Military Transgender or Crossdressing

[CD Tammy]

Many of us here are veterans. If transgender or crossdressing had been allowed when you were on active duty would you have dressed on duty? I underdressed when in uniform quite frequently and I crossdressed in the privacy of my BOQ or Base Housing during my two decades of service. The current controversy over whether TG can serve openly or enlist made me think about it. I am actually not sure that I would have crossdressed other than under my uniform when on active duty. That sounds odd because I wish that I could walk into work tomorrow wearing a skirt and hose without loosing my job. But I do not think that I would have done it when I was on active duty.

Any other former service have thoughts? How about those that didn't serve but know the situation?

[Pat]

Interesting question mainly because I'm not sure anyone would have noticed if I did. I was in an aviation company of an airborne unit in the early 70's. We either wore (baggy) fatigues or (baggy) nomex flight suits depending on what we were doing and everyone wore Cocrcoran jump boots all the time. There wasn't any real observable difference between men's and women's uniforms. It would be a different story for dress uniforms or even office-worker TWs, but for the unit I was in and the job I was doing, the uniform was, well, uniform.

[Jaylyn]

Things have come a long way. My dad was in WWII and his Dad in WWI I was lucky and slipped thru the cracks on the Vietnam conflict. Dad said that many times after a battle they would strip down and one of the water hauler trucks actually spared water for them to bath in. He said though it was very rare that they remained clean. If I remember the GG then became the nurses and worked back here in the factories. Because of the war stories dad told I feel strongly if GG were on the fighting front there would have been problems back then I really can't say about fighting today it all different with different types of fighting machinery. It is a shame though that we can walk freely in a skirt if we want as a US citizen but the military one can not as this is my understanding ( correct me if I'm wrong). I do remember though one story dad talked about was one of our Allied nations and many of their soldiers fighting in Kilts or maybe it was their parade uniforms. I see no difference personally.

[Tracii G]

I don't think I would have wanted to go out on an ambush in the boonies wearing a skirt and heels.

[Jean 103]

I was similar to Pat I guess. But Navy , inlisted , flight crew, in the mid 70s. I didn't dress back then, that and back then if you were gay you would be discharged. We would wear shorts and tee shirt under out flight suits. There wasn't a lot of privacy eather. Women were treated badly. I can remember an officer yelling at some poor office girl. I couldn't imagine anything she could have done to deserve it. I was just walking by their office at the time killing time . You know hurry up and wait.

[CD Tammy]

Most of my career, I wore Class B uniforms as my daily uniform. Believe me, I did own a skirt, blouse, pantyhose, and pumps. I certainly could have done it, actually considered it a couple time when on TDY.

[NicoleScott]

No. I am a crossdresser, and I have dressup sessions, occasional periods of a few hours of pleasure dressing. All other times I enjoy my guy life. I would be satisfied to dress up after a day's work while in the military, if I lived off-base.

[Stephanie47]

I don't know if cross dressing would be allowed now while on duty. From what I've read in the various military newspapers the issue is more about transsexuals. Crossdressing is still out in the cold. I was in the army during the Vietnam War. I was 11B (light weapons infantry). Clothing consisted of well worn combat boots, OD green socks. tee shirts, fatigue pants. No underwear was worn as your privates would end up being chafed or worse. The rear consisted of pulling 'palace guard' on top of a mountain or hill. Frankly, keeping your ass alive was of more concern than thinking about women's clothing...unless a woman was wearing them.

[Tracii G]

I understand if you are TG and have a desk job or supply job stateside but why rock the boat if you are in for 4 years?
A lifer might be different of course.
If you are a combat soldier just put up your CDing until you get out.
The important thing is to keep your team alive.

[Allison Chaynes]

I had a TG soldier in my last unit, who was chaptered for "failure to adapt."

I started wearing panties 24/7, except in the field, my last year in the Army. So even though it was hidden, yes I still CD'd a little while in uniform. At the time, I thought it was a panty fetish only, it took a few more years to realize it was way more. I was an officer, also, so it's not like it's something limited to just the enlisted ranks!

[AllieSF]

You make a valid point Tracii, but for some that is not possible. As Allison said above, you could get run out of the military just for being found out in some way. That is totally not right. Also, some can't put it on a shelf for a few years.

[Tracii G]

Allie I know that for some its not possible but they should have thought of the consequences before joining.
The military doesn't need the hassle to be honest. They aren't known to cater to people you cater to them.
I know all should be accepted but is that really good for a fighting force?

[Cherylgyno]

I would dress on weekends when I was state side.

[IleneD]

Tammy,

To first answer your question; would I have dressed on active duty if crossdressing had been allowed?
Absolutely not. Now.... let's discuss it.

