LGBT Safe Space Signage in my Office

[Pat]

Pat, my questions 1 and 2 are related. That is, intolerance (especially at a company with a tolerance policy) won't end by running from it, but by confronting it. It doesn't make sense that intolerance isn't important enough to report to HR, but important enough to create a safe space.

I get that questions 1 and 2 were related. Gender issues aren't the only issues for which safe spaces exist -- as a little thought experiment, let's recast the questions with domestic violence as the issue. Would you think it's reasonable to ask:

1) If domestic violence is encountered in a jurisdiction with laws that forbid it, shouldn't you go to the police instead of withdrawing to a safe space?
2) Are safe space signs sending an unintentional message that it's OK to be commit domestic violence, just not here?

If you think those are reasonble, then the conversation is over. If you think they're not reasonable map them back onto the issue of providing safe spaces to LGBT folks and ask if they really just amount to blaming the victim for being victimized. That's how it read to me.

#3: I read on Wiki about a safe space with cookies, coloring books, bubbles, pillows, pictures of puppies, and other things to calm those inside. And so I asked a simple question to get a simple answer (yes, no, maybe, sometimes...).

If yours was a sincere question about adults in a corporate environment being comforted with cookies and coloring books then I'm sorry I mistook your simple naivete as a disingenuous swipe at the people involved.

[Tracii G]

Safe places at work seems like its only for a certain segment of the work force how is that fair for anyone?
Being a member of the LGBT community I find it repugnant to demand an employer to offer a safe space to LGBT people only.
If the company really had rules and followed the discrimination laws set forth by the government safe spaces wouldn't be needed.
It would be handled thru HR as it should be.
OK if a person has a job isn't going to a safe space going to take them off their job and reduce production?
Not to mention there would always be those 3 or 4 employees that would abuse the silly safe space idea to get out of working.
Basically its no more than coddling and treating adults like children.

[Ressie]

I believe the safe space concept originated in universities. I also believe it hinders young students from learning how to deal with the real world.

[Tracii G]

Essentially it is Ressie.
I noticed it years ago with preteen sports like base ball and soccer here in the states. No matter if you won or lost you got a trophy for participating.
Baseball games where they didn't keep score so the losing team didn't feel bad for losing.
To me thats not fair for the kids they don't learn somebody wins somebody loses thats how it all works.
Case in point today we have antifa who grew up with this culture where they didn't like how and election turned out so now they are throwing a temper tantrum.
Just shows how that liberal child rearing Dr Spock mentality hasn't worked out too well.

[NicoleScott]

Pat, I'm all for safe spaces for people (kids and adults) to go to escape violence and threats. So no, violence outside of safe spaces is not OK. By the way, I never said it was, but asked if some would perceive it was OK, and I think they do.
I'm not a fan of safe spaces created to coddle adults whose feelings are hurt because they hear name-calling, ideas that differ from their own, or election results they don't like, such as the one referred to in the Wiki entry (cookies, coloring books, etc.)
Our military didn't go overseas in WWII to build more and better bomb shelters, but to stop those dropping the bombs. Bomb shelters don't legitimize the bombing, except in the minds of the bombers. Withdrawing to safe spaces to escape intolerance doesn't end the intolerance, but HR with management's backing can.

[Ineke Vashon]

Over 200 years we never needed or had safe spaces now all of a sudden we do why is that?

Because the world has changed, and not for the better. In the fifties I hitchhiked throughout Europe. I saw young females hitch hiking. We'd get together in youth hostels to discuss our adventures. No one reported problems. Just try that today.

Ineke
ps: Julie - you are a gem. Welcome to this forum.

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So what's a "safe place?" It can be lots of places, not only in our little neck o' the woods. Look at Houston - safe places are those where unfortunate people were taken. Or any secure locale to go to when severe weather threatens. Those are safe places.

In my RV world, a safe place is a campground where there is at least a campground host. Usually, they are in phone or radio contact with rangers or other authorities. That, to me, is a safe place. Because of a long standing anxiety problem I will not stay overnight in an empty campground without camp host or at least several other RVs.

That's just me, fallible human - I prefer, and look for, a safe place.

Ineke

ps: I had intended to have two separate posts. Somehow, they came out as one. That's why it appears I signed twice. Whatever.

