Moral dilemma

[Sami Brown]

As I was replying to another thread yesterday, I started to write something about dressing according to community norms, as in something people wouldn't think looked pornographic. After some thought, I took out the sentence.

What made me do that was that in the eyes of some in society, the way we crossdress could be seen to be as offensive as a tarty looking woman, or a nudist, for that matter. Isn't it possible that someone dressed as a tart sees as little wrong with it as we view ourselves? How about the nudist? He or she could see nudity as being an expression of how they feel inside, similar to how we feel our crossdressing is our way of telling the world what we are about.

In your opinion, is the comparison fair? Or is it comparing apples with oranges, similar but still quite a bit different?

I am interested in reading your opinions, especially in regards to how far society should bend in order to be more accommodating of people who are different than themselves.

Sami

[Tracii G]

Myself I choose not to dress like a hooker because it is not how I want to be seen.
My reason also relates to CDing or being trans as well I don't want to be looked at as a sleazy tart that is out trolling for sex.
You are more than welcome as a CD to dress any way you want but don't get mad when some guy hits on you and figures out you are a guy.
Ass kickings are all on you.

You refer to it as a moral dilemma so I have to ask is looking like a hooker something you like as a man?
Do you frequent those kind of ladies?

IMO hookers look trashy and carry STDs so I will stay as far away from them.

[sarah_hillcrest]

I guess there are two ways to look at it, you dress like a _______ so you must be a __________ and if someone does ____________ to you then you deserve it.

Or you wear provocative clothing to express your inner provocateur and people should mind their own damn business.

[docrobbysherry]

I go out dressed a lot, Sami. However, I don't go to vanilla venues in racy outfits. In fact, I hate going to vanilla venues period!

Hot women dress in sexy outfits to cubs and bars and so do I. Many times a guy will approach me from the back. Then, when he sees my face, he surpressed a scream and ran off ASAP!

Like Traci said, if u look and dress hot out at nite time, T friendly venues? Prepare to be approached by interested guys or trans!

I always seem to get a lot of attention on the dance floor!
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[Jodie_Lynn]

As others have stated, you dress appropriate for the venue. Club wear at the mall will get you looked at askance, while barely drawing a glance at a nightclub.

Where is the moral dilemma? Whether I choose to dress as a man, a soccer mom, a streetwalker, or a nun, if my presentation does not violate public ordinances for lewdness, what does it matter? Is my manner of dress somehow harmful to society?

[NicoleScott]

You are more than welcome as a CD to dress any way you want but don't get mad when some guy hits on you and figures out you are a guy.
Ass kickings are all on you.

Blaming the victim of an assault because of how they're dressed is a sorry attitude. Do you blame rape victims because their skirts were too short? Should your ass be kicked because someone doesn't like your sexual preference?

[Jean 103]

Being completely nude is not the same as wearing clothes, or even a bathing suit . I use to go to a nude beach with my girl friend when I was 16, a very long time ago. I saw nothing wrong with it at the time.

I tend to wear skin tight clothes, and show a lot of skin. Yes I attract attention, isn't that the point of dressing in woman's clothes? It's called fashion. Yes guys hit on me , it's ok I'm BI, I have a couple boyfriend's. They like what I wear. Anyway I get feed back from my friends, in the real world. I get lots of complements form them as well as complete strangers. I miss the mark sometimes. It's not easy constantly coming up with new outfits.

[Sami Brown]

Ok, I don't think I explained the question quite right, and I apologize for that.

I personally dress conservatively, so I am not questioning whether I am going to offend others, even though I am sure there are people who are offended just by the fact that I am a crossdresser. Those people, because of their beliefs, look at crossdressing as entirely wrong. It doesn't matter whether the crossdresser is dressed conservatively or not. They still hate it.

So what we hope is inform those people, and their perception will change. They decide that not all crossdressers are evil or of poor character.

So that is what we prefer to happen. My question is about other societal minorities who want the same acceptance. Nudists, for example, would like public nudity to be accepted. They, like us, like their method of self expression. Their reasoning for nudists may be similar to how I reason the public should be more understanding of crossdressing. If I hypothetically think that crossdressing is okay but don't think nudism is okay, am I holding a double standard? Or does nudism rise to a different level of public offensiveness than crossdressing, making the double standard warranted?

This line of questioning arose because I felt like I might be holding a double standard by suggesting in another post that the individual should dress a certain way, which got me to thinking about double standards in general. That is the dilemma of which I speak. Hopefully my question is clearer now.

Sami

[Becky Blue]

Its the same argument as the MIAD's and the 'Bearded lady' some say any person has the right to dress how they want. That would include dressing in skimpy clothes or a very short skirt. Other argue that as a community we are looking for acceptance from the general public so we should be extra responsible and extra careful to have higher standards and keep a lower profile. Yet others would argue that the more out there people shift the community's acceptance and make it easier for the lower profile of us to blend in.

