Sorry but this might upset a few or put the cat amongst the pigeons...etc etc.
Personally being a cross dresser from the UK I truly feel that the best we can ever hope for is being tolerated,but as far as being accepted, not a chance.
Please do not think I am bitter or have a axe to grind because that is not the case, I just think people who think we will be or are accepted are a bit hopeful.
I think it depends on where you live and who you associate with and what your definitions are of those two words. If you are saying accepted or tolerated everywhere, then I agree. But if you are saying that we can be accepted in certain areas, I believe we can achieve that but unlikely in my lifetime, I'm old.
Sara is right. It depends and where you are and who you are with. At my therapist I am completely accepted and supported by her and her staff. Other places I would not dare go. If tolerance is the best we get some places I'm okay with that.
Hmm, based on what I've read in these forums over the years, there are people out there who definitely accept. Having said that, I also suspect that tolerance is more common than acceptance.
Karen
I think it is fairly evident what the answer may be if you look around. I've stated it numerous times that legal protection does not confer acceptance. I just looked at some polling data on the Internet. The polling numbers are for transgender men and women, and, not cross dressers. A hefty minority (21%) believe transgender is a mental illness. A greater minority (39%) believe it is a choice to be a transgender man or woman. A 27% are not open to having a transgender man or woman as a friend. I think most people have accepted the premise that a biological man or woman may have been born in the wrong body. How does a cross dresser present his case for his desire to emulate a woman? Can anyone point a finger to the answer when a cross dresser cannot answer the question for himself? Pointing out to someone how wearing women's clothing makes one feel does not answer the "why" question. Just show up next summer at the neighborhood BBQ is a dress, hosiery and heels, makeup and wig and see how many people slowly drift away from your friendship.
I have all the legal protections in Washington State to dress as I want to express myself, and, to do me harm based on my sexual identity is a hate crime. I think one has to be ready to lose friendships, and, hopefully find new friendships among like minded individuals.
I also think it's totally the area you are living in wether its tolerance or acceptance.
By the way Vicky I love the little saying you have under your name. Much to be said there in being tolerated and accepted.
I am one of those that have found acceptance. I would like to think anyone can have what I have, and maybe you can. This is not some hobby, this is my life. I interact with people every day. I'm out , this is a big thing. I don't have the fears and problems that those that live in the closet do. I don't hide , like last night, karaoke with my friends. Basically I have achieved what I have by putting myself out there, taking risks, learning from my mistakes, and a little luck.
I agree with Jean, you won't find acceptance hiding in your home and being ashamed of who you are. Get out in the real world and be yourself. If you don't accept yourself how do you expect others to.
P.S.
I can barely tolerate most other humams.
it doesn't seem like such a dilemma to me. I don't know how you can tell the difference. If by acceptance you mean people are going to come up to you and say, "It's SO great you're a crossdresser. I wish my husband would present like a woman. That'd be AMAZING !!!" then you're right...probably not gonna happen. If you mean by acceptance that they're going to not make a big deal about you dressing like a woman and wearing a wig and forms the that sounds to me kinda like tolerating your dressing. I belong to a women's group at one of the local churches and they welcome me to their meetings, so I guess you could say they 'accept' me...but I guess they also 'tolerate' me as I'm a guy at a meeting meant for women.
This reminds me of the Circles of Association or some such model of relationships. It looks like a bulls eye target with you in the middle. Each ring gets bigger and hold more and more people.
1) The Acceptance circle is small and comes with knowing someone, possibly you. You are accepted and can dress or not because it's you they like.
2) The next circle may be tolerance and that contains people who know enough about the LGBTQ+ world that you are not a threat and it's live and let live for them.
3) The next circle out is probably going to be intolerance, those people who think anything they didn't grow up with or learn about in church is wrong. Some will hate you for even existing and others will put on a happy face and pass laws against your best interests.
4) The last circle is ignorance. They don't know, they don't care and if they learn a little they either forget it quickly or move to one of the other circles, but since there are so many of them, there isn't much movement.
There may be more variations on the model and you can add as much definition to each circle as you want, but it's pretty straight forward.
Sarah
Being transgender isn't a lifestyle choice. How you deal with it is.
