Are you TS?

[Nigella]

Being TS is not about having the correct bits rather than the defects, removing dominent male/female features, sexuality and all the other miriad of things that you read about. Being TS is living the life that you know you should actually have been born into.

Does it make you any less a Woman/Man (yep I said Man, being TS is not just M2F) because you still have the birth defects, a prominent adams apple, baldness, shovels for hands. Hell no, just take a look at society, with the exception of twins, triplets etc, no two people are the same and some features are more dominent than others.

Some will try to say you are not TS because you have not had surgery, WRONG, there are some who for whatever reason CANNOT have surgery. Why should they be invalidated as Women/Men just because birth defects are still present. In fact, in the UK we are fortunate that even the government accept that surgery is not a definition of being TS.

Whilst there is, at present, a requirement for a Gender Specialist to confirm a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria, the only other requirement that they ask for is that you have lived the life of your "new" gender for two years and that you are not likely to return to your life in the "old" gender. If you can satisfy these two criteria you can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate which will allow you to get a new birth certificate with the correct gender.

... and then to answer my own question, Are you TS? Hell yes, but not because of some preconcieved opinion of "elitists" but because I am living the life I should have been born into and was doing so for many years before I had any "medical" intervention.

Of course this is only my opinion, it is as valid as yours, not anymore or any less. Take from this what you will

[AllieSF]

I totally agree with your statements. I have seen here over the years people with varied opinions try to limit who really are transwomen. I don't think I have ever seen that in the transmen section. You are what you are. After realizing or discovering the truth, what you do with it is your own choice. You also do not have to suffer through it all, though that is difficult to avoid, nor be ready to kill yourself to transition. I do not take the last scenario as what most truly mean, but do understand the need to caution wannabe TS's.

[Pat]

I'm in kind of a gray area. My gender, as I experience it, requires me to present female to be happy so I've had medical intervention to make my body look right to me. I live and work in that presentation 24/7 and am out to everyone. I've even changed the gender markers on my IDs. So I've "transitioned" medically, socially and legally. The only reason I don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum is that I'm non-binary. So I transitioned to live as authentically as I can as a third gender in this two-gender society. In my mind, I'm "non-binary TS" and so yes, I'm TS. But by the rules, I'm not.

If you can satisfy these two criteria you can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate which will allow you to get a new birth certificate with the correct gender.

Do you mind if I ask where you are? I'm in Massachusetts and here you can change your birth certificate with just an affidavit and a letter from an MD saying you've had "appropriate treatment" to amend the gender marker listed. (And, of course, a court order for name change if you're changing that too.) No "time in gender" requirement that I'm aware of, though your doctor might be unwilling to sign if you don't seem socially adapted.

[Nigella]

Do you mind if I ask where you are? I'm in Massachusetts and here you can change your birth certificate with just an affidavit and a letter from an MD saying you've had "appropriate treatment" to amend the gender marker listed. (And, of course, a court order for name change if you're changing that too.) No "time in gender" requirement that I'm aware of, though your doctor might be unwilling to sign if you don't seem socially adapted.

I am in the UK Pat. The path we need to follow is recognised throughout the UK and as there is only one "authority" it makes it simple. There is no requirement for "appropriate treatment" although that is one of the paths that can be used, in that case a GP can sign the relevant forms, stating which surgery has been completed.

[Mirya]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.

I went to a transgender support group meeting last night, and the vast majority of the attendees were CDs or NBs. As always, I enjoyed my time there and am happy to count many of them as friends, but there is still a difference between me (a TS) and them. Yes we are all transgender people, but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention. And if someone doesn't experience that level of distress, that's ok, maybe even better since you don't have to put yourself through the emotional and physical trauma of invasive surgery, but in my mind I'm just unable to regard a completely non-op woman as a TS.

Sorry, but that's my opinion and I hope you can respect my point of view even if you don't agree.

[jentay1367]

Do you mind if I ask where you are? I'm in Massachusetts and here you can change your birth certificate with just an affidavit and a letter from an MD saying you've had "appropriate treatment" to amend the gender marker listed. (And, of course, a court order for name change if you're changing that too.) No "time in gender" requirement that I'm aware of, though your doctor might be unwilling to sign if you don't seem socially adapted.

