, and consider us all part of a family. Once my metamour live in our house full time, we realise that we need to sort out some financial arrangements also, of course.

We have discussed a lot the potential implications of my transition. We are taking one step at a time, so that everyone involved gets a chance to adjust. My wife is wonderful and has even suggested a feminine diamond necklace for my upcoming 50th birthday this fall. I'm happy.

[Kendra Sue]

My wife knows I like to dress but is totally against it. We gave up sex years ago. She is a cancer survivor as am I. There is very little we agree to. Nothing I do seems to please her. I usually just walk away. She jabs me about my panties whenever it is covenient for her. She says I want to control everything. Crossing is my method of escape. It hurts no one and it is my way to relax.

[docrobbysherry]

Carolina, the future relationship u describe for u and your SO is not a real marriage. Without intimacy, close communication, emotional attachment, and with separate partners, I think u will be married in name only and actually be living as roommates.

If u wish to consider that as "staying married" some may rate your possibilities as high as 75%.

However, in my eyes u will not be. So, I give u 2 zero %. Sorry!

On the other hand, I think any way a couple can remain happily together is fair. So, I hope that works for u!

[Nicole Erin]

before anything, remember that the very root of divorces and ruined relationships is having too many disagreements.

Reading some TG divorce stories here, you would think it was -
1) couple is in otherwise perfect relationship
2) TG comes out, fight ensues
2) Next day, they are in the legal divorce process

On here, of course any Tg who is divorcing is going to emphasize the fact that the "other half" could not deal with the transition. As if that were the sole issue.

But no, marriages that have lasted at least a few years take time to break down IF they are even going to, usually many factors at work. One of the big reasons I ended up divorced was cause of how I live (being TG) but there were other things like not agreeing where to live, how to handle finances, how to raise our kid, etc. Though the legal divorce was pretty much "over night" as we had no assets to fight over, but the social divorce started two or three years prior. We knew it was coming.

There is always a possibility that one spouse will just "jump ship" in the middle of the night but usually, problems start LONG before anyone sets foot in divorce court. The good news there is you would have a chance to work things out.
There is no way to tell what will happen with you and the wife. Remember, relationship dynamics is very much a case by case thing. If the partners agree on non-traditional arrangements, things should be fine.

Do you seriously think that would work? No jealousy? And what "outsiders" would be likely to participate in an arrangement like that?
Honestly, it reads like many crossdresser/transition fantasy stories on the Internet.

Only if the "Aunty" (pronounced like Ah-nty) comes over and shames the TG, making her wear a frilly dress to the mall and she feels deep shame...

Plus, if the "outsiders" happened to be some lazy men who are in it for a free place to shack up, I imagine they could care less about what label is affixed to the relationship. "Yeah yeah, polyamory it is" as he hogs the wifi and computer, cleans out the fridge, clogs up the toilet, gets a free piece of ass from some married person, and wants to use the garage to work on a "classic" Camaro he found on craigslist and is "restoring". He also just lost his job (one week after moving in) cause he cussed out the boss.


Carolina, the transition is one thing but REALLY be careful about letting house guests come and "stay". People get in and then decide they don;t have enough money to help with bills.

[Caroline Varg]

Well, I think we are approching a closure to this thread. I started the discussion with one simple question - if there are any facts or statistics available on the likelihood of a marriage to survive. As the discussion invariably tends to question our polyamorous setup instead, I suggest we put and end here. Thanks everybody for contributing!

[Nigella]

As the OP appears to want no further contributions to this thread it is now closed