Asked and answered. Over and over. Only the face of the "disruptive element" has changed. Fear and ignorance has simply found a new thing to fret about.Originally Posted by vicky_cd99_2
Asked and answered. Over and over. Only the face of the "disruptive element" has changed. Fear and ignorance has simply found a new thing to fret about.
I get where you are coming from. I am just going on my personal time in. I had a drive and determination to suppress that thing "I thought was wrong". I also had an internal anger that fueled my aggression and motivation to complete tasks assigned to me that most service members aren't assigned. I am a more mellow person after accepting who and what I am. I don't even hunt anymore since coming out. That drive to prove my machismo is not there. And that is what fueled me to succeed in the mission. My effectiveness would have changed. I still have the want to succeed but not by stepping on you to get there. I salute anyone willing to step up and wear the uniform. My reasons for questioning or torment if you will is from my personal time in not what others say.
In light of current events, I see this thread as pertinent to this community. Specific swipes at political parties and those who lead or belong to said parties won't be allowed. While some see this as anti________ others see it as pro-Trans. So let's keep it middle of the road without aiming towards a specific party or person. Thanks
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
The Pentagon has continued with integration plans and has come out with what appears to be tacit support for those currently serving.
I consider this to be a thread about policy, which is tied to the administration which is supporting it.
To summarize how wrong this decision is, and how blatantly discriminatory it is, I offer you these four quotes. You decide
a) Our military must be focused on decisive and overwhelming victory and cannot be burdened with the tremendous medical costs and disruption that [sic] they in the military would entail
B) This policy would “seriously impair the morale of the Army at a time when our armed forces should be at their strongest and most efficient.”
C)During the brief period of time when they’re being socialized into the ethos of the military, it’s counterproductive to have [sic] them train together. The attraction and distraction of sexuality is detracting from the effectiveness of basic training.
D)“The problem of having them serve openly, is the extent to which it becomes a divisive cleavage point in small units.”
Answers:
a) "official" declaration of transgender ban via Twitter- 2017
b) U.S. Sen. Lister Hill of Alabama argued that integration of African Americans - 1947
c) Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md.) on discussing the issues of having women serve in the military -1997
d) A retired Army colonel said during a hearing on the issue in of having gays serve in the military - 1993
Last edited by GretchenJ; 07-30-2017 at 06:38 PM.
Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger (later promoted to Sargent) was a character on a comedy show here in the states. It was set in a mobile army surgical hospital, during the Korean War, hence the name of the show, M*A*S*H.... The actor who played the role was almost as hairy as an ape. His story line was that he hated being in the Army so much he wore dresses in hopes that he would be deemed crazy and given a section 8 discharge.
Attachment 280335
we need a like button or something for this below....
....Mykell
i dressed like a girl and i liked it!crossdressing...theirs an app for that
I volunteered to serve in the US Navy back in 1975. The Vietnam War had just ended, but if it had lasted another 6 months I could have been drafted for combat service.
I served as a Data Systems Technician, and I was a third class petty officer aboard a guided missile cruiser. I saw duty in the Medeteranian, Atlantic and Pacific. I gave it my best effort, and even got a letter of commendation.
Back then, the concept of 'transgender' barely existed in public thought. We heard of the tennis star Renee Richards' sex change, and of musician Walter Carlos becoming Wendy Carlos, but they were exceptions. Generally, someone who cross dressed was believed by the public to be either an entertainer going for laughs, or a 'kinky transvestite'. I knew I was bi, but was deeply in denial and trying to 'play it straight'. But I just did not do well living in close quarters with other males. Decades later I would realize that had been my feminine aspect rebelling about undressing in front of a crowd of men. At the time, the conclusion was, "You're gay but you did your best and never caused trouble", and they gave me an honorable discharge.
In today's military, not counting the orange one's ranting tweets that have yet to become official policy, I could probably have acknowledged being MtF Trans, and found a way to continue to serve, but as a woman.
While I disagree or will if it becomes official, which a tweet is not BTW- of a full ban of TG in the military, I wish to express some of my thoughts and opinions on the subject.
1st I served in the USAF 1983-1986. Just so that it be known that I have an idea of what military life is about. My main belief about serving in the military is the essence of the word, to serve. We are there to serve, not to be served. It is currently a voluntary service, no longer a draft, so we currently are not made to be in the service.
As I stated, I disagree with a general ban on TG serving, BUT- what I believe the U.S. military should not be made to do is accommodate someone with any transgender issues. In other words, the military should not have to spend money on a members transition. They should not have to make any special exemptions to a member for their issues such as which uniforms they wear, that they should be able to grow their hair long etc etc due to their gender issues or their daily identity issues. If someone goes into the military and decides its just more than a passing fancy of CDing and it's time for transition, It is not the military's responsibility to them to have it done, or to accommodate them with not only the money spent doing so but the time spent away from active duty for surgery and treatment etc etc.
It is not about whether or not any one person can or can't. It is about readiness. If a person is going through the life changes of transition, or that their gender issues makes them not able to perform on a daily basis of a particular job because one day or the next they are not feeling male or female, they should not be awarded multiple jobs or an extra wardrobe of uniforms for their current or daily changing identity.
A person who has fully transitioned, surgically, legally can and should be able to serve. CDers can still CD, but not while on duty. And as anyone, which is part of the readiness aspect, be prepared to be called into action at any moment. As a soldier, sailor or airmen, you are so 24/7.