Considering the 3 decade era in which I served and given the social attitudes, I would never attempt it. I don't care how much my identity or heart was in it, I couldn't be that brave because it would have been certain death to do so. Career death, reputation death, trustworthy & dependable death, etc.
How I wish it weren't so but the reality is that military culture isn't the optimum culture to be transgender, have sexual orientation issues or any other personal issue.

The military/warrior culture itself is much to blame, and that's understandable. Military culture is all about tradition and history. That culture MUST breed a "kill" mentality in warriors; to be strong, aggressive and decisive; all traits that general humanity values as male traits. Even if that's a stereotype, that's the plain damn truth. That culture is very INTOLERANT of anything effeminate or un-masculine. Most of the women who are successful at military careers do so because they adopt "male" qualities in the male dominated world. The men (warriors) don't assume feminine characteristics through gender integration.

There are rare and valuable examples of transgenders who have successfully served. I'm thinking of Chief Kristin Beck. There's a few notable others. But to a girl they will admit they had their marvelous and often heroic military success AS a man, in their MAN body. Had they come out on the middle of active duty, they would have been discharged from duty.

I think nearly every TG or CD who served on active duty (and I might say this is true of most LGBT folk during the DADT years and before) knows that one of the best places for people like me to "hide out" is in the military. I didn't consciously do it. I actually joined because it sounded like a lot of fun and a rare opportunity I faced. But the armed services attract a lot of dysphoria sufferers and gay people (or it did) because the mere disciplinary consequences could be so strict. Looking back, I used my military status as a form of "therapy" to convince myself I could be just like normal men. We all wore uniforms. We were a rank and a name. The military supplies you with an identity. For a man with an undecided identity, it was a grateful gift and a great place to hide my problems...... almost.

I under-dressed during my career, often under class C dress casual uniforms. It was panties, and sometimes bras. I'd often find myself TDY or traveling alone on official business travel. I bought garments like lingerie and slips, then disposed of them before returning home to base. It wasn't prolific and the secret I carried under my uniform almost always scared the crap out of me.
I started for a time to wear panties under my flight suit, until I had an in-flight emergency and almost had to eject. It was over Indian Country, so to speak. I faced the specter of being captured by an angry hostile enemy in women's panties (and tortured for it), or being rescued but EXAMINED head to toe my my Navy Flight Surgeon. Not the kind of thing I needed to have running through my mind while my jet was falling like a refrigerator from FL280. I never did that again, besides I learned that heat transfer through a fire resistant Nomex flight suit can still cause nylons like panties to melt to human skin. Panties were off the warrior wardrobe.

I pray that the laws change. However, TRUE change will take a long, long time if ever. The military culture is very un-forgiving of weakness or failure. It just is. There's a social evolution going on now with greater acceptance of LGBT peoples; especially the CD/TG community. Younger people are learning. Others in The World are coming along. It's a very slow process to change minds and hearts. It will happen one day, but that day is NOT now.
I don't care if the Law is changed. I don't care if the courts strike down the Executive Order to rescind the Obama waiver. There's still a cadre of senior leaders who have adapted to the LGBT changes. They will look out for those who are on active duty, and I don't fore see wholesale dismissals from the ranks. The one thing that ANY LAW can't change are the hearts and minds, and the culture. Until that (slowly ? ) changes in American culture, it won't fly in the ranks which are a reflection of the country. TG's serving openly would be discriminated against, not promoted, be deemed 'unsuitable' for all sorts of bureaucratic reasons, etc. The warrior culture may NEVER be fully accepting or comfortable with men in women's garb simply because of the prevailing scent of testosterone that is everything violent and aggressive.

I fully support and applaud the Activists who are working this issue with the DoD and government. I fully understand the issue of human rights, and a TG's right to serve their country. But I also know the military and what it is; and military life is NOT suitable for every citizen, and every citizen is NOT compatible with the military. God Bless the Kristin Becks who have taken the spears for everyone else.

[abby054]

In a field unit in the Army, no way. For the reasons described in this thread.

On the other hand, my last three assignments were to laboratory units where civil service people greatly outnumbered the active duty military. For me, it was fifty hours a week in an office or traveling. I dressed and went out often on weekends. I was required to live on base and I did so. As a field grade officer, I had my own apartment on base. Because the assignments were Reserve call ups, my wife remained on the left coast while I worked and traveled between NYC, Philly, and DC. Going out through the gates, even with heightened security, was no problem. To get back in, I had to revert to drab mode, stashing the pretty clothes in a bag. I kept all my passes and paperwork in perfect order and never had any hassle at all.

[alwayshave]

In the early 80s I was in a medical unit in the Massachusetts National Guard, keeping the Commonwealth safe from invasion by Rhode Island. I never thought of underdressing while on-duty/training.

[CD Tammy]

Most of my military career was as an officer. While I did spend some time in the field, most of it was in garrison. I think that I wore pantyhose or tights under my uniform more than not. That soft whisper that only I heard and felt was huge for me. I was also single for almost my entire twenty year career. I was only married the last four years.

