Cowardly to not challenge the screed?

[IleneD]

Feel so awful, even cowardly.

I had a visit from an old shipmate (Navy friend) the other day. I'm not out to him, and I'm barely on a transition path; still learning the extent of my dysphoria. There's no doubt however that I am gender fluid SOMETHING, a crossdresser and quite possibly transgender. He is an old school kind of guy who served under my command and alongside me at times. On that level we are more than just friends.

Very old school, this gent. Near the end of our visit and lunch he went on a (political) tirade against "all snowflakes", and then went on about Transgenders; especially transgenders in the military. He was against their suitability for service; against taxpayer money supporting their medical needs, against VA benefits for TG care, etc. I briefly tried to talk him down, reminding him he probably had LGBT Sailor & Marines under his charge, and that the TG "phenomena" was real. [He insisted there were but 2 genders.]. I didn't really feel like I wanted to get into it with him, especially on this topic. And I didn't need to come out to him; not a soul so hostile to it. I didn't know he was of such a mind, but could have guessed.

Afterwards I felt like I chickened out and failed to call him out on it. He is a friend after all and not just an ex-shipmate.
As I proceed down my gender path I pray I have the courage to be Me, and stand up for all my brothers and sisters. It was a reminder that not everyone needs to know (until it gets to a transition point where it's impossible to cover.] I hate the thought of continued "living in shame" and afraid to expose myself, Yet, it seems wise to pick my fights (so to speak); especially with folks who once knew me as someone else in an entirely different life.

I just needed to get that off my chest.

[Sarah Doepner]

We need to carefully pick our battles. I've made statements to some who took them wrong and it may have damaged an otherwise solid friendship. In the relationship you describe there is a lot to overcome and it may be something that has to be done in very small steps, if at all. Part of the reason you didn't speak up may be because you are still attempting to find your own place in the world. Be patient for I'm convinced there will be many other opportunities to plant seeds of understanding or defend the kind of diversity we represent.

[Karen RHT]

You're bang on when you said "it seems wise to pick my fights" Ilene. Now that it's off your chest, done and over with. Nothing to regret, just relax and be who you are.


Karen

[Meghan4now]

Ilene,

Don't be too hard on yourself. You tried at least a gentle approach. Sometimes you need to let it go. He was not listening, nor in the frame of mind to listen. You could have gotten animated about it, or come out, but that had a low likelihood of doing any good. As you say, you are not on solid ground yet, and this would have probably created a big stir between you. There will be another day, and I believe that the current social political divisions are adding a challenge to people that might be otherwise a little more accepting.

You will know when it is the right time.

[BrendaPDX]

I can't say I would have done differently, you can't be Superman all the time. The fact that you realize how you wanted to act means you are on the right path. I have heard a term "Not the hill I wanted to die on today". Don't be so hard on yourself. Take care, Brenda

[Teresa]

Ilene,
I understand your dilemma, but you know there will come a time when he will have to be proved wrong for the sake of the all of us in this situation .
I feel you may have been happier writing this declaring you came out and stood up for your true feelings and made it clear to him that this community exists and does have equal rites .

I would be even tempted now to contact him by Email, letter or whatever and put the record straight , otherwise what happens next time you meet up ? Once you've done it you will find it easier. In some respects you are holding yourself back from accepting your true feelings and needs . We are similar ages and I know I can't replace this time again , if it doesn't happen now it never will , you were a courageous person in your work you can be the same with your personal life . Being TG is a wonderful challenge , I'm going to try my best to live it while I can .

[alwayshave]

Ilene, I have a friend that I have had since we were three years old. He is my best friend, we are the opposites politically and socially, but we have that bond. I have decided not to have that difference of opinion with him, it's not worth the emotional effort.

[IleneD]

THIS IS WHY I RETURN TO THIS FORUM.
You girls, you Members are amazing people. I wish I had time and space to personally reply to each one of you by name on this thread. Every response had a worthwhile answer. Many were wise and thoughtful. Your shared experiences on this matter are quite valuable to me, and helps shape my thinking for the future. I took away something from every response, even those ones that appeared to contradict each other. This is what I come this website for.

