Thank you for sharing your take on this book, Pat. I need to find and read it, but your summary is very helpful and insightful.
Thank you for sharing your take on this book, Pat. I need to find and read it, but your summary is very helpful and insightful.
Thanks for the post, Pat. Now, I know exactly why I am, or maybe am not, trans!
Now, if only soneone would answer the age old question: How many angels can fit in the head of a pin?
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
Very interesting Pat
Moderator Note
I would just add this
It is possible that cross dressing is caused by a differing strength of testosterone wash at the ten week gestation period.
I am sure research in the future will reveal more.
( I can remember when they use to say nothing is smaller than an atom)
Thank you Pat for wading through that book and providing what seems to be a great summary.Originally Posted by Pat
I selected this quote from your post because it seems to support the explanation I've been working with for the last couple of years. My version suggests that when we are uncomfortable with how we are experiencing gender we "self medicate" by changing our choices about appearance and behavior. (Other words that might be better than "self-medicate" might be "accommodate" or "adapt" or "mitigate"). How that manifests depends on how strongly one's dysphoria is being felt. Some are happy to wear clothing for a short time, maybe have an opportunity to climax, and then go back to a totally male presentation. Others need a 'stronger dose' and may dress fully with makeup, hair, forms and go out in public. And that may still not be sufficient for others who need to live full time and transition socially and medically to make their gender preference and self image be congruent and appropriate.
I'm very much right-handed and my 2D:4D ratio is slightly tilted toward the masculine, but my gender dysphoria seems to be fairly strong more often than not. So the multi-factor explanation may hold more correlates than you've been able to summarize here or have been identified so far. Anyway, thanks again for providing this summary.
Last edited by Sarah Doepner; 11-06-2017 at 01:05 PM. Reason: Added thoughts
Sarah
Being transgender isn't a lifestyle choice. How you deal with it is.
Pat,
I like the the two factor model, I do feel there is more than one influence driving my feelings and needs . I also think I do it because the outer appearance shows the World how I feel inside .
I must admit without thinking I can do some jobs left handed as well as my right .
I personally don't feel I was affected by outside influences as a young child , the T kicked in early and and brought together all the loose ends . My gender counsellor did suggest I had a strong male/female conflict going on and the female side was trying to take over, I called it a gut feeling which started at the age of 8-9 years and I've lived with it 24/7 ever since .
I do think Susan makes an interesting point, the majority of the public don't know why we dress, it was also a point I raised in the TS section , standing side by side they don't know what anatomy has been changed . Do they assume we are all in transition . Cders don't get so much coverage because most believe it's something we do in private at home possibly for sexual pleasure alone or maybe with a male partner.
Pat,
I meant to thank you for giving an insight into this publication .
While we all look to experts we mustn't forget they wouldn't be so without us , we are the source of their information . When we exchange our thoughts here it's from the horses mouth and not second hand .
Last edited by Pat; 11-03-2017 at 06:32 PM. Reason: Off topic item
This is very true but we can only tell the world how it feels, science will explain to the world why we feel it. Thats why I think posts like this are very important
We should also bear in mind that the author of this book is also one of us (see here) and so also speaks from first hand experience.
As a person that meets the criteria for the 2D 4D criteria and the non righthanded characteristic (most things I do with either hand with specific things done with right (write, throw) and left (hammer, shoot basketball, hockey). Racket sports I will switch hands (no back hand shots), it provides a bit of validation as to what makes me what I am. Thank you Pat for the very insightful article and analysis
Pat,
Thanks for the synopsis. some interesting stuff there that makes sense. Although it may not answer the "Why" question, it appears to present a lot of food for thought.
The index-ring finger ratio applies to me, so I find any findings along those lines interesting. Tooth diameter is a new one to me. I may have to ask my dentist or oral hygienist how they would classify my tooth diameter (if I can think up a way to ask without sounding weird). I've read of the non-right handedness also. I don't think this applies to me, but the Nuns were good at discouraging left handed activity.
I may have to read the full book now. You've piqued my interest.
Thanks for finding it.
Interesting post, Pat. Do u recall seeing anything in the book that mite explain late in life dressers like myself?
Finger length and non ritehandedness aside, I had zero gender issues until I was 50 and tried on women's things for the first time. For an as yet unknown reason!
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
Fascinating thread Pat, thanks for brining it to the top again Doc. Perhaps it should be a sticky.
Interestingly I have the 2D:4D for a woman but I am very right handed, I also can't read a map unless its the same direction I am driving in
A.K.A Rebecca & Bec
Pat,
Nicely put up article, it makes interesting reading but does not explain as to why I am what I am.
maybe one day there will be a definitive answer.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
The book doesn't really address that directly. Again, since it's a summary of recent published peer-reviewed studies, it only addresses things that there have been academic papers on. He does say two things that stood out to me as addressing it indirectly:
The other thing he gives a whole chapter (Ch. 11, Conscious Choice and Spirituality) over to is why people come out. Which you could look at through the other end of the microscope as addressing your question. The basic premise makes sense: that people tend to come out around the time of an existential crisis.It is clear that many TSTG emerge from secrecy later in life. Some remain as closeted cross-dressers into advanced ages. We do not have good longitudinal studies on these secretive TSTG because most of them never perceive the need to see a mental health professional.