You know, Vicky, we hear a lot about "white privilege" these days, and among the politically correct, this seems to have become the new "original sin" that those of us born with that particular skin pigmentation now have to be cognizant of and make amends for.
I would submit that a similar "hetero-normative" privilege exists in the world today, and one which generally has little interest in advancing the cause of sexual and/or gender divergent minorities such as us as this is simply not their issue. Historically, those people enjoying that "privilege" have had to be pushed and prodded (sometimes violently) to recognize that those particular minorities also have a right to co-exist alongside them and enjoy the same rights and benefits that they do. Even now, these hard-won rights are being rolled back in many parts of the world by reactionary forces who are feeling their power and positions of privilege being threatened. The same holds true on the sexual equality front as impacts otherwise "normal" heterosexual women as well, and who are seeking to advance women's' causes wherever the patriarchy still dominates.
Don't expect an easy ride on the road to generalized tolerance (or even acceptance) of gender-variant people such as ourselves. Existing societal attitudes and norms are too deeply entrenched. Progress will come - it's already happening - but the road is long and hard and will have its fair share of twists and turn along the way. We may not even see the full extent of it within our own lifetimes.
Visible minorities have in recent years begun to rail more vocally and vigorously against those of us unknowingly enjoying "white privilege", forcing us to hold up a mirror to allow us to see ourselves through the eyes of others - and sometimes it is not a pretty reflection that we see looking back at us. We sexual and gender variant folks need to take a page out of that same playbook and continue to use similar tactics of guilt and shame to push back against those who would try to continue imposing their "hetero-normative" standards on us in an attempt to keep us dis-enfranchised.
We have every right -nay, a duty - to keep up the pressure to realize the day when we are simply seen as a normal and equally-valued part of society.
There was a time when homosexuality was definitely neither accepted nor tolerated virtually anywhere, but we’ve made strides and today, by and large, it is accepted. Within the lifetimes of many of the members here we had segregation here in the US. Times change and people change.
I guess only the future will be able to answer this but you can have a small effect on by actively engaging on this issue.
I tend to agree with you. Many people might say they are fine with it but behind closed doors they probably have a different less tolerant viewpoint.
In my experience? If I want acceptance I go to gay/T venues. Like clubs and bars. Or, attend large T events where there r so many of us we're considered a phenomenon.
My experience going out alone, especially to vanilla venues, is acceptance by some SA's, tolerance by other SA's, and either disgust or just being ignored by the general public. I'm likely to be stared at as that lone, "weirdo".
Unless u can pass, don't expect to be accepted in vanilla venues. Tolerance is the best I hope for!.gif "Big Roll Eyes")
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
In living memory homosexuality was a crime in the UK, look at the case of Alan Turing for just one example, now we have Pride parades. I think general acceptance may happen one day, maybe already in some cases but how far off that is I wouldn't care to speculate.
Here today, gone tomorrow....
Are you talking about when you're out in the mask and suit? You used to say that you never went out en femme without the mask, so I'm not sure what you're saying. The mask would certainly add another level of complexity to dealing with people. I'm always out in vanilla venues and I get treated well.Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
Unless u can pass, don't expect to be accepted in vanilla venues. Tolerance is the best I hope for!
I am not a woman; I don't want to be a woman; I don't want to be mistaken for a woman.
I am not a man; I don't want to be a man; I don't want to be mistaken for a man.
I am a transgender person. And I'm still figuring out what that means.
Hi Vicky, There will never be total acceptance or Total Rejection, It is just an individual thing,>Orchid...
...
Having my ears triple pierced is AWESOME, ~~...
I can explain it to you, But I can't comprehend it for you !
If at first you don't succeed, Then Skydiving isn't for you.
Be careful what you wish for, Once you ring a bell , you just can't Un-Ring it !! !!
Personally as long as I am treated politely and or professionally I really don't care if it acceptance or toleration. What is said after I leave I have no control over or do I really care.
Of course if they have something nice to say about how I dressed, well who won't accept a complement. Even if they don't agree with what I'm wearing.
Hi Vicky, I am accepted by my SO. Tolerated by society. Liked by a few of them.
