Are you TS?

[Nigella]

Being TS is not about having the correct bits rather than the defects, removing dominent male/female features, sexuality and all the other miriad of things that you read about. Being TS is living the life that you know you should actually have been born into.

Does it make you any less a Woman/Man (yep I said Man, being TS is not just M2F) because you still have the birth defects, a prominent adams apple, baldness, shovels for hands. Hell no, just take a look at society, with the exception of twins, triplets etc, no two people are the same and some features are more dominent than others.

Some will try to say you are not TS because you have not had surgery, WRONG, there are some who for whatever reason CANNOT have surgery. Why should they be invalidated as Women/Men just because birth defects are still present. In fact, in the UK we are fortunate that even the government accept that surgery is not a definition of being TS.

Whilst there is, at present, a requirement for a Gender Specialist to confirm a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria, the only other requirement that they ask for is that you have lived the life of your "new" gender for two years and that you are not likely to return to your life in the "old" gender. If you can satisfy these two criteria you can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate which will allow you to get a new birth certificate with the correct gender.

... and then to answer my own question, Are you TS? Hell yes, but not because of some preconcieved opinion of "elitists" but because I am living the life I should have been born into and was doing so for many years before I had any "medical" intervention.

Of course this is only my opinion, it is as valid as yours, not anymore or any less. Take from this what you will

[AllieSF]

I totally agree with your statements. I have seen here over the years people with varied opinions try to limit who really are transwomen. I don't think I have ever seen that in the transmen section. You are what you are. After realizing or discovering the truth, what you do with it is your own choice. You also do not have to suffer through it all, though that is difficult to avoid, nor be ready to kill yourself to transition. I do not take the last scenario as what most truly mean, but do understand the need to caution wannabe TS's.

[Pat]

I'm in kind of a gray area. My gender, as I experience it, requires me to present female to be happy so I've had medical intervention to make my body look right to me. I live and work in that presentation 24/7 and am out to everyone. I've even changed the gender markers on my IDs. So I've "transitioned" medically, socially and legally. The only reason I don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum is that I'm non-binary. So I transitioned to live as authentically as I can as a third gender in this two-gender society. In my mind, I'm "non-binary TS" and so yes, I'm TS. But by the rules, I'm not.

If you can satisfy these two criteria you can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate which will allow you to get a new birth certificate with the correct gender.

Do you mind if I ask where you are? I'm in Massachusetts and here you can change your birth certificate with just an affidavit and a letter from an MD saying you've had "appropriate treatment" to amend the gender marker listed. (And, of course, a court order for name change if you're changing that too.) No "time in gender" requirement that I'm aware of, though your doctor might be unwilling to sign if you don't seem socially adapted.

[Nigella]

Do you mind if I ask where you are? I'm in Massachusetts and here you can change your birth certificate with just an affidavit and a letter from an MD saying you've had "appropriate treatment" to amend the gender marker listed. (And, of course, a court order for name change if you're changing that too.) No "time in gender" requirement that I'm aware of, though your doctor might be unwilling to sign if you don't seem socially adapted.

I am in the UK Pat. The path we need to follow is recognised throughout the UK and as there is only one "authority" it makes it simple. There is no requirement for "appropriate treatment" although that is one of the paths that can be used, in that case a GP can sign the relevant forms, stating which surgery has been completed.

[Mirya]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.

I went to a transgender support group meeting last night, and the vast majority of the attendees were CDs or NBs. As always, I enjoyed my time there and am happy to count many of them as friends, but there is still a difference between me (a TS) and them. Yes we are all transgender people, but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention. And if someone doesn't experience that level of distress, that's ok, maybe even better since you don't have to put yourself through the emotional and physical trauma of invasive surgery, but in my mind I'm just unable to regard a completely non-op woman as a TS.

Sorry, but that's my opinion and I hope you can respect my point of view even if you don't agree.

[Rianna Humble]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery.

Mirya, I respect both your right to hold and to express an opinion, but perhaps you could help me understand your point of view more clearly.

When I began my transition I was sure that I would have Gender Confirmation Surgery within 2 - 3 years at most. Unfortunately, I have diabetes and struggle to contain my weight which made the surgeons reluctant to consider me - did I cease to be transsexual at that point?

Since then I have developed hypothyroidism, hypertension and borderline pancreatitis meaning that the surgeons are now reluctant to offer me any surgery - even the cholecystectomy recommended to reduce my risk of developing cancer - is this when you consider that I ceased to be transsexual?