So, yes, I believe that a person who if they wish to serve and identifies as TG can still serve, but as is essence with the word serve, that is what they are there to do, not be served for their TG issues.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
This is an awesome post GretchenJ. It's just too easy to be complacent and ignore the study of history. Our country has been here before
GretchenJ;
Right on Point. People have to understand that the decision as to who can and cannot serve is about Policy.
In that note:
Admiral Paul Zukunft, the Commandant of the United States Coast Guard instructed his office to reach out to the 13 Coast Guardsmen that have self-identified as transgender. and said ‘I will not turn my back. We have made an investment in you, and you have made an investment in the Coast Guard, and I will not break faith.'”
Thanks for sharing Admiral Zukunft's words, Kelly. They are the words of a true leader, one who has earned the trust and respect of his subordinates. Every last one of our service men and women deserve no less.
US Army 13B 94-97
Gendermutt,
I'm sorry but you are wrong with these comments.
The first point is although Marcelle no longer contributes in the forum she gave us a blow by blow account of being accepted by the Canadian army as a TS . There are increasing numbers in transition in the UK forces , the cost of training is far greater than the cost of accommodating them , all the forces and public services are now realsing this point . The other side issue is giving them assistance often avoids self harm or suicide . Besides they can't now discriminate by law .
The point about being there to serve and not be served, now days service life is considered a career , it's a job for which you you receive a wage, and like any employer now they are bound by the same employment guidelines.
If you read my post I'm not objecting to tg in the service. I remain firm on my belief about issues such as transition while serving, or making exceptions and exemptions based on a person being tg. What other countries do imo doesn't make it better, ok or correct simply because. The argument of well this country does xyz, so we should too. It may work for one country or group of people but not necessarily another.
The military has always had career options and it's members have always received paychecks and other benefits for their service.
Lastly, being a voluntary service, and in any voluntary employment, my belief is that the employer gets to make whatever rules it wishes to and if a person desires to work for them, they should abide by those rules. Dress codes, behavior standards, pretty much anything.
When you're discriminating because of things that people can not choose, no. You do not get to make whatever rules you wish. And the argument isn't that it's the right thing to do because other countries do it. It's an argument that we stand out as backwards and puritanical, yet again, because we don't treat all of our citizens with the respect that they deserve.
Really this comes down to administrative discrimination, what is going to happen to the gay/lesbian and non transition serving people? are they going to be shown the door. Surely it should come down to whether one can do the job they were assigned to do properly irrespective of their gender and if they can then why bar them from being in that job or barring them from applying for those jobs in the first place?
I don't want to sound political but surely himself in the white house is guilty of gender discrimination.
These are public photos of openly serving Transgender Service members. Look closely at some of the medals they have honorably earned. Just wanted to show that TG service members are not a burden to the military and deserve support.
HT_jennifer_peace_ash_carter_sparta_jt_160630_4x3_992.jpgsrc.adapt.960.high.military_trans.1436385757434.jpgtumblr_nvt3qyrCsJ1qfwfqio1_500.jpg
I previously posted my pic in the "Who We Are" forum on 28 July: post 4127363
Those were my decorations from my Navy career.
Warmly,
Sheren Kelly
Update
Some of the Military Branches are starting to close ranks in support of Transgender Service Members
First the Coastguard and Now the Navy. Hopefully the other Branches of the Military will support their Service Members soon.
"U.S. Navy Secretary Richard V. Spencer said he would follow directions from the president on transgender people in the military but believes "any patriot" should be allowed to serve."
Ok as a vet, are they saying you can't dress at all off duty I assume or is it when you are working or on duty you must be dressed in uniform no exceptions period. Or are they saying you can't be a corporal klinger.
Isn't the military primarily for defence?
I'd like to thank all military, ex and serving, members who have put themselves in harm's way to protect us. You are frequently treated appallingly and with ingratitude, by politicians who've never worn a uniform. You deserve great respect.
I used to have a short attention spa
It's really hard to say right now, there are some service members who dress according to their gender identity with the support of their commands, their are others who do not receive support. Defense Secretary Mathias has held up implementing President Trump's ban until a review is completed and he get's further guidance from the white house. What this means for TG service members is anyone's guess. It's the first time to my knowledge that an Executive Order has been technically disobeyed, be i could be wrong.
I already wrote to my United States Senators and indicated Trump's edicts should not stand. This is nothing more than discrimination against a certain segment of society. In the military it is a case as to whether any soldier, sailor, airman or woman, or marine is fit to serve in any military occupation specialty. It will be interesting to see how this all develops. It is one thing to deny enlistments to otherwise qualified men and women. It is another to discharge currently servicing men and women who are meeting all standards, especially since it is a volunteer military. It is be interesting to see what develops since those serving signed contracts with their service branches. And, how will those who signed reenlistment papers with the service branch fully knowing he or she is transgender be treated? Service members come under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. How will an executive order from the commander-in-chief supercede the UCMJ when gays, lesbians and transgender men and women meet the standards of the service.
Me? 11B20, US Army 1960-1971, Viet Nam, Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster
i declare my support to the TG's military ....i think this is very courageous to be one and yet be taking all the pressure serving the country ....love you girls
Cross-dressing is a cross between woman's soul and man's heart.....
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