Bevan, Thomas. The Psychobiology of Transsexualism and Transgenderism: A New View Based on Scientific Evidence (p. 158). ABC-CLIO. Kindle Edition.
(Note: "GPS" = Genital Plastic Surgery. The term he uses for what we call SRS or GCS.)Yalom (1980) identified four types of existential crises:
•Realization that you will die.
•Realization that life has no intrinsic meaning.
•Realization that we are forever isolated from one another.
•Realization of freedom of action.
Existential crises have effects on transsexual and transgender people who are closeted and keep their TSTG behavior or status a secret. For transgender people, the crisis may provoke a TSTG to stop dressing alone in secret and to go out to a support group. It may also increase the frequency of going to TSTG-friendly clubs and organizational events. Existential crises may trigger complete coming out by transgender people and the desire to begin transsexual transition. Those who are already out may also be affected by increasing the frequency of their TSTG behavior. Finally, existential crises can trigger transsexual transition progression including surgeries to change appearance and TS GPS.
Which is pretty much my story in a nutshell - I was semi-closeted until I had a near-death experience that made me realize the crushing regret I'd have if I died without coming out. Suddenly the need to come out outweighed all the reasons I should remain closeted. I don't know if it applies to you.
Last edited by Pat; 01-05-2018 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Add note; improve formatting.
I am not a woman; I don't want to be a woman; I don't want to be mistaken for a woman.
I am not a man; I don't want to be a man; I don't want to be mistaken for a man.
I am a transgender person. And I'm still figuring out what that means.
I have to fall in with Beverley. I read your post. I have read other articles slanted to the layman for easier reading. After analyzing all the information thrown at me over the decades I still cannot see any model that fits all. Why do I do what I do? It's still a firm I have no idea. I consider myself a plain vanilla cross dresser. I think your comment concerning a near death experience may be applicable to many people. Such experiences seem to, but not always, change a person's perception of his or her values living life. Does a near death experience cause someone to engage in activities of self gratification before it's too late? Get those dresses out of the back of the closet? Buy that sports car? Take the trip around the world? Drop out from society? Or, engage in activities helping those who are less fortunate? The waters for me remain muddy.
I do not believe that Cding and TG and TS are totally separate. I personally believe it all comes from the same basic points, gender variance. Much like matter, combinations of the same thing can create something completely different. But, they came from the same stuff... That is how I see TS/CD.... We end up living totally different lives and have entirely different circumstances. The gender variance IMO originates at the same place.
I believe that what Pat is putting out is some science which correlates those things. It is IMO, loosely able to connect some dots. I am not against anything in the book per say, but I don't see it being rock solid. More like that there are things in science that can help with building a foundation of knowledge that we who are at least somewhere on the spectrum have reasons for being there other than just mommy or daddy did/didn't love me enough, or my sister had fun painting my nails when I was 3.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
I doubt there will be one. My only intention is to bring this info forward because it will resonate with some, probably for entirely different reasons than it resonates with me. I totally recognize that there are others for whom it does not resonate at all, especially for those who don't feel they're transgender.
Again, the answer will be different for depending on the individual. And the viewpoint. Some may see my decision to come out as an act of self-gratification. I don't see it that way. I felt I had been given a rare and wonderful gift and had left it unopened up to that moment. And I regretted it, not for what I might get from it, but from embarrassment at having spurned such a wonderful thing that had been crafted for me. (Edit: Odd as it may sound, I felt I was being ungrateful.) I don't know if there's an afterlife, but I realized if there was, I was going to have to carry that regret into it. Next time around, I'm going to go into whatever comes next joyful.Does a near death experience cause someone to engage in activities of self gratification before it's too late?
Last edited by Pat; 01-06-2018 at 09:36 AM. Reason: further insight on reflection
I am not a woman; I don't want to be a woman; I don't want to be mistaken for a woman.
I am not a man; I don't want to be a man; I don't want to be mistaken for a man.
I am a transgender person. And I'm still figuring out what that means.
A fascinating read. Like many of you, "Why?" is the $64,000 question and one that I have spent a great deal of time thinking about. I still don't know the answer to the question as it pertains to me.
What I have accepted in respect to my CD, TG or whatever initials you want to apply to me....
It's something that has been inside me from a very early age
For the most part, I suppressed it from an early age well into my 40's
5 years ago, for the first time, I accepted that this was who I was and began to explore what this meant to me. At the time, I thought I was just a guy who liked wearing women's clothes.
I've come to learn that it is much more than that. I feel a big part of who I am is very feminine and I've come to accept it. I now describe myself as much more than a crossdresser but not quite a transgender.