I began my transition over 7 years ago. Thanks to my previous standing in the community I was outed by the local press very early in my transition, that was picked up by the national and international press and went viral on the net (just google my name to see what I mean). Since then I have lived and operated unwillingly in the spotlight - even when I undertook a supposedly private attempt to be selected to stand for political office, it made it to the international press though not the rejection of the people who didn't want a TS candidate.

I have lived and worked as the woman I always knew myself to be since 1st July 2010 and very few people reject my status so by most people's definition I would be classed as transsexual.

My job entails supporting people with computer problems - most of them accept who I am. My work as a Trades Union representative involves me representing other people - no-one there has objected that I am a phoney.

In my unofficial work supporting abused women (most of whom are too scarred to trust a man), none has ever rejected me because I have not had the surgery that would make me whole.

I must admit that it saddens me to think that a member of this community does not accept me simply because I am unable to have any kind of surgical procedure.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Saddens me too.................................

[Pat]

Yes we are all transgender people, but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention.

I don't dispute that the above is your opinion, but I also don't think you're on solid ground trying to evaluate my level of dysphoria without knowing anything about me. My dysphoria-issues were things that don't need invasive measures. Electrolysis and hormones have been working for me. I basically needed to change my facial hair (electrolysis) and body hair and shape (hormones) to overcome my dysphoria areas. Sure, if I had the disposable income I'd love to have breast augmentation surgery but having my tiny hormone-developed breasts moved my feelings from dysphoria to mere dissatisfaction. I can live with that. It only matters to me to know they're there - I'm not doing this for anyone else. And same, really, for FFS -- if I had the money, sure, why not? I'd like to be prettier; have an upper lip; pull my hairline forward. But when I look in the mirror I see a face not too far removed from other older women. It's dissatisfaction, not dysphoria. I get that TS folks have much worse dysphoria than I and they have it about things that don't bother me. It doesn't invalidate me. I can live with the differences because I'm not a woman, I'm a transgender person and I feel I look like I should. (Naturally, I hope there'll be greater changes from the hormones -- I've only been on a year -- but if there aren't, I'm not going to go into a self-harm spiral.)

Nigella -- for readability, I hope you don't mind if I collect your questions into one big quote and address them in order. I don't know of a technique that would let me preserve your quotes of me in my quote of you, so they'll look a little disjoint.

Would you mind saying what medical interventions you have had?


I don't wish to assume, so would you mind saying what gender marker you now have?


So if you have completed the "full transition" what have you transitioned to? Does your legal system allow you to have a gender definition of Non Binary?


Is this third gender a legal recognised gender, I do know that there are moves afoot to allow people to declare themselves NB, but I'm not sure if there is anywhere that will accept this as a legal gender.

My medical interventions are non-invasive - electrolysis, hormones and I suppose voice training might or might not count but it was with a speech therapist attached to a local hospital. (Edit:Thinking on it, I suppose therapy should also count as a medical intervention, so that too.)

Because I have shifted my presentation to the female and because it really upsets me to be reminded of having pretended to be male in my past, I had my gender markers changed to Female. That's still not correct, but it's like the instructions they give on some standardized exams: "If none of the available answers seem correct, choose the one that seems most correct." So that's what I did. What have I transitioned to? Again, there isn't a word for it. I accept "transgender person" as good enough for the moment. Neither male nor female but still possessing a stable gender. Being that thing transformed me from a very unhappy male-impersonator to an extremely happy "transgender person." And I think there are more people like me out there, though probably not as many as there are TS folks.

I'm not aware of a place in the US that offers a gender marker of transgender or non-binary or anything of that nature. One of our western states recently passed a law allowing people to choose a marker of "X" on their driver's license but the definition of X is "gender unspecified" -- it does not mean anything else. So, no, my "third gender" is not a legally recognized gender in the same sense that male or female are. The Massachusetts transgender rights law (currently under attack) does recognize that transgender people encompass more than just transsexuals and they recognize that folks like me can attest "appropriate treatment," which may or may not include therapy, hormones and/or surgery, and move from one gender marker to another, though they're pretty clear that they expect your marker to remain stable after changing. As I told the examiner at the Vital Statistics bureau, I won't be back unless Mass decides to authorize a gender marker for trans -- in that case he can expect to see me the next morning.

[Marcelle]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.

I went to a transgender support group meeting last night, and the vast majority of the attendees were CDs or NBs. As always, I enjoyed my time there and am happy to count many of them as friends, but there is still a difference between me (a TS) and them. Yes we are all transgender people, but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention. And if someone doesn't experience that level of distress, that's ok, maybe even better since you don't have to put yourself through the emotional and physical trauma of invasive surgery, but in my mind I'm just unable to regard a completely non-op woman as a TS.