This would make my life so much simpler. I've set my GCS date foe PAI in Thailand. I have "his" Identification including Passport and Drivers License. I live in a State that is let's say, less than progressive. They will not give me a Drivers License in this State till I have the bottom surgery. It's a logistics nightmare. My intention is to "lose my license" and get a new one issued with my new picture since I look substantially different than the one I possess now. Then I will travel as a male to Thailand. 45 days later I will be coming home with girl parts. I will have a letter from PAI at that point. Then I can petition a Court here in hillbilly land to give me a new license in my name and get a valid passport and have my Birth Certificate changed. Oh to be in California or Massachusetts! The work I'm forced to do and the workarounds I have to endure to appease ignorant haters simply sucks!

[Megan G]

The only reason I don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum is that I'm non-binary.

Pat, no offence but you don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum or anywhere.... and that's ok....your NB.....

The definition of TS specifically says
: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

With that said your gender identity (according to you) is not male, not female... it's NB. So your identity is not opposite of your birth gender, and that right there makes you not TS......EVERYWHERE

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.

I would agree with that, but also note that if they cannot have surgery becuase of health reasons that would not make me see them any differently.

Again just my opinion, and not being elitist....

[Kelly DeWinter]

We are in an age of verbal gymnastics over many things these days. Our community has many members who take many years to change their Sex ot meet their gender identity. It seems to be a good idea to be sure before making any changes. Just be yourself and be happy.

[Pat]

There is no requirement for "appropriate treatment" although that is one of the paths that can be used, in that case a GP can sign the relevant forms, stating which surgery has been completed.

Ah. I wasn't clear, sorry. "Appropriate treatment" under our rules could be as simple as seeing a gender counselor, if that's all you as a person need. Or it could go to full confirmation surgery -- that's up to the MD who writes the letter. It mirrors the WPATH V7 guidance that a transition is specific to the individual and can be non-binary in nature.

Pat, no offence but you don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum or anywhere.... and that's ok....your NB.....

The definition of TS specifically says
: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

With that said your gender identity (according to you) is not male, not female... it's NB. So your identity is not opposite of your birth gender, and that right there makes you not TS......EVERYWHERE

No offense taken. I don't expect my view to resonate here right away. But I'm thinking that the biggest factor of a binary TS's (humor me for a moment) transition isn't the surgery -- as already mentioned, there may be reasons why a given person can't get that. Those reasons don't invalidate the individual. The biggest factor, to me, is the complete life change, replacing the false gender with the correct one in unambiguous and pretty much irreversible steps. So to me I transitioned to my correct gender which is wholly different than the one assigned me at birth.The fact that in our culture that gender has no name at the moment is a clerical detail.

[Rianna Humble]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery.

Mirya, I respect both your right to hold and to express an opinion, but perhaps you could help me understand your point of view more clearly.

When I began my transition I was sure that I would have Gender Confirmation Surgery within 2 - 3 years at most. Unfortunately, I have diabetes and struggle to contain my weight which made the surgeons reluctant to consider me - did I cease to be transsexual at that point?

Since then I have developed hypothyroidism, hypertension and borderline pancreatitis meaning that the surgeons are now reluctant to offer me any surgery - even the cholecystectomy recommended to reduce my risk of developing cancer - is this when you consider that I ceased to be transsexual?

I began my transition over 7 years ago. Thanks to my previous standing in the community I was outed by the local press very early in my transition, that was picked up by the national and international press and went viral on the net (just google my name to see what I mean). Since then I have lived and operated unwillingly in the spotlight - even when I undertook a supposedly private attempt to be selected to stand for political office, it made it to the international press though not the rejection of the people who didn't want a TS candidate.

I have lived and worked as the woman I always knew myself to be since 1st July 2010 and very few people reject my status so by most people's definition I would be classed as transsexual.

My job entails supporting people with computer problems - most of them accept who I am. My work as a Trades Union representative involves me representing other people - no-one there has objected that I am a phoney.

In my unofficial work supporting abused women (most of whom are too scarred to trust a man), none has ever rejected me because I have not had the surgery that would make me whole.