I also wore pantyhose or tights when in the field. I loved that extra warmth and that little extra sheer energy when on a march. I did not however, wear them, at all when in combat or even in theater. I also feared what would the result be if captured.

As has been pointed out there is no difference in the utility uniforms, at least not in the army BDU or ACU uniforms. They are simply sized not sexed.

[Beverley Sims]

Never dressed on duty, off the base and on leave, a very different story.

[Anna Stouf]

I absolutely would NOT have dressed while in the military. First of all, I spent most of my time in Vietnam. Crossdressing was never on my mind. I was only concerned about doing my duty and keeping myself and my buddies alive. When we were in the company area, we lived in tents. When we were out, we slept on the ground, rolled up in mosquito nets.

When I came back from Vietnam, I served six more months before I ets'd. In the last couple of months, the urge to CD started coming back (I was a CDer before I went into the military), but I didn't do anything about it until I was completely out of the Service and back home again.

Then the flood gates opened and I went bonkers. Shortly I was a complete, full bore, CDer. That was 50 years ago and I'm still a complete, full bore, CDer to this day. And I always will be.

Anna

[Georgette_USA]

As someone who was a CD part time when in the US Navy from 69-74. I NEVER would have under-dressed when in. I lived off base and would dress by myself when there. I would also drive around sometimes and that is when I was caught.

I than had to visit the base Psychiatrist and the Security people (I had a Top Secret clearance). They were only concerned with any possible Homosexuality.

I was on submarines and we would spend 3 months at our home base and 3 months at sea. At sea we would wear special lightweight dark blue jumpsuits, They could be worn by either gender I guess. At home base we would wear our Navy uniforms, all white in summer dark blue in winter. Or we would wear our work uniforms, blue Jean type shirt and pants. I can't remember what females would wear on or off base.

With the attitudes of the times I definitely would not wear female uniforms. Things are a bit more open now, and I know some that have started to wear their gender presentation uniforms.

From what I understand, Just on or off CD is not accepted. It is mainly for the benefit of full TG/TS people.

[Lacey New]

I did my time in the army, infantry. Lots of time in the field. IleneD is absolutely correct in her analysis. An infantry platoon is 19year old boys full of T. CDing then and now would be a disaster for anyone. It does not matter what law or regulations say, human nature is what it is. And unfortunately, in the military, that is not on our side.

[SaraLin]

Many of us here are veterans. If transgender or crossdressing had been allowed when you were on active duty would you have dressed on duty? ?

There is a vast gulf between "allowed" and "accepted" - and even more distance till we get to "OK"

Back when I was in, the answer would have been NO WAY. Even if the Army (my branch) had officially allowed it, I would have still had to deal with everyone around me, and there was pretty much zero tolerance among the macho, alpha-male types that were drawn to serve. My health and perhaps even my life would have been in peril even though I was never in a combat situation. Even it that didn't happen, I would still have been subject to getting crap from anyone with more stripes or silver on their collars. Life would have been miserable at best. I decided early on that my best option was to serve my hitch and get the heck outta there. While I was proud to serve and it did me a world of good, it was never going to be a proper fit.

Also, back then I was still trying to deal with my own feelings and was full of fear, self loathing, and was confused as h&!! about what was "wrong" with me. I was trying with all my might to fit in and be like the 'other guys'. Needless to say it didn't work, but hey I tried. It took a long time before I was able to accept that (as a famous sailor used to say) "I yam what I yam".

[CD Tammy]

I have a friend, who has no idea that I crossdress. He’s an O-6 in the Army. This guy is recruiting poster material. Twenty years in the service, 11A MOS. He’s all grunt. This is the guy that you want in charge of the brigade when things go bad. When I was at Camp Merrill, this guy was a company commander of one of the companies in the 4RTBn while I was commander of the FLT Co.

I picked him up from ATL and he spent a couple days at my house before heading to his new stateside post. Something came on television about TG in the military. That got a rant out of him about gays in the military, not positive. Language that I won’t repeat, but it certainly conveyed the message that he wasn’t happy about TG in the military. This isn’t new for him, I remember a decade ago when he said some of the same stuff just about gays in general.

Since my spare bedroom is now an office, he stayed in my RV. I found some lingerie (that was not mine) stuffed in the couch cushions. Specifically a black teddy with an L shaped cut in the front. His bags had been shipped ahead. He was traveling very light, just a carry on. He was also traveling in uniform, ACUs. Obviously, I am not going to mention anything to him but it makes me wonder how prevalent underdressing is in the military today. I did it for most of my twenty year career.

[Lindabrown]

I think women's clothes are not ideal for combat,so I would not do it.

[CD Tammy]

I agree with you on that part, Linda but I am mostly wondering about garrison. The majority of our military spends most of the time in garrison.