Me, I try blend in and hope that I am helping my sisters by showing people that I am harmless and actually quite pleasant

[Kelly DeWinter]

......

You are more than welcome as a CD to dress any way you want but don't get mad when some guy hits on you and figures out you are a guy.
Ass kickings are all on you.

Tracii;

I seriously cannot believe you condone assault because of the way someone dresses.

Reading back through your posts , If a man hit on you and he turns out to be homophobic, do you really believe , you deserve an 'ass kicking' ?

Your statement basically justifies another persons right to forcefully impose their will over how you present yourself in public.

​I'm still shaking my head that anyone in this community can hold this opinion.

[Tracii G]

Nicole and Kelly I do not condone assault and never did I say I did.
You both assumed something that wasn't there. That is your liberal mindset based on feelings not rational thinking.
You both decided to put words in my mouth which I would never say.
No I do not blame the victim for what happens but blame the person that preys on others.
All I am saying is use your head for God sake and don't dress to put yourself in a bad situation like that.
I find it hard to believe some here can't see the sense in what I said. Its just common sense.
No my ass does not need to be kicked because I'm gay that is beyond nuts and most people don't think that way.

[Kas]

I don't think tracii was condoning anything. She is just putting out the possibility that this might happen. I agree you would more likely be assaulted/harassed if you went out to a night club looking like a complete sl*t rather than being more conservatively dressed. And I'm NOT talking about sexual assault/harassment.

Say your at a night club dressed all sl*tty with your bum hanging out and some dude sees you from the back, comes up and starts grinding on you with an erection in his pants from how sexy you look. Then he reaches into your pants and feels you have a penis? I think the man would get very angry (depending on how homophobic he is), that he was sexually aroused by another man which may lead to him taking it out on you. Hitting a girl isn't ok, but hitting another guy on the other hand...

I know this is horrible, but it's a reality we live in.

[Tracii G]

Exactly Kas.
I try to deal with reality but some live in a world where they view things as they "feel or think" they ought to be.
Sure we should be able to dress anyway we want and that includes ****ty and not be bothered by guys getting the wrong idea.
Sad thing is the world doesn't work that way and the sooner you realize that dressing ****ty only raises the risk of something bad happening.
I'm sure there will be some try to twist what I said and make it sound like I'm the bad person.

[Teresa]

Sami,
There's no pleasing some people they just have a bad attitude to life no matter how we dress we can't pander to those sort of people .

OK it is common sense to dress appropriately for your surroundings and the time of day , that's why a social group is a great outlet on theme nights the chance to dress OTT and have some innocent fun .

I appreciate it's something I have to learn , what to wear everyday , how much or little makeup .

I can't say what drives the nudist community, I don't have a bad body for my age but literally hanging around with others naked isn't for me , seeing another person's wobbly bits , discovering how cruel gravity can be on a body shape ! I know what drives me , I'd much sooner be seen wearing a nice outfit and I'd much rather see a woman making the most of what she has and choosing the right clothes to take advantage of her figure .

I don't feel it's a double standard , besides I feel the cold more now and I would be covered in permanent goose pimples !!

[docrobbysherry]

Sami, I let your "nudist" comments slide before. But, I can't do that this time. I'm not sure how much experience you've had with either nudists or trans? It sounds to me like not much.

I have been to a nude beach in Europe and several friends of mine were nudists. The fact is, most nudists r not very pretty!
U seem to assume they would like to walk around naked everywhere. Mosts have mirrors and DON'T! Thankfully, I mite add.

Now, regarding dressers: I've been meeting them by the 100's for years at T events around the country. However, I had never met one before my first event, the SCC in Atlanta. Suddenly, I'm among 750 T's in one hotel! What a shock that was! They nearly ALL looked like men in dresses to me!

Over the last 8+ years I've gotten used to even the most manly looking dressers. Because I've come to see the beauty inside of so many of them. As would the Muggles if dressers were common enuff.
And, the same is true of nudists. While I presently cringe at the thot of all the over weight folks I see clothed being nude? If they were, in time we would get used to them, too!

Making your argument about scantly clad dressers moot. Because if we could get used to folks running around naked, we could certainly get used to trans if they could be seen everywhere. Then, why would a few inappropriately clad dressers turn more heads than similarly dressed GG's? I say they WOULDN'T!

[grace7777]

Just because someone is offended does not make the way someone is dressed illegal. If laws were based on someone being offended, there would be no end to who could be cited. Some people get offended very easily.

As this nudity, there are laws against being nude in public. People are expected to cover up certain parts of their body. How someone covers it up is generally up to them.