I must admit that it saddens me to think that a member of this community does not accept me simply because I am unable to have any kind of surgical procedure.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Saddens me too.................................

[Nigella]

... so I've had medical intervention to make my body look right to me.

Would you mind saying what medical interventions you have had?

I've even changed the gender markers on my IDs.

I don't wish to assume, so would you mind saying what gender marker you now have?

So I've "transitioned" medically, socially and legally. The only reason I don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum is that I'm non-binary.

So if you have completed the "full transition" what have you transitioned to? Does your legal system allow you to have a gender definition of Non Binary?

So I transitioned to live as authentically as I can as a third gender in this two-gender society.

Is this third gender a legal recognised gender, I do know that there are moves afoot to allow people to declare themselves NB, but I'm not sure if there is anywhere that will accept this as a legal gender.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery.

That is your belief and it is not one that can be denied you, the flaw I find is that planning and doing are two completly different things

Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.

For some, and I count myself in this, the GD is not strong enought to "feel wrong". In my case my GD did not really kick in until my late 40s, up until then I was happy to live as a man, dressing as and when. Throughout my assessment I never felt that I "needed" anything, it was dealt with as and when, I was also mentally prepared for the worst case, so some can live with the deformities because their mental state helps them.

I went to a transgender support group meeting last night, and the vast majority of the attendees were CDs or NBs. As always, I enjoyed my time there and am happy to count many of them as friends, but there is still a difference between me (a TS) and them. Yes we are all transgender people

Yes there is a difference, but that is only in the mind, I felt for 40 odd years that I was a crossdresser, I lived with that, but later on realised that I was TS. I was not a different person going from CD to TS, nothing changed, just my view of my place on the TG spectrum

but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention.

In this I disagree, there are members here who still have their deformities, they accept them and live as women, they have dealt with the GD. What you may be describing is Body Dysmorphia, the inability to live with the body nature gave them.

And if someone doesn't experience that level of distress, that's ok, maybe even better since you don't have to put yourself through the emotional and physical trauma of invasive surgery, but in my mind I'm just unable to regard a completely non-op woman as a TS.

I'm glad to see you recognise that it's OK to not experience the level of distress you describe and so may be able to avoid the turmoil of surgery. I respect your denial of non-op women as being TS, however, just read that last bit back again, NON-OP WOMEN means that you accept them as women, albeit with the birth deformities, but you will not accept that they are TS?

Sorry, but that's my opinion and I hope you can respect my point of view even if you don't agree.

There is no need to apologise for having an opinion, I respect your view and yes I don't agree with it, that does not make it any more valid or invalid as the next persons.

[Pat]

Yes we are all transgender people, but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention.

I don't dispute that the above is your opinion, but I also don't think you're on solid ground trying to evaluate my level of dysphoria without knowing anything about me. My dysphoria-issues were things that don't need invasive measures. Electrolysis and hormones have been working for me. I basically needed to change my facial hair (electrolysis) and body hair and shape (hormones) to overcome my dysphoria areas. Sure, if I had the disposable income I'd love to have breast augmentation surgery but having my tiny hormone-developed breasts moved my feelings from dysphoria to mere dissatisfaction. I can live with that. It only matters to me to know they're there - I'm not doing this for anyone else. And same, really, for FFS -- if I had the money, sure, why not? I'd like to be prettier; have an upper lip; pull my hairline forward. But when I look in the mirror I see a face not too far removed from other older women. It's dissatisfaction, not dysphoria. I get that TS folks have much worse dysphoria than I and they have it about things that don't bother me. It doesn't invalidate me. I can live with the differences because I'm not a woman, I'm a transgender person and I feel I look like I should. (Naturally, I hope there'll be greater changes from the hormones -- I've only been on a year -- but if there aren't, I'm not going to go into a self-harm spiral.)

Nigella -- for readability, I hope you don't mind if I collect your questions into one big quote and address them in order. I don't know of a technique that would let me preserve your quotes of me in my quote of you, so they'll look a little disjoint.

Would you mind saying what medical interventions you have had?


I don't wish to assume, so would you mind saying what gender marker you now have?