I don't think I'll ever fully transition as there are to many personal factors at play. I've fully accepted that this is who I am and have never been happier. I feel no guilt whatsoever and continue on this amazing journey.
I have many of you to thank for all the support that you've provided for me. I couldn't have done it without you!!
Thank you Pat - great find and I know it takes great effort to enter in a long writeup.
I certainly knew of the genetic findings, but not the non-righthandedness or the 2D:4D.
I am right handed, but fairly ambidextrous. I can write fairly well with left and can do a Vulcan sign with both equally well.
my 2D:4D ratio is close to 1 with 4 being just slightly longer.
Despite there being an estimated 5 times a many CDers as TS, we hide better so fewer studies.
Hugs, Ellen
wow NJC, your feelings and your timeline are so very similar to my own. As have you, I have come to realize its not the cloths but the reason why I put them on in the 1st place. A real internal femininity that is not created by clothing, but that the clothing and any other feminine expression is not an effect but a reflection of the person I am inside.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
Fascinating thread, Pat.
I am more or less ambidextrous, able to do most things with my left hand nearly as well as my right with the exception of handwriting.
Some research gives support to the hormonal wash theory; I've never thought that is the whole story.
Does the book make any mention of body shape at puberty? Mine was more like that of a cis-female without breast development than a cis-male. It would be interesting to see how my brain stacks up wrt male/female characteristics.
For those who want to read the book without buying it, the best bet is a university or college library that supports a significant Department of Psychology. I still have and use borrowing privileges where I obtained my B.Math.
Hi Pat,
In an earlier post I said I needed to get the book. I got the book and, oh my goodness, what a transformation that produced. Back in 2013, I spent months reading peer reviewed literature on the subject and learned a great deal. But found no answers to my questions, particularly the question of "Why?" As a biologist and ecologist studying such different behavior is important to understanding the full range of diversity in a species and its adaptations and adaptability. And when it is personal it is even more important. This book has brought me so much comfort in recognizing who I am. It is so exciting and the long list of references at the end of each chapter provides a source to go to journals and find the original work. Bevan has done the field a great service. But what is really interesting is that he concludes the book with a comment about how he also wanted to provide the kind of knowledge that we need to defend ourselves when faced by criticism. Not sure he accomplished that in a way that is really useful to most of us who are not biologists, but it is a start and a very, very good one.
Unfortunately, and this is not a criticism of the book, although the science can provide a lot so we can understand better who we are and why we are the way we are, it does not provide a lot of guidance in how to live with it. That is up to us. With the knowledge though, it opens a lot of creative doors to allow us to move more freely in the world and be able to defend ourselves against the critics. It is not an easy book to read, even for a biologist, but your initial summary is right on and so helpful. I agree with someone else who suggested this become a sticky - it is well worth it as it goes to the heart of what troubles so many of us: "Why am I this way?"
Thank you so much.
That's certainly true. But Beven did what he set out to do. He can't build the whole structure, but he can be a brick in the foundation.
I think one of its most important functions is that it gives people a "science" explanation on why we exist; why we are drawn to do what we do. And when we know that this is *not* an aberration, not a mental illness, then more of us can give ourselves permission to be. And what we see so much of in the Crossdressers forum is people who need to give themselves that permission. I was hoping some of the information would take hold and I'd start seeing it pop up in the discussions and spread out from there, but that hasn't happened. But at least it's out there.
I am not a woman; I don't want to be a woman; I don't want to be mistaken for a woman.
I am not a man; I don't want to be a man; I don't want to be mistaken for a man.
I am a transgender person. And I'm still figuring out what that means.
http://www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/u...ook-Review.pdf
found it to be an excellent review
Fascinating read. I fit into the ambidextrous category, I always wondered why my left hand was my right's worst enemy. Everyone that knows me, knows I have a horrible time with right and left. And in the 2D/4D comparison, 4 is longer on me.
In the testosterone wash, I'm inclined to believe that I got the short end. In conversations with my dad after my mom passed away, I found out mom's sexual drive just wasn't there. She wanted nothing to do with him for the last 20 years of her life. Since testosterone is a vital ingredient in woman's sexual pleasure, her lack of may be a piece of why I like the dressing side of me.
For whatever reasons we're drawn to this, we will do it. One little sidebar I've noticed, that has been mentioned before in other threads, I've never felt guilty about dressing. The couple people that knew I did, could never understand why I never felt it. Oh well, like it or leave. I'm not changing for you.
I don't dress up because I want to be a woman, I dress up to make me happy.
Thanks for doing the 'heavy lifting' with this book, Pat. Very interesting.
Your quote, "I think one of its most important functions is that it gives people a "science" explanation on why we exist; why we are drawn to do what we do. And when we know that this is *not* an aberration, not a mental illness, then more of us can give ourselves permission to be. And what we see so much of in the Crossdressers forum is people who need to give themselves that permission", says it all for me. The more knowledge the better for us and those who don't understand us.
Just to add to the impromptu survey, I am totally right-handed but fit the 2D4D exactly.
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