Sorry, but that's my opinion and I hope you can respect my point of view even if you don't agree.

Mirya,



Your opinion is yours which is one I doubt I will change. However, it is one I don’t agree with.

To be honest, I don’t consider myself trans “anything”. Legally I am female right down to my birth certificate. I am a woman now but then again, I always have been a woman. Unfortunately, I was just dealt a very bad hand in the genetic card game of life, and one I have actively chosen (for my own reasons) not to correct. Why you may ask? Simply put, my body and facial feature do not define me as a person and they sure as heck do not define me as a woman. Yup, the kid’s not pretty and she may be sporting the wrong plumbing but she is still all woman. However, if I have to wedge myself into a category in response to your posted reply . . . I am TS.

I understand your POV. You believe that unless you are going to change your sex (or facial features) then you are not transsexual. While I understand that stance in theory (trans = crossing over ergo transsexual is crossing over to another sex), IMO, you are applying a draconian interpretation to a term which I think we can all agree has evolved over time. Yes, a literal translation of the word would imply you want to change your sex and that was the basis of Benjamin’s levels back in the day. However, a more liberal approach would be that aligning your gender with who you are and living as that gender is by definition . . . crossing over to the other sex. IMO, you are getting hung up on the word “sex” as the defining characteristic for gender (i.e., vagina = woman / penis = man). If we follow this logic, you seem to imply that unless you change your sex, you can never truly be a man or a woman irrespective of you gender identity. As such, your very statement seems to invalidate those who identify as a woman or a man but do not undergo surgical procedure ergo, they are not truly men or women.

I know, you are going to say that you weren’t trying to invalidate me as a woman you just don’t see me as TS. However, when you start to differentiate between “them” and “us” within a category, IMHO, you are implying that the “them” are somehow fundamentally different and as such, don’t belong or have nothing of worth to add to the discussion. I am very saddened by this “us/them” mentality which seems to land in this section from time to time and one of the reasons why I stopped posting here. While this may not have been your intention and if I am wrong I apologize in advance . . . when you set yourself above others (I am TS because I have had surgical procedures and you are not TS because you have not done what I have done), you in essence invalidate my existence in the community. If I am not TS then what am I? A man who thinks he is a woman but can’t commit? The reason I find this stance maddening is that somehow you believe that by virtue of the fact that I have not undergone surgery, I haven’t shed enough blood or suffered enough to be considered a woman. Each day I leave the house, I wonder if this is the day someone is going to take exception to my existence and attack me (verbally or physically) because I am not pretty enough. I potentially blew up my entire life by coming out, it worked out in the end but there was a price. So yes, I do get defensive when someone implies I am not trans enough. Believe me, I have suffered and I have lost.

I will admit, your use of the term “non-op woman” did irritate me. Again, it may not have been your intention but it does imply that somehow a post-op woman is more of a woman than someone you refer to as a “non-op woman” (is that even a thing?). It boggles my mind that we feel obliged to invent categories within categories. Is it to justify some pecking order of who has more street cred? Does a post-op TS woman have more street cred than a pre-op TS or a “non-op woman? IMO this belief that one is more credible than the other as a woman because they have done/completed XY and Z and the other has not is very elitist.

My final grievance with your post was the assertion that only those who undergo surgery suffer from a severe dysphoria that those who do not undertake surgery can never fathom. I hate to be a naysayer, but dysphoria is dysphoria and when I experienced mine it brought me to a very dark place if you know what I mean (if you doubt my voracity on this point, PM me and I will provide the details). IMO, that assertion was very callous as it implies that somehow my dysphoria was a cakewalk , which I can assure was not the case.

So in the end, I don’t agree. If someone has taken the steps to live their life authentically as their target gender, they are as TS as anyone who undergoes surgical procedures. The only difference is level of comfort with one’s own body and how that defines them as a person. For some, surgery is a requirement and a potential lifesaving procedure and nobody here would argue that point. For others it is not required and I would expect the same level of consideration when deciding who is TS and who is not.

[LeaP]

Not everyone has dysphoria, at least as understood by most.

[jentay1367]

Do you mind if I ask where you are? I'm in Massachusetts and here you can change your birth certificate with just an affidavit and a letter from an MD saying you've had "appropriate treatment" to amend the gender marker listed. (And, of course, a court order for name change if you're changing that too.) No "time in gender" requirement that I'm aware of, though your doctor might be unwilling to sign if you don't seem socially adapted.