The advice was fairly uniform. Members said it was wise to walk away and not make a scene before my friend. Thank you. It probably saved me a long friendship. At least I will KNOW for the future where he stands on such issues and take it into account.

I don't see this guy very often; maybe every 2-3 months or irregularly. The next time I see him I will gently approach this again; perhaps appeal to his intelligence and intellect (that I know he has.) Your advice, again, is helping me formulate a polite and reasoned approach to engage the discussion.

And yes, a few of you emboldened me to stand taller for TG rights and issues in the future. It's so easy to be quiet and say nothing in the face of ignorance or challenge. I'm quite impressed at the high visibility TG's who have literally thrown themselves at the mercy of the mob; Jenner, Kris Beck, etc. And those of you who have transitioned and had war stories to tell, I applaud your courage as well. I want to be more "visible". I want to be a little more outspoken and REAL. It's wise to pick one's fights (yes), but I want to just be Me without shame.

And last but not least, you very fine girls of the forum reminded me that it is INDEED a cold cruel world out there for queer men like me; crossdressers, transgenders, .... most of the LGBT spectrum. As good as I feel about it and myself; as well publicized the equal rights movements, and as widely as "acceptance" has appeared to gain acceptance ..... it is still The World, owned, operated and populated by the normals. Even friends or family can turn unthoughtfully cruel on a topic so humanly intimate. THANKS FOR THE REMINDER to keep my eyes open, ears hearing, maintain situational awareness and expose myself to fire as little as possible.

Once again, I thank you all. You have my deepest respects. You are beautiful, wonderful women in your own right. Makes me proud to me a member of this board.

[sometimes_miss]

I understand your dilemma, but you know there will come a time when he will have to be proved wrong for the sake of the all of us in this situation

Then the question remains, exactly how much do we wish to be martyrs for the cause? If you've got the energy, patience and strength of will to go through life dealing with the extra problems that being a front line soldier for the tg army, great, go to it. But the life I've lead had left me pretty much exhausted. I'm tired of arguing with thick headed people. Enough is enough. They don't WANT to be 'enlightened'. They LIKE being what they are.
My life has been miserable enough. I don't wish to spend the rest of my life arguing with people about something that they're not likely to change their mind about. Prove them wrong? Hahahaha. People like that have their own facts, we see this in the news every day. They'll just call anything we say, as fake; they don't accept any facts that they don't like. They will only believe what they want to believe. Remember, you're attacking something that they believe in their hearts just as strong as their religion.
It's not going to change them unless they want to change. The media has now showed that we are out there, in large numbers. Ignorant, set in their ways, obstinate people will often carry their beliefs to the grave. The truth is out there if they want to see it. But many don't. They would just prefer that we disappear, some would prefer us dead.
The old saying is never discuss politics or religion. We can now add gender to that.

[Persephone]

First off, a heartfelt thank you for your service.
Next, I would do (and have done) the same thing. Confrontation never wins points and it certainly doesn't preserve friendships. If we want to be ambassadors for trans rights then we have to help people change. True change can only happen if you remain friends and take it a step at a time.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Teresa]

Lexi,
Sorry I don't agree , we should not be put down and persecuted , we have a right to do as we do , I can be as stubborn as the next man maybe more so , but I am only just emerging into the World with CDing , the fight is worth the effort , I do it for other members on the forum to try and give something back and I'm determined to prove to the World we should be accepted in society .

The situation is changing rapidly in the UK we have to be ready to show our true selves if the government has finally woken up to the fact we exist . The gender question is becoming part of everyday life , schools will now be given ratings taking into account their gender policy , passports are becoming easier to change . The 2021 national census will have far more questions requesting gender status .

No one wishes me dead or wants me to conveniently disappear because I'm a Cder ,now is the time it will be discussed , make no mistake !

