How young is too young?

[Tracy Irving]

Is The American College of Pediatrics just another hate group or do they have something here?

Below is a link to an article on their findings:

http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-sp...harms-children

[Krisi]

Anyone who doesn't agree with you is not a "hate group". In the field of medicine, I have to defer to those with more education, experience and resources than me.

I would consider that they probably know what they are talking about.

[Pat]

They don't have findings, they have opinions. Their opinions do not use current science. Their use of terminology is flawed and imprecise.

A quick summary of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ..._Pediatricians

[Dana44]

That is very flawed and is not what the DSM says at all in fact they were upset that they misused their data. By golly, why do people want to go back to the way it was. These are dangerous people and I would not send a kid to them. I would vett it out first. ,

[JenniferMBlack]

Although they are knuckle staggers there is some valid points in that article. I think the problem is poeple are to quick to say their child is the wrong sex these days. If a boy likes "girl" things he needs to be a girl. An 11 year old can male other decisions for themselves bit can decide if they should become the opposite sex? I know ultimately it is the parent. bit so many are giving kids what they want these days. I am not saying there isn't any true trans or they don't know at 11 but there has been a lot more lately then ever before.

[Lana Mae]

Pat's link to Wikipedia says it all! Hugs Lana Mae

[Tracii G]

See how liberalism tags everything as a hate group if they don't agree with it.
Personally I think parents need to let their kids grow up and make their own choices not assume their child is trans just because they think they show signs.
There are a lot of parents these days that have no business being parents.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Anyone who doesn't agree with you is not a "hate group". In the field of medicine, I have to defer to those with more education, experience and resources than me.

I would consider that they probably know what they are talking about.

Said group is the American College of Pediatrics, a bunch of socially conservative pediatricings, numbering about 500.

The American "Academy" of Pediatrics is the primary group for pediatricians, they number about 64000.

They're basically a bunch of Evangelical Pediatricians going around saying "The gay and the trans are bad because...Bible"

And the SPLC does list them as a hate group. If you go around saying "The gays shouldn't adopt and the Trans is evil" without any scientific evidence to back it up..well I think they might qualify.

See how liberalism tags everything as a hate group if they don't agree with it.

Yeah, them pesky liberals who have been fighting for GLBTQ folk for decades and are the reason WHY you can DO the thing you DO openly. While certain other people were actively fighting against them.
Look, I know in certain ways you still culturally identify with the group that fought against GLBT people, so maybe you should think before you go around complaining about "liberalism" or "millenials" or "SJW's".
Because without THEM, your life would be rather different don't you think.

Personally I think parents need to let their kids grow up and make their own choices not assume their child is trans just because they think they show signs.

Nobody is advocating anything permanent in regards to young transfolk, we are suggesting taking cues FROM the young transperson and giving them room to work things out. If that means letting young people explore earlier, thats a good thing. And I would suggest not saying things like you did in the TS section.

Veronica

[GracieRose]

I've given this a lot of thought over the past 60 years (and I suspect that most people on this forum have also).
I believe that just as some people are too quick to put their child into therapy to make them 'normal', others are too quick to start talking to their child about a sex change. The child may be better served by helping them figure out where they are / want to be on the gender spectrum. Both of these extremes seem to be focused too much on gender as a binary rather than a spectrum.
Any operation or medication imposes some risk to the person. However, the risks associated with any intervention needs to be weighed against the risks associated with doing nothing.

[Laura912]

Folks, please pay attention to the above where the difference between the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American College of Pediatrics is explained. The former is the professional group. The latter, are the ones with an anti LBGT prejudice. Please do not let the ACP drag the discussion to their level.

[Tracii G]

Veronica I was talking about parents letting kids transition during pre teen life.
We have all seen the articles where parents push transition too early.
And I will mention conservatives aren't all against the LGBT, you have been fed that by the left and its just not factual.
I have been part of the gay rights /LGBT movement for a long time so please don't school me about "if it weren't for them" because I have been out there doing that work you speak of way before SJW's became the hot new thing to be.
I have a right to complain about SJW's and liberals because they are more damaging to the cause of gay/trans issues.
You may ask how so? Just watch them on TV or on you tube they make idiots out of themselves by screaming and acting like babies.
Yelling and acting foolish is not helping.
The left has co opted the cause and they are using it for their own gain politically.
Trans and gay issues should not be a political thing but a human rights thing.