[Tracii G]

Ineke the world has changed in some respects there in lies the problem.
Coddling adults, sheltering kids form the fact they don't always win and that they aren't special to everybody.
Parents don't seem to teach their kids to be self sufficient these days by letting them live at home even thru adulthood and they stay a perpetual child.
I was out on my own at 17 fending for myself and if something had to be done I had to do it.
I don't doubt we have a handful or perpetual kids on this site still living with their parents and in their 30's.

[Julie Slowinski]

Let me begin by apologizing to Nicole. I didn't actually mean that comment about your makeup (I think you are a beautiful expression of femininity), but I did know that it would hurt. Thought it might be a good exercise to break down some of the straight privilege that many of us tend to take advantage of, especially those of us that are mostly in the closet (myself included). The point is that all ridicule hurts and we should do all that we can to prevent vulnerable people from having to suffer it. Who are these vulnerable people you might ask? Nobody knows, but their out among us and we should have at least a little concern for their feelings. So, a suggestion that these people (adults) are acting like or should be treated like spoiled children is just plain insulting and definitely going in the wrong direction. Nicole, I see your explanation of how I might have misinterpreted your question, but clearly I was not the only one to take it that way.

Now I'm sure that many of you are thinking that I'm acting like the thought police. I absolutely do not subscribe to such notions. Anyone is free to say anything they want. But, others also have the right to respond, in kind. Part of the point of that sign is to let people know where I stand and that they should expect to hear my views if they bring up the subject. The other part, which is likely more important, is to let members of the LGBT community know that I'm on their side (i.e. an ally) and if they ever need a sympathetic ear I will be available to them.

Let me now give a crack at Nicole's questions:
"1) If intolerance is encountered at a company with a stated policy towards tolerance, shouldn't you go to HR instead of withdrawing to a safe space?"

I'm guessing you've heard of a corporate mission statement - some bullshit dreamed up by the new CEO, which makes no difference unless they are able to change the culture of the people working at the company. This is kind of the same thing - a stated policy makes no difference if the people working there are not on board with that policy. I'm not sure what HR is supposed to do about it. My experience with HR is more about filling out forms, than being some sort of police force. Even if HR were to issue some sort of reprimand, tattling on bullies never has the desired effect and will usually result in a cloaked retaliation. It seems to me that a better approach is to help create an internal culture of tolerance (one that heads of the ridicule in the first place). The more people who are visibly on board with this culture the better. And, in the event that someone is hurt by a thoughtless comment, be the friend that can help someone fight their internal self-loathing. If you've made it to this site, I'm guessing you are particularly familiar with this issue. To deal with this problem I've built internal defenses that help me fight that self loathing, while maintaining my self esteem. I'm guessing that most of the members here have done the same. Having such skills makes us particularly well equipped to be an ally.

"2) Are safe space signs sending an unintentional message that it's OK to be intolerant, just not here?"

As I said above, I believe that people are free to say and do whatever they want. The point of the sign is to indicate that when I exercise my free rights in response, they should have a pretty good idea of what that response is going to be. How someone uses that information about me is up to them.

I'd like to end this post by saying that I think that this is a really good discussion. It's helped me clarify my goals and intentions with this silly little sign. Also, I'm hoping there are no hard feelings. I know I can get passionate at times, but please understand that I'm more interested in the vigorous discussion than anything personal. Actually, one of the main reasons I joined CD.com is to participate in such discussions.

������ Julie

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Nicole she said its not about the sign is about the person behind the sign whatever that means.
I have to wonder is the sign there to make you feel better about yourself Julie?
Letting it be known you are pro active and down for the LGBT struggle?
The liberal logic seems that "feeling" is more important than actually physically helping someone.
Over 200 years we never needed or had safe spaces now all of a sudden we do why is that?

Hi Tracii, That's an interesting thought. My answer is yes ... the sign does make me feel better about myself. But, doing the right thing always makes me feel that way, especially if it's hard and there's some risk involved. Helping someone with their feelings is a physical act. However, if you're looking for something more physical I would like to believe that I would jump in if I was ever wittiness to an assault, especially if the victim was from the LGBT community and regardless of what I'm wearing. If I'm gonna talk the talk, then I know that I'll need to walk the walk.

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I'm beginning to understand what these "safe places" are all about. It's a place bordered by imaginary lines where fragile people can feel good about themselves while throwing barbs at others w/o consequence.
Is that about it?

Supportive? Yes! Fragile? No!