This would make my life so much simpler. I've set my GCS date foe PAI in Thailand. I have "his" Identification including Passport and Drivers License. I live in a State that is let's say, less than progressive. They will not give me a Drivers License in this State till I have the bottom surgery. It's a logistics nightmare. My intention is to "lose my license" and get a new one issued with my new picture since I look substantially different than the one I possess now. Then I will travel as a male to Thailand. 45 days later I will be coming home with girl parts. I will have a letter from PAI at that point. Then I can petition a Court here in hillbilly land to give me a new license in my name and get a valid passport and have my Birth Certificate changed. Oh to be in California or Massachusetts! The work I'm forced to do and the workarounds I have to endure to appease ignorant haters simply sucks!

[Megan G]

The only reason I don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum is that I'm non-binary.

Pat, no offence but you don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum or anywhere.... and that's ok....your NB.....

The definition of TS specifically says
: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

With that said your gender identity (according to you) is not male, not female... it's NB. So your identity is not opposite of your birth gender, and that right there makes you not TS......EVERYWHERE

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.

I would agree with that, but also note that if they cannot have surgery becuase of health reasons that would not make me see them any differently.

Again just my opinion, and not being elitist....

[Kelly DeWinter]

We are in an age of verbal gymnastics over many things these days. Our community has many members who take many years to change their Sex ot meet their gender identity. It seems to be a good idea to be sure before making any changes. Just be yourself and be happy.

[Dana44]

I think we all know that we cannot change sex biologically. Surgery and other factors weigh in and the end of the day, we are still men. Body dysphoria make some seek surgery and it seems to put a chip on your shoulder that you and only you can be transsexual. But some are rightfully in their proper places and say they are TS. IF you are full time and have legally changed your sex to be who you are, isn't that enough. Pat is a woman in mind body and spirit. She is our TS in the non binary area and we have accepted her. We even have a GG girl that has joined us. She has her own struggles. I think this post by Nigella is nice and I think we should have opinions but not tear anybody down with a different opinion because you are too opinionated.

[Megan G]

I think we all know that we cannot change sex biologically. Surgery and other factors weigh in and the end of the day, we are still men. .

I am going to keep my mouth shut on this one but I am EXTREMELY FAR from still being a man..... and will leave it at that....

Pat is a woman in mind body and spirit. She is our TS in the non binary area and we have accepted her.

Actually Pat is not a woman, *they* do not identify as female, or male.... Pat identifies as NB so that excludes *them* from being a woman in their "Mind body or Soul".... and Pat, when you read this the *they* & *Them* is to attempt to use the proper pronouns.....

[jentay1367]

Regardless of any of our self identification tags, we're all "sisters" and share the struggle of making ourselves understood by the "muggles". Threads like these are just infighting and parsing words. Kind of a futile and fruitless endeavor.

[Pat]

i support nb people completely...my dearest friend struggles with this... but i also have to say simply as a matter of form..

coming to ts forum and saying the term is an "artifact"
and in another post saying you are non binary TS...

the first sounds kind of sneaky nasty(coming from a person that uses the new up and coming trend NONBINARY!!)
and the second sounds kind of incoherent given the other statement..

Kaitlyn, sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to offend. What I was trying to say is that the "sex" in transsexual was an artifact of the times the term was coined. It was later that we understood that gender and sex were different.

She is our TS in the non binary area and we have accepted her.

Actually Pat is not a woman, *they* do not identify as female, or male.... Pat identifies as NB so that excludes *them* from being a woman in their "Mind body or Soul".... and Pat, when you read this the *they* & *Them* is to attempt to use the proper pronouns.....

First, Dana -- Thank-you. The acceptance is more important than the pronoun.

Megan -- And thank you for the pronouns. Yes, nonbinary folks do not identify as women or men, which makes the whole pronoun thing difficult for everyone around them. I feel bad about it but it's all still in flux. I pretty much accept any pronoun that's used with respect, though I prefer "they." If "they" is difficult, I prefer "she" to "he" but I try not to let such things distract.

And to all, I didn't really come into your forum to cause trouble. The question was asked, "Are you TS?" and I felt it was fair to chime in to say that yes (in my mind) I am; I have many commonalities with you including full-time presentation in real life, irreversible physical changes and legal document changes. The place I fail the classic test is that I'm not a woman. (Admittedly, not a small difference.) Because my understanding of the term TS was gender-centric I viewed the completion of a full transition away from a false cis-male identity to a true non-binary one was comparable to a full transition from a false cis-male identity to a true transgender woman.