[Alice K]

Ilene,
That was just a tactical retreat. Not to worry. Many ships have left the battle when out gunned. It is some times better to back away so that you can approach it in another direction at a later time. Heck George Washington retreated from New York and later won the war, Gen Smith retreated from the Chosin and the division was saved to fight another day,

There is so much misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of our situation. Some posts you may read on the web are pure hatred. There will be more opportunities to engage the enemy in the future when conditions for battle are more favorable. Live to fight another day.
Alice

[IleneD]

Alice,
Tactical retreat. LOL. I like that.
You are entirely correct, of course. So much misunderstanding. And the hatred I see on the internet and social media.
On the whole I'm a pretty 'straight' guy who believes and follows most virtue and standard wisdom. I'm also an Old School kind of guy in many ways, just as my friend.
It was just an awkward situation to have a trusted friend, someone who in another time I trusted my life to, go on about something that secretly touched me so personally; and I was unprepared and unequipped to properly deal with it at the moment. I had hoped for better out of him, for he's otherwise an intelligent man.
Yes, Alice K. Beware of the hatred. It's real, I'm finding out. And not just this episode with a friend. As I go down the path of my inner soul, I find myself listening to old acquaintances, family and friends with an different ear; and I hear on the side their opinions and thoughts (on TG or LGBT matters) and hear things I never once paid much attention. Very interesting how finding a new life changes my perspective on how I view and hear things now.

[Alice Torn]

I can relate. Everyone i know has the only two genders set in stone. I agree there are only two sexes, or some few born with both. I am a biological male with male plumbing, but in my being, i feel just a much woman than man. I just have male whiskers to shave, and male plumbing, and i like some guy things, but feel released form prison in a dress, hose and heels and a wig. I hear it from ministers, and many people that all this TG stuff is evil. I di not sign up for this. I have always wrestled with it, for as long as i remember, too. I am pretty conservative, other than this thing i have been born with. I think i am pretty straight, too, but I realize now i am not very attracted to most women now. Only a few. I am more attracted to Alice Torn in the mirror all dolled up .

[Dorit]

Another way of saying the same thing others have written: "You cannot lead someone to a place that they do not want to go." I have learned this through experience, so I now don't even try else I see some kind of openness or receptivity to learning about us.

[lingerieLiz]

There are those who will never change their views. I saw it in the south during desegregation. While many realized change needed to happen some refused to accept any of it. They simply dug a hole to crawl into. Refused to go anywhere that segregation was not enforced. Wouldn't go to movies because of mixed audiences. Ended up living a hateful life and dying remembered as a terrible person.

You can only educate someone who is interested in learning.

[ellbee]

So much misunderstanding. And the hatred I see on the internet and social media.

...

Beware of the hatred. It's real, I'm finding out. And not just this episode with a friend. As I go down the path of my inner soul, I find myself listening to old acquaintances, family and friends with an different ear; and I hear on the side their opinions and thoughts (on TG or LGBT matters) and hear things I never once paid much attention. Very interesting how finding a new life changes my perspective on how I view and hear things now.

Wait... I thought that nobody notices, and nobody cares?

I mean, don't we hear that all the time here?


Guess what, folks? These very same people aren't just some keyboard-courage hermit types (whether anonymous or not) -- they, too, actually go about their business of their daily lives. At the mall, at the grocery store, at the restaurants, at the park, wherever. Right alongside of you; the same people are where you (en femme) are, too.

Do these people notice sometimes? Yes, of course.

Do they care? Yes, probably.

Do they care enough to say/do something at the moment? Outwardly, probably not, for a variety of reasons... I mean, not everyone is always up for a big dramatic confrontation, which could, for example, potentially leave them with their wife/GF pissed at them for the next few hours/days/weeks -- or even end up in jail or in the hospital. But inside, their blood may very well be boiling. (And yes, believe it or not, sometimes they *do* actually show their disapproval in some sort of way.)


These people of "hatred" do exist. Actual, living, breathing fellow humans, who we all share this earth with. They will always exist, as some swath of the population, varying over time in terms of percentages & intensity. Not everyone will like you, whatever the reason may be. That is life -- get used to it. You cannot force somebody to like you... Just as somebody cannot force *you* to like them.