It must be my Chicago upbringing, but I'm always ready to stand up for my people, especially those that are vulnerable. I'm of the opinion that there are no actions without consequences.

[Pat]

Over 200 years we never needed or had safe spaces now all of a sudden we do why is that?

Not sure who "we" is in that, but if it means humanity then I'd give counter-examples: first century Rome, where people chalked fish symbols on their homes to indicate they were a place those new-fangled Christians could gather and be themselves without fear. Wouldn't we call that a safe space nowadays? The homes and taverns of Ireland where the Gaelic language was kept alive when the British outlawed it -- weren't those safe spaces? Wasn't the Underground Railroad in fact a series of safe spaces that slaves escaping to the North could use? And in more modern times, aren't gay bars safe spaces? I'd say throughout history we have always carved out safe spaces for minorities who were oppressed in some way.

Safe places at work seems like its only for a certain segment of the work force how is that fair for anyone?
Being a member of the LGBT community I find it repugnant to demand an employer to offer a safe space to LGBT people only.

It's an interesting stance to take. It seems to be saying that LGBT folks should not have safe spaces unless we also establish safe spaces for Neo-nazis, KKK, etc. If that's the change you want to see in the world, then by all means step up, like Julie did, and work for it. Traditionally, companies do tend to only offer safe spaces to people who are in some way aligned with their cultural objectives, so you're right -- it's not "safe spaces for all" but personally I couldn't really get behind that.

I noticed it years ago with preteen sports like base ball and soccer here in the states. No matter if you won or lost you got a trophy for participating.
Baseball games where they didn't keep score so the losing team didn't feel bad for losing.
To me thats not fair for the kids they don't learn somebody wins somebody loses thats how it all works.

Getting a little too far off-topic even for me, but I'll just note that the rules weren't changed by the kids, they were changed by the adults who had lived through a system like the one you endorse.

[Julie Slowinski]

Our military didn't go overseas in WWII to build more and better bomb shelters, but to stop those dropping the bombs.

I think we are getting to a bit of a consensus here. The real objective is to stop the bombs. In Pat's historical examples (wonderful by the way), there was a need for safe spaces until there got to be so many of them that just about everywhere was safe. Tracii - isn't that the world you're looking for? The world we're all looking for - to wear whatever you want wherever you want? And, to be able to do so without being judged or the threat of violence.

It starts by creating islands. Islands that multiply, merge and grow until the unsafe places are the islands, which will eventually disappear.

So, I go back to my original challenge. Please, go create your own island. The more safe islands we have, the closer we'll be to not needing them any more!!!

[NicoleScott]

Julie, no apology necessary, but thanks. I have a pretty thick skin regarding my transformation preferences. I like over-the-top everything, including makeup. It pleases me, some others like it, and many others don't.
Company policies (of all kinds) are just words on paper unless enforced by HR and management and fully backed by upper management. Some companies take it seriously and some don't. I can understand why some people don't bother reporting issues to HR, but...it may be important later on to document that at least you tried.
As I said in my last post, I'm for spaces to keep people safe, but not so-called safe spaces which are just enclaves where expressions of differing ideologies are unwelcome.

[michelle64]

My safe space is what i carry in my purse...i feel safe wherever i go....i dont drink or do bars/clubs..so that right there eliminates 99% of the riff raff...a sign does not make one safe..sorry not really on board with this..there really should be a discussion on that item than can make you safe..but its such a cat fight here i can understand the reason not to discuss...

[Tracii G]

Pat why is it you have to make the Neo nazi and KKK remarks when thats not the point I was trying to get across.

[Kayliedaskope]

Just me (liberal, by the way), but I never had anything like a safe space when I was growing up, and not even now. I learned right from wrong, respect for others, and to stand for the things that were right. I've taken my share of hard knocks ... I think we all have been there before. In general i'm a peaceful person and simply want to live my life that way, but I'm also not above giving someone a well-deserved attitude adjustment, either.

Sorry, I guess I'm off topic a bit ....I think that being able to take a stand for what you believe in is never a bad thing.

[Tracii G]

Exactly right Kaylie.
Its like no one has the courage or "stones" to stand up for themselves and they have to run and hide in a safe space.
I'll bet I get called queer or fag 10 times a week and it doesn't make me want to scream and cry that I have been made fun of and need a safe space.

[Pat]

Pat why is it you have to make the Neo nazi and KKK remarks when thats not the point I was trying to get across.