So if you have completed the "full transition" what have you transitioned to? Does your legal system allow you to have a gender definition of Non Binary?


Is this third gender a legal recognised gender, I do know that there are moves afoot to allow people to declare themselves NB, but I'm not sure if there is anywhere that will accept this as a legal gender.

My medical interventions are non-invasive - electrolysis, hormones and I suppose voice training might or might not count but it was with a speech therapist attached to a local hospital. (Edit:Thinking on it, I suppose therapy should also count as a medical intervention, so that too.)

Because I have shifted my presentation to the female and because it really upsets me to be reminded of having pretended to be male in my past, I had my gender markers changed to Female. That's still not correct, but it's like the instructions they give on some standardized exams: "If none of the available answers seem correct, choose the one that seems most correct." So that's what I did. What have I transitioned to? Again, there isn't a word for it. I accept "transgender person" as good enough for the moment. Neither male nor female but still possessing a stable gender. Being that thing transformed me from a very unhappy male-impersonator to an extremely happy "transgender person." And I think there are more people like me out there, though probably not as many as there are TS folks.

I'm not aware of a place in the US that offers a gender marker of transgender or non-binary or anything of that nature. One of our western states recently passed a law allowing people to choose a marker of "X" on their driver's license but the definition of X is "gender unspecified" -- it does not mean anything else. So, no, my "third gender" is not a legally recognized gender in the same sense that male or female are. The Massachusetts transgender rights law (currently under attack) does recognize that transgender people encompass more than just transsexuals and they recognize that folks like me can attest "appropriate treatment," which may or may not include therapy, hormones and/or surgery, and move from one gender marker to another, though they're pretty clear that they expect your marker to remain stable after changing. As I told the examiner at the Vital Statistics bureau, I won't be back unless Mass decides to authorize a gender marker for trans -- in that case he can expect to see me the next morning.

[Teresa]

Nigella,
I'm heading to this situation myself in the next few months, when I separate from my wife and move into my home. I intend to dress as much as possible, I'm hoping it will finally provide me with the answers I've been asking for so long, as you remark, " Am I TS ?"

I know I'm living with GD and AGP, but up to now I haven't been able to think clearly because of my DADT situation.

Some reading this will probably say if you don't feel the deep need you're not TS , as you say you need to live the life .

[Heidi Stevens]

As I read the responses, I notice that there are so many perseptions on how we see ourselves as TG and TS. We all seem to suffer from GID, but how we get to a condition of peace and self assurance that we are "whole" is a variant as it can be. I tend to consider anyone living as a female full time, with legal name change, to be Trans sexual. All of the corresponding "extras" such as HRT, FFS and GRS are for that individual to achieve peace of mind. Some need it, some don't.
I'm still living as a male, for reasons I've explained before, and consider myself TG. I'm on HRT and I've had some facial hair removal, but I present as male. And I am happy where I am right now. Nothing is pushing me to go farther. I think that's the place we are all looking for and each of us must do what we have to to make that place in our lives.

[Kelly DeWinter]

OP ...... "just because birth defects are still present" .........

Is being born Male or Female a Birth Defect or is Gender Identity the Birth Defect ?

It's almost like "Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg ?"

Both sides of the question have been arguing this for years ?

[jentay1367]

I really do hate the birth defect analogy. It certainly represents something amiss, but birth defect? It's a smite to everyone that possesses one. It's a perfectly fine thing to possess if you want one. It's also an insult to every thalidimide afflicted child or person born with some physical abberation or another. In an age where we live as people that expect proper pronouns as well as sensitive language being used to describe us, we also need to show the same respect to others and their right to be shown respect. Using euphemisms like this one serve no one.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Nigella,
I'm heading to this situation myself in the next few months, when I separate from my wife and move into my home. I intend to dress as much as possible, I'm hoping it will finally provide me with the answers I've been asking for so long, as you remark, " Am I TS ?"

I know I'm living with GD and AGP, but up to now I haven't been able to think clearly because of my DADT situation.

Some reading this will probably say if you don't feel the deep need you're not TS , as you say you need to live the life .