[Charlotte7]

Victim blaming is never correct as it gives permission to abusers and aggressors. The fault always lies with the abuser or the aggressor. There is no circumstance in which anyone deserves an 'ass kicking'. To say so not only lets everyone on this forum down, but it lets every abused, beaten, harrassed, oppressed, and every other negatively treated GG down. We are all in this together and we should all support each other. This is not woolly, 'liberal' wish thinking, it's how the world is. If I present as a tart in a club and a man assaults me, and discovers a package that he wasn't expecting, that's his problem for initiating the assault. When he hits out, he's not hitting at the person who deceived him, he's blindly lashing out at his own inadequacy. That's his problem. It should never be excused.

Sorry, for the slight rant, but victim blaming is a red rag to me.

[Kas]

Nobody is victim blaming. It's a reality we live in and you cannot compare this to violence towards a GG from a man.

People (men) get their ass kicked for small things. I go clubbing a lot and I see fights almost every weekend. We may see ourselves as a woman, but the other guys see us as men and some men fight. We can all wear our ruby-coloured glasses and pretend we live in a magical kingdom acting like Disney princesses where nobody get hurts or abused, but like I said, this is reality. Maybe not for everybody, but certainly for some.

[donnalee]

I think there is confusion in this thread between morals vs taste and judgement.
If someone's choice of dress is not yours, it is not immoral to choose not to dress that way, but it is rude (not immoral) to comment on it. Your choice of dress is yours, but it should be tempered with the reality of possible reactions to your choice, ie judgement.

[LaurenS]

That is your liberal mindset based on feelings not rational thinking.

Nicole and Kelly: you’re both liberals?!?!

oh, the horror! Freaks!

Get back in your box, but keep that label on you so we will know in the future, ok?



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I go clubbing a lot and I see fights almost every weekend.

I would not feel comfortable in an environment in which fights constantly break out, femme or homme. I frequent watering holes occasionally - some of them kinda rough - and have only seen one fight in the past 10 years. These places are filled with men, so I am not sure about “and men fight”. More accurate would be “some men fight”, and I prefer not to associate or hang out with those types.

my ruby-colored glasses seem to be working quite well for me.

[Tracii G]

Being a roadie for a band I know that alcohol and testosterone don't always mix well.
I have been in literally 1000s of clubs and some nights its cool some nights you might be in the middle of a tussle that you had nothing to do with.
Fights happen outside most of the time or right by the front or back door.
Charlotte aggression is not a good thing and I agree with what you said BUT I am not letting the forum members down by being honest in fact I just might save a person life by making them aware its not all rosy and accepting out in public especially in a night club.
Look I know all about aggression I used to be the worst for it, I used intimidation, physical violence on people a lot.
You can sugar coat things all you want and coddle the masses but telling the truth and keeping someone safe with knowledge seems a more caring thing to do.

[Kas]

only seen one fight in the past 10 years. These places are filled with men, so I am not sure about “and men fight”. More accurate would be “some men fight”, and I prefer not to associate or hang out with those types.

Hi Lauren,

Unfortunately for my age group and my location, if you want to go out dancing to any kind of electronic music venue there is ALWAYS a fight/s. I have luckily not been in one myself but have been with friends who have. Drugs are bad.

Oh and I edited my post to say "some men" because you are correct.

[NicoleScott]

Ass kickings are all on you.

It's pretty hard to twist these words. It can only mean "it's your own fault if you get assaulted". You twist your own words by saying it means "be careful out there".

To the question - is it a fair comparison?
No, if the comparison is CDing to nudity. Yes, if you are comparing why - the internal drive that compels - to crossdress or go nude. And yes, if the comparison is to how the general public responds to each, which is eeewwwww.

[Krisi]

Tracii;

I seriously cannot believe you condone assault because of the way someone dresses.

Reading back through your posts , If a man hit on you and he turns out to be homophobic, do you really believe , you deserve an 'ass kicking' ?

Your statement basically justifies another persons right to forcefully impose their will over how you present yourself in public.

​I'm still shaking my head that anyone in this community can hold this opinion.

I cannot believe that you think what Tracii posted was "condoning assault". That's not what she posted.

The reality is, in many cases, people are treated by the way they present themselves. If you dress like a hooker, you will be treated as a hooker. Perhaps in your mind that's not fair, but once you leave your house it is reality.

Warning someone about this reality is not condoning it, it's exactly what it is; a warning.

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I guess there are two ways to look at it, you dress like a _______ so you must be a __________ and if someone does ____________ to you then you deserve it.

Or you wear provocative clothing to express your inner provocateur and people should mind their own damn business.

What people "should" do and what they actually do are sometimes very different things.

[Charlotte7]

Look I know all about aggression I used to be the worst for it, I used intimidation, physical violence on people a lot.

And, when you were doing this, when you were using 'physical violence on people a lot' whose fault was it they were being violated, yours or theirs? And why?