Because that's how I read your words. You seemed to be saying that it's not fair to have safe spaces for one group if there weren't safe spaces for all groups. There are some pretty repugnant groups out there and a number that I'm perfectly OK with not granting a safe space to.

This started with Julie taking some training and putting up a sign in her office for the very noble purpose of supporting people whose shot at getting civil rights is currently ongoing. I love her vision of islands of support joining up into full social support -- that's exactly how I saw racial integration happen, "women's lib" happen and gay rights happen. It always starts small. It always gets push-back from reactionaries who don't see any reason why we should change "the way it's always been" (even if it hasn't actually always been that way.) So in some respects, this conversation is pre-ordained. I'm just a little surprised we have to have it here.

[Tracii G]

I'm done.

[Julie Slowinski]

Well that was fun!!! No joke, I really enjoyed the vigorous discussion and look forward others in the future. Now, if you'll excuse me, I feel a hair ball coming up.

[AllieSF]

Watchout for those hair balls. My cat gets them all the time in her safe place at my home (no signs needed just yet). Unfortunately, what I really need is a "Designated Place" for those hair balls so that I won't step on them in the dark!

[Ressie]

How about a safe space for Trump supporters that are also TG? We get hate from both sides.

Gay bars are safe? Not against terrorist attacks as we've seen in Florida. Ain't no guarantees on this planet.

[Krisi]

................ Over 200 years we never needed or had safe spaces now all of a sudden we do why is that?

Because we now have a generation of people who have been protected from all harm by their parents and the government. They have no idea how to protect or stand up for themselves.

[AllieSF]

With this thread is about a trans person putting that sign in her office giving all her good and viable reasons to why more than once in this thread, and with all those LGBT kids growing up with unaccepting parents and schoolmates and society as a whole with no Governmental protections, please tell me Krisi, how can you say that they were over protected by anyone?? With an over 40% suicide rate among trans people and regular hate crime killing of them here in the USA and other places, they are killing themselves because they were over protected? Please tell me what idyllic and all accepting place that you live where one can be themselves with no need for protection.

[Tracii G]

Allie you totally missed the point of what Krisi said.

[Julie Slowinski]

Hi Tracii, It seems to me that Allie understood the point perfectly.

Thanks Allie, you are dead on - in many cases it can be a matter of life and death. While the statistics focus on modern times, I'm quite confident the problem was much worse in the 'good old days', but wildly underreported due to more people being so deeply in the closet.

Hi Krisi, I think we should think less about the hypothetical spoiled youth, and focus on what WE can do to improve things. Maybe you should walk the walk of your talk and stand up for yourself and your community. If we cannot stand up for our own community, then how the hell can we expect anyone else to stand up for us?

It's really not that complicated - just try to help people that have the same problems that you have/had. Is it really asking too much to be kind and take under your wing folks that are in need of help? I would think it would be the least we could do.

💋💋💋 Julie

[GretchenJ]

A lot of passionate feelings on this subject, many are fueled imo from toeing the political stance of what "safe spaces " are - to some it's an equivalent to coddling, participation trophies, that toughening up our kids make them ready for the real world, and that we are doing them any favors by softening up.

My thoughts are twofold:

I am against some of the "safe spaces" on some college campuses, because in many of these cases , there are just semi-private clubs, that exclude others. A true safe space in one that everyone is safe and included, where free thoughts are accepted by all, not just the ones where the safe space organizers believe in. To me, that just increases the political and social divide even further.

But as to the sign, that the OP is referring to, I see absolutely nothing wrong with. A lot of you have talked about encountering violence in your past, as you were out and about being your authentic self. When I went out for the the first time, I remember staying in my car for the crowd to dissipate, checking the store window to check to see if I could enter without repercussion. We have for the most part that gay bars and clubs will always welcome us, but for the other neighborhood, it's always been hit or miss.

We now have bakeries that may or may not make a cake for you, the only way to know is to enter, ask, and possibly take your lumps.

It would be comforting to be able to walk into an establishment, be it a bar, club, restaurant, store knowing that you can enter and be treated fairly without the chance of getting the snot getting kicked out of you. To some, this may be considered a rite of passage, but to me, it's something I wish to avoid. In these places, there is a sign, an invisible one, similar to the "No Colored People Allowed" , and has the same effects for those who tempt fate.

its a shame that these signs are needed as well, hopefully over time, it may become not needed in the future.