It's been an interesting discussion and I hope it has been interesting to everyone and not a problem. Part of the reason I floated the idea of a non-binary TS -- whether it ever catches on or not -- was that I have immense respect for the strength and commitment that TS people show. Most of my role-models are TS. So I hope you understand my posts are submitted with pure intentions.

[LeaP]

Terms and definitions help for a while. You need to be able to articulate a concept to grasp it, to question yourself against it. Eventually the essence of what you are comes home and then the terms don't matter so much - as least as applied to yourself. You have to deal with the terminology to help others, however. Their specific usage doesn't matter as much as your understanding of what they're trying to convey.

[Dana44]

I had my ears laser done. Still it did not get rid of all the hair. I am going to start electrolysis as I have a lot of white hair;. . But I am plucking the hair out of my ears and tried a few on my face also. Looks like that works. But that would take a long time. In the old days like in France they used to pluck the hair from their body.

[Mirya]

I think we should have opinions but not tear anybody down with a different opinion because you are too opinionated.

...the end of the day, we are still men.

okay... lol

[Nikki.]

I think that was a Devo song (i'm dating myself )

[Rianna Humble]

Surgery and other factors weigh in and the end of the day, we are still men.

Unless you are using the royal "we" that statement is insulting when used in the Transsexual Forum.

People don't transition because they are men born with a man's body. They transition either because they are women born with an apparently male body or because they are men born with an apparently female body.

Your espoused theory smacks of the rhetoric of Trans Exclusionary RadFems - people who set out to do harm to Trans people or to put them in harm's way. That I have suffered at the hands of TERFs is a matter of public record. This is why I can never support such an egregious slur.

Mirya,

It seems that your position is evolving from

I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both,

towards

I will always, always respect and regard a female-identified person as a woman, regardless of physical traits.[/i] However, I'm unable to see them as a transsexual because the very word itself denotes someone who is sexually (i.e. anatomically) female.

Which is even more hardline since you now exclude anyone who has only had FFS because the face is not a sexual organ.

Incidentally, where do either of your positions leave the transmen?

Both Dana and Myria, as Voltaire never said, I disagree with your opinion(s), but I will defend to the death your right to express it(them).

[Pat]

There is no requirement for "appropriate treatment" although that is one of the paths that can be used, in that case a GP can sign the relevant forms, stating which surgery has been completed.

Ah. I wasn't clear, sorry. "Appropriate treatment" under our rules could be as simple as seeing a gender counselor, if that's all you as a person need. Or it could go to full confirmation surgery -- that's up to the MD who writes the letter. It mirrors the WPATH V7 guidance that a transition is specific to the individual and can be non-binary in nature.

Pat, no offence but you don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum or anywhere.... and that's ok....your NB.....

The definition of TS specifically says
: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

With that said your gender identity (according to you) is not male, not female... it's NB. So your identity is not opposite of your birth gender, and that right there makes you not TS......EVERYWHERE

No offense taken. I don't expect my view to resonate here right away. But I'm thinking that the biggest factor of a binary TS's (humor me for a moment) transition isn't the surgery -- as already mentioned, there may be reasons why a given person can't get that. Those reasons don't invalidate the individual. The biggest factor, to me, is the complete life change, replacing the false gender with the correct one in unambiguous and pretty much irreversible steps. So to me I transitioned to my correct gender which is wholly different than the one assigned me at birth.The fact that in our culture that gender has no name at the moment is a clerical detail.

[Teresa]

Nigella,
I'm heading to this situation myself in the next few months, when I separate from my wife and move into my home. I intend to dress as much as possible, I'm hoping it will finally provide me with the answers I've been asking for so long, as you remark, " Am I TS ?"

I know I'm living with GD and AGP, but up to now I haven't been able to think clearly because of my DADT situation.

Some reading this will probably say if you don't feel the deep need you're not TS , as you say you need to live the life .

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Nigella,
I'm heading to this situation myself in the next few months, when I separate from my wife and move into my home. I intend to dress as much as possible, I'm hoping it will finally provide me with the answers I've been asking for so long, as you remark, " Am I TS ?"

I know I'm living with GD and AGP, but up to now I haven't been able to think clearly because of my DADT situation.

Some reading this will probably say if you don't feel the deep need you're not TS , as you say you need to live the life .

This was my plan

After separating and getting the freedom to "Dress" my GD exploded
.....taking off my clothes became an exercise in shame and sadness...i was transitioning within 2 years..