Oh and P.S. I have been in the TS section and FYI I am not impressed at all with the back biting and name calling that goes on there so don't worry its not a part of the forum I want to participate in.

[Helen_Highwater]

In the article this point is made;

No one is born with a gender. Everyone is born with a biological sex. Gender (an awareness and sense of oneself as male or female) is a sociological and psychological concept; not an objective biological one.

This is the issue they fail to grasp. I would say for nearly all those who the article comments upon initially see themselves of belonging to the opposite gender. As they say, "(an awareness and sense of oneself as male or female" Such is that sense that while at first presenting as someone of the opposite gender fulfills that need, such is the association that transitioning completes the process.

We all understand the social pressures, stigma, that to some extent still exist for anyone who presents as a member of the opposite sex. By transitioning the hope is that they will look more like a member of their desired gender and blend into normal society.

Everyone knows this isn't an easy path to tread. That doesn't mean for some it's their chosen one.

As for things like suicide rates. Surely this is a measure of the social isolation many trans people have felt in years gone by. As hopefully society becomes more accepting then these tragic cases will lessen.

[Rachael Leigh]

Yes this is a very conservative group that gets a lot of press for those who have an anti Trans agenda. I am friends with a mom who's son is a trans male, born as a girl he showed signs of tell his mom I'm a boy at age 3, his mom tried to help
with encouraging him that it's ok to be a tomboy, but he persisted through a couple more years.
So they sought out help and indeed he was diagnosed as a trans f to M.
He had no outside influence and in fact the parents tried to ignore it and go with it but he persisted and began to have
trouble in school as well
Being truly transgender is real and to say these parents are abusing them is just wrong
Her son is now a happy 11 year old and thriving in school

There are a lot of stories much like hers.

[Pat]

I think 100% of the people here would agree that children who are not transgender should NOT be allowed, or encouraged, to transition. But it's worth keeping in mind that you can't go down to CVS and get a bottle of Children's-strength Puberty Blockers and start feeding them to your kid. These kids are under medical supervision, the hormones are prescribed and monitored. The supervising physicians, not SJW parents, have the task of identifying if the child is a candidate for treatment as well as deciding, at the appropriate age, if the child should move on to actual transition.

The spectre of parents pushing kids into transition is a propaganda move.

Folks, please pay attention to the above where the difference between the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American College of Pediatrics is explained.

And it's worth noting that they specifically named themselves to encourage that confusion. Note that they are NOT a college of Pediatrics, which would be expected to do research and publish in peer-reviewed journals. They are a college of Pediatricians. And darn few of them are actual pediatricians or even hold medical credentials.

[Tracii G]

Pat there are cases where transgender/transexual couples do push the transition thing but its a very small number I'm sure.
Its not a propaganda move because I have seen it first hand so please don't go there.
Its papers like this by people with a letterhead or a website claiming to be experts when they are just a group that doesn't do the research.
That to me says "opinion" and not fact.
They are nothing more than a group with a political agenda to push.

[Teresa]

Tracy,
All this raises a dilemma, unless you have GD we are never too sure what it all means.

If my parents knew about my CDing and they lived in the society as it is now would they gave dragged me off to cousellors , and what would the outcome have been ? Would my life have been any happier, would I have got married and had two great children and gone on to be a proud grandfather ? On the other side I might have been in semi transition for much of my life , never taking risks in life playing so safe that I didn't really have a life at all ? OK that has caught up with me now, but I'm sure I'll still look back with less regrets living the life I have, it's better to have a life of memories than a life of regrets.

These groups must step back and think about the implications of their actions, the UK society is going too far down this road to appease tiny minority groups, sometimes to be an active member of society , giving as well as taking takes some backbone we can't let every minority group totally ruin all our social structure it isn't in every ones interest .

[suzanne]

This link is an excellent example of a staunchly conservative, resistant parent who finds she has a transgender daughter instead of a son.