This was my plan

After separating and getting the freedom to "Dress" my GD exploded
.....taking off my clothes became an exercise in shame and sadness...i was transitioning within 2 years..

[Rianna Humble]

I really do hate the birth defect analogy.

I understand your point of view, but it is a defect that impacted on my quality of life and even on my ability to function at all.

[Nigella]

I really do hate the birth defect analogy. It certainly represents something amiss, but birth defect? It's a smite to everyone that possesses one. It's a perfectly fine thing to possess if you want one. It's also an insult to every thalidimide afflicted child or person born with some physical abberation or another. In an age where we live as people that expect proper pronouns as well as sensitive language being used to describe us, we also need to show the same respect to others and their right to be shown respect. Using euphemisms like this one serve no one.

I disagree with your smite comment I did not point to anyone in particular when I described, in effect a penis, a lack of breasts, a prominent adams apple, no hips to speak of, etc, etc, so to me they were birth defects, but if you read that to be a view on anyone who does not have a "perfect" body, you are barking up the wrong tree.

To put it in perspective, my younger sister was born with meningitis, it left her with one side of her body partially paralysed, she has never had the use of her hand on that side, she has had to wear a caliper all her life, was she born with defects, hell no, she was born the way she was.

As I stated in my opening post

Of course this is only my opinion, it is as valid as yours, not anymore or any less. Take from this what you will

unfortunately you appear to have taken my comment on birth defects as a general comment on anyone who was not born "perfect" as opposed to reading it as a personal view on having bits I did not want, or not having the bits I did.

[jentay1367]

Hi Nigella and Rianna, It certainly wasn't a dig at you. I'm sorry if either of you took it that way. I've heard the analogy used a bunch of times in our community and I just think it's inappropriate. That doesn't make either of you or anyone else wrong. It's simply my opinion and I was voicing it. I hope you haven't taken my comment personally as it certainly wasn't meant that way. With kindness, Jess

[Nigella]

Not at all Jess, I just wanted you to understand that the use of this analogy is based on my own view of my body. We all can take "offence" depending on how we read something and our mood at the time, but I try not to be offended by comments made in such an impersonal manner such as a forum

[Teresa]

Kaitlyn,
At the moment my wife is putting me in a strange situation, she thinks she can still have a DADT arrangement. She questioned if I would take tablets ( her words ), she is talking about me being available whenever to do her home maintenance, she thinks all I want is the freedom to dress freely inside my new home. She still doesn't grasp why I need this space, she can't accept the thought of me going out dressed more than I do now .

I guess after 42 years of marriage it will take some getting use to .

[jentay1367]

We all can take "offence" depending on how we read something and our mood at the time, but I try not to be offended by comments made in such an impersonal manner such as a forum

I will consider that information and learn from it. Thank you.

[Mirya]

Post #12 in this thread incorrectly attributes many quotes to me, when they were actually Pat's words. I'm sure it was just a mistake in formatting. I'd really rather not get bogged down in line-by-line replies here, as I feel that's better handled in a private conversation, but I do want to reply to one comment in particular:

I'm glad to see you recognise that it's OK to not experience the level of distress you describe and so may be able to avoid the turmoil of surgery. I respect your denial of non-op women as being TS, however, just read that last bit back again, NON-OP WOMEN means that you accept them as women, albeit with the birth deformities, but you will not accept that they are TS?

Yes, I accept non-op women as women, but not as TS. Why? Because I recognize the difference between gender and sex. Gender (i.e. gender identity) is the gender that we identify with in our minds and in our social roles. Sex has more to do with physical traits - biological and anatomical differences. This distinction is nicely illustrated in the popular Genderbread Person diagram.

In my view, gender identity always takes precedence over anatomical sex when addressing and treating someone as male or female. Therefore I will always, always respect and regard a female-identified person as a woman, regardless of physical traits. However, I'm unable to see them as a transsexual because the very word itself denotes someone who is sexually (i.e. anatomically) female.

Consider the word 'intersex'. Why do we use 'intersex' instead of 'intergender'? Because they were born with ambiguous physical (sex) characteristics. In the same way, I believe that the word transsexual should be used to describe a transgender woman who has or will have female anatomy.

edit: bold typeface in some words for emphasis