How would you like it if someone who whole-heartedly believes in only 2 separate genders (at any & all levels, and which is certainly their right) insists that you have to like it & like them, and to accept it & live your life accordingly? And if you don't agree with them? Then *you're* the "hater."



Ah, yes... As someone else mentioned: Diversity. That buzz-word mantra.

In the real world, diversity is not one's "approved" version of such. It simply doesn't work that way.

Just as you expect others to accept you, you also need to accept *them* for who they are. And that is true diversity -- inclusion of *all* types of people, beliefs, cultures, religions, etc. Otherwise, one is just acting like a fascist hypocrite.


Anyway, no, I'm not saying to give up CD'ing (as if that were entirely possible in the first place ), or to hide behind closed doors & curtains for the rest of your life. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't "fight" for your beliefs sometimes.

But one needs to be cognizant of the fact that not everyone is like you, that not everyone will like you, and that you won't be able to change everyone's mind on something like this.

Certainly not a defeatist attitude or anything. Just that it's a *realistic* one.


As others have mentioned, gotta pick your battles -- or at least take them on tactfully & strategically, in hopes of preservation so you can fight another day. That, and not everyone has to know the whole entire story, 24/7/365.

Besides, nothing wrong with having friends who might not agree with you 100% on everything.


P.S. This post is not directed towards anyone here in particular. It's just a general rant.

[Rogina B]

In the OP's post,it was made clear that the "friend" did not approve of "alphabet kids" in the military as well as the VA spending on Trans care for Vets. That is plain wrong ! Telling this person why they are on the wrong side of the issue is the right thing to do. There is such thing as replacing the term "friend" for "someone I know" after you realize they "will never get it and don't care to". The OP does not have a true friend in this person because she will or may never be accepted for what she may be.

[Fiona123]

Thanks for your service ! It's not easy being gender variant. I don't think you have anything two apologize for. If you are not ready to come out, it was probably not the right time to call out your Navy buddy.

[CarlaWestin]

Ilene, I talk to my best friend of over fifty years practically every day. He hasn't worked in over twenty years and tells me all about how gays and trannies are tearing down the country and family structure. I've let him know that there's someone very close to me that is transgender. And that I think his comments are ignorant and neanderthal. But we've been close for a long, long time. In your case it is probably wise to just let it go.

[SamanthaToday]

I thought you handled it well, like others said there was no point in revealing yourself at that moment.

You did say something and that's important. He will reflect on the talks you had like all people do and since he respects you, maybe you nudged the rock

a little closer.

[mykell]

ive told a story here a few times....worked on projects with different teams, one time with an unfamiliar team i had worked with one fellow i had worked with asked if i would be back to work the next week, i was not, he went on to exclaim how he hoped that so and so was not coming back to the team, told him i had not met so and so....he went on to try to describe a trans person and defaulted to you know that thing, i look him in the eye and said wow....we have a thing in our family....he stumbled with his next few words and said you know what i mean to which i said i sure do, and i had negative thoughts about it but educated myself and dealt with it....it was fun and that is how i will handle it again if that type of opportunity comes up again....now of coarse I am that person in my family so one is able to stick up for oneself without outing themselves....dont worry to much about not having a confrontation on it, you say they are a friend so i fear this conversation will come up again so maybe next time....

[Kellitgdet]

Thank you for your service. There will be a time and a place for you to be completely out and this wasn't it. Don't be so hard on yourself, you would have outed yourself before you are ready, to someone who would not appreciated the beautiful person you are.

[Alice K]

Ilene, hatred grows from fear. Fear is created by lack of awareness and understanding. What will be interesting for you to observe is his attitudinal change over time as you don’t join in in the bashing and even offer subtle terms of acceptance. And as societal awareness grows he will become more accepting (one would hope).

I guess what I’m saying is don’t hold it against him. Help him grow without outing yourself.
Alice

[Rogina B]

Your old "shipmate" is on the wrong side of goodness. He won't accept acceptance and needs to be told by you that he is on the wrong side. If and when he finds out about you...you won't be his friend anymore,anyway. Best to try and get him to see that his viewpoint is wrong.