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a43702

I have never been in that mother's situation. But this article clearly shows that gender reassignment is in no way driven by parents. They are only acting in a way that helps their child's peace of mind. The question for them becomes frighteningly stark: Would you rather have a healthy transdaughter or a dead son who killed himself giving no indication of why he did It?

The odd thing about the document cited by the OP is that it objectively states that "gender is a social construct" and then goes on to claim that it is appropriate to force a child to accept the side of that construct that he/she clearly finds unacceptable. I find it amazing how supposedly objective professionals make contorted arguments to assert personal opinions that are not supported by peer reviewed evidence based studies, but it happens everywhere. (Climate change comes to mind.) But I don't call it hate. I call it willful ignorance spawned by vested interest.

[Pat]

Suzanne -- great article, thanks! I think I had heard about her but never read her first-person account.

The "gender is a social construct" narrative ignores the growing body of (peer-reviewed) evidence that gender has a biological component which appears to be inborn and immutable. So while gender clearly has a social component, its expression is both nature AND nurture at work. I think that qualifies them for the "willful ignorance" award (or at least a participation trophy. )

[mechamoose]

At age 8, my grandson wanted to be a princess for Halloween.

Kids notice the differences between 'males' and 'females' well before that. Kids seek validation, approval, and 'permission'. To him, wearing a princess costume is an entirely innocent thing. They see something that they identify with and want to emulate.

I cannot imagine NOT validating what a miniature, developing person thinks of in their cartoon infused mind as a hero(ine). I cannot imagine telling them that they are wrong for wanting to be like that strong figure they have empathy with.

Unless it is a brute. But an 8 year old (thankfully) has no idea who Attila the Hun, Vlad the Impaler, or Adolph Hitler is.

You, I, and *we* help shape these miniature humans. Do a good job, they are the ones who will be in control when we are old and feeble.

<3

- MM

[Sometimes Steffi]

A well-known hate group, with a name similar to the mainstream pediatrician professional association designed to confuse truth with opinion. I'm not even sure if they're really medical doctors.

Take everything they say with a giant salt shaker,

See post #8 above.

[Judy-Somthing]

I remember when I was about 12 I thought I wanted to be a women and would dress quite often, Let's face it, children shouldn't be making any life changing decisions.
I remember when at 17 my girlfriend of two years broke up with me, I was depressed for close to a year and thought I would never be happy again!

[mechamoose]

Pardon me, but I'm going to disagree with you Judy.

Children make life changing decisions every day. They may not see the impact of those decisions for 20 or so years, but what they see and react to and what WE see and react to will affect them for the rest of their lives.

Sure, it may be a small thing today, but carry those impressions and decisions forward?

The only 'small' action is one that you have not thought of the repercussions for. A stone in a pond.

- MM

[docrobbysherry]

Most of this conversation is out of my experience. However, I think u mite want to re state this comment, Tracii. Considering that humans rites have been political issues since the dawn of man!

-----------------------Trans and gay issues should not be a political thing but a human rights thing.-----------

[ellbee]

How young is too young?

Age is just a number.

But in my opinion, I believe one is playing with fire when you start talking about pre-puberty stuff. And this is definitely unchartered waters... Gonna take a few consecutive lifespans to see the true effect of it all, at the end of the day. Do we want to go down this road? I believe we're already well on the way, with pretty much no turning back now. I do feel for those inadvertently caught in the cross-fire.

Kids just need to be kids, IMO. Is that too much to ask of adults?


Regarding agendas? Many people/groups of all persuasions have them -- especially if their livelihood depends on it.


Finally, this whole left/right thing? Try not to buy into it too much, please. It's simply to keep us fighting amongst ourselves -- instead of our true enemies of this earth.

[mechamoose]

"I believe one is playing with fire when you start talking about pre-puberty stuff. "

There is a difference between guiding and steering. If you are trying to mold someone, then you are wrong. If you SEE something and you are trying to be a guide, that is different.

Who else is someone in their early years going to look to? You can be a friendly voice without being invasive. Encouraging someone to be themselves is never wrong.

- MM