Part Time Girl
Generally speaking tolerance will be around for all time.........Acceptance will come much later, maybe in about twenty years....
Am I an optimist or something? :-)
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
It is difficult to know the difference between acceptance and tolerance within a group. People may seem accepting to your face, but when you are gone their real attitude shows through the gossip that takes place. It starts with tolerance, hopefully it moves to acceptance and finally onto embracing, this depends on the group of individuals. If you can't get to tolerance in a DADT relationship with your spouse, then some of us might wonder where we could ever get it. There are groups of people that are more accepting than others. To me it boils down to a couple of things. 1. does the group want to maintain the status quo? I call these the good old boys clubs. 2. are they inclusive, or exclusive. 3. are they using their religion to control, or using it to love! 4. on an individual level is it all about them, or all about us.
Power corrupts, and people seek power in many ways. They want to control money, they want to control people, intolerence is just another way to attempt to control, as in if you don't do it my way I wouldn't like you. There are some excellent comments here, we move forward one person at a time.
I like myself, regardless of the packaging that I may come in! It's what is on the inside of the package that counts!
Taking Diane's point how would Gays sit in the toleration or acceptance issue? Yes there are those for whom view being gay is an aberration often on religious grounds or based nothing more on plain bigotry. Beyond that it seems to me that Gays are generally a non issue now in British society, and that for me is acceptance. Now the shock or novelty value has gone from same sex marriage it's gone off the media's radar.
For Trans folk I think the issue is less clear. A few high profile cases have been magnified, perhaps distorted is a better term, by the gutter press. This can lead to a reinforcement of negative views held by some. However, if you look at what's happening in schools, gender issues are much more sympathetically handled. There's far greater recognition of transgender as not being a choice but as real and male and female. The NHS personal information gathered gives more that the 2 traditional options when asking as to the patients gender. Things are changing.
For a great many I feel their attitude is somewhere between acceptance and tolerance. More that they can't be bothered to have an opinion. Perhaps what's helped inform the general public more when it comes to the Gay issue is the exposure, and by exposure I mean hosting TV programs, lead roles in film and TV, of openly gay celebrates. They've gone mainstream. Perhaps that's what we need. Trans people doing mainstream TV in just the same way a genetic male or female person would. A sort of, "See they're really quite normal when you get to know them".
So perhaps that's the thing we need to do. Interact with SA's, anyone in just a normal manner and create a good impression. Normalise that image they may have stowed in the back of their minds.
So do I think acceptance is a pipe dream? No, it won't happen quickly, it will never be totally universal but that's true of many elements within society but the day is coming were CD'ers who present in a non flamboyant, non threatening, dressed as Mrs/Miss average, normal for the time and place, will become a non issue and hence I would say accepted member of society.
Who dares wears Get in, get out without being noticed
But that dynamic exists in all human endeavors. I have never been a part of any group where that didn't describe the behavior of the members toward each other. So I think that's just being human. Personally, I'll totally accept tolerance and mark it up as a win.
I am not a woman; I don't want to be a woman; I don't want to be mistaken for a woman.
I am not a man; I don't want to be a man; I don't want to be mistaken for a man.
I am a transgender person. And I'm still figuring out what that means.
I often consider how we are treated by society when compared to society's treatment of gays. My impression is that gays are tolerated by society and this is upheld in law. A parallel would be the toleration of different religious beliefs by society. To tolerate something can be a passive activity. You just acknowledge that a particular view or lifestyle has the right to exist but you don't have to embrace it or engage with it in any meaningful way. Within that society there are those who accept gays and in doing so befriend or otherwise engage with them.
When a gay couple moved into the house opposite there were many different responses from the neighbors, many just tolerated them which meant they did not criticize them or make their lives difficult. They took very little notice of them or even ignored them but did not behave badly towards them in either speech or action. Others of us became friends with the couple and frequently socialized with them. To me that was acceptance. In accepting we embraced the couple and brought them into our circle of friendship.
I believe if society as a whole tolerates cross dressing we shall also find that there are those in society who will go further and accept us. So, the two states are not mutually exclusive and I think we can live very well in a tolerant society and within that society we shall find pockets of acceptance.
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