Will we always hit our heads against a brick wall ??

[Teresa]

After leaving the forum yesterday I tried a web search with the intention of finding CDers being natural while appearing in public ,hoping to see them going about their everyday activities. All I found was some very good looking ones totally overdressed and behaving in provocative ways . OK so tried including mature in the search ,more of the same sort of images plus an increasing number of explicit sexual activities. So for my final search I tried transsexuals out in public , the images were more or less as before .

Before anyone starts replying with suitable sites I could search , that would be missing the point . When our wives/partners, family and friends want to check us out this is the first thing that will be force fed to them . OK maybe it's a supply and demand situation , that is either what the public wants or mostly all that is on offer from the vast majority of the sites . The problem is how many of us have pleaded with our wives that we aren't like that .

I then checked out India Willourby ( hopefully spelt right ) , she is a TS in the UK who now appears on Channel 4 news.

I found an interview on Pink Pages where she very outspoken on mere CDers, the ones who can flit back and forth from business suit to floral dresses and still find they have the right to use female washrooms because they are " Trans !", She went on to say they have no right at all because of the pretence they are living . I was thinking how I could make some reply to that so went onto the reply page , "OH Boy " it appeared to full of people who had just digested the entire Oxford dictionary and were throwing heated barbs at each other without considering the full meaning . Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing as long as you know what you are talking about ! I don't claim to be the brightest bulb in the lighting factory but that was one area I wouldn't even attempt to enter.

I'm afraid the media has a great deal to answer for they have taken " TRANS!" and used it from every angle without considering what it means and what term should be correctly used with it .

The activist are doing none of us any favours , they are standing on their soap boxes throwing barbs in every direction without any specific target , the problem is the general public is in the firing line and they are getting truly pissed off with the whole movement .

I was hoping to come out fully in the next few week , I realise now if I do receive a bad response it maybe not be of my doing but the so called trans activist movement who claim they are fighting for our rights but in reality doing more damage .

I'm sure some of you are saying I'm much better staying in the closet , I know I couldn't exist there , if you feel the need is strong enough, take the chance by coming out to show truly what sort of people we are .

[Shelly Preston]

I think you need to remember that most want to put their best pictures out there.

That does not normally mean a regular top and a pair of jeans. So I think your searching for a unicorn........Well almost

[Stephanie47]

Here in the States there is an ongoing struggle over "bathroom bills." I will agree as with any cause there is a lot of noise made by a vocal minority. Sometimes that turns people off. However, if they were not out there the issue may remain hidden and unresolved. I've watched YouTube videos of crossdressers out and about town. Yes, their looks to not appear natural. The cause is not served by a domme pulling her sub attired in a French maid outfit into a grocery store. It can be worse if the computer does not filter anything and the porn sites crop up. Of course, there is a lot of man-woman, woman-woman, and man-man porn out there.

I've seen very tasteful news reports on television dealing with transsexuals of all ages. I'm sure your family and friends have passed transgender men and woman and cross dressers without noticing because they are blending. The best you can do is to present yourself in a manner which would not embarrass you or those around you. Just point out if you run across an aging cross dresser attired as a tart that there are many young women who also look like tarts. Is it acceptable to show negativity toward one and not the other or to tacitly accept one and not the other? If you do not exhibit to other that you feel comfortable, they also will feel uncomfortable. You will never be able to be acceptable to 100% of the public. I know people who dislike anyone who is not like themselves; African-Americans, Latinos, gays and lesbians, Catholics, anyone.

You're going to be an educator whether you like it or not. Are you any different wearing a dress than wearing pants? I think not.

[CD_DIANE]

Just to be correct.... Who is India Willoughby? UK's first transgender newsreader (As per Google).

There is a lot of truth in the last line of Stephanie's post.... you are an educator, just don't expect that your class will be 100% accepting of anyone.

Diane

[Rachael Leigh]

Teresa, well this is of course a subject close to my heart as I’ve come out very recently and am all but fulltime.
I do think there are some good examples of trans women out there, take for example the several women who were elected
to office here in the states, they are showing that we are real and don’t have an agenda but just want to live our lives
Today I did something quite unusual for me, I went to get my natural haircut but I did it as my true self, a bit of makeup
and all ladies clothing. The folks in the salon were most acommadating using my name and proper pronouns.
I think we just have to be out there be ourselves and more and more we will be seen as just people
Rachael

[Teresa]

Stepanie,
That last little comment is something I'm about to find out , as I intend to run my own art group as Teresa, it may work better in a skirt and top than in drab for me .

Shelly,
I was hopefully looking to find pictures as we see more on the forum of Cders who have struggled to come out and finally make it going about their business nicely dressed and presented.

The point I'm making is a basic search for people looking for answers to their partners CDing are not being helped by being scared by images which they fear could be where their CDing partner is heading . Sadly those images wouldn't be so obvious if there wasn't a demand !

Perhaps we shouldn't complain too much if visitors do see our pictures , on the whole we set a fairly good example of how most of us appear in public .

Diane ,
I should have checked the spelling first . She was regional news presenter who dropped out to transition and now presents a main channel news program .

Rachel,
It has to be the only way, get out there and keep in touch with ordinary people in the street . I had a conversation in a charity shop this morning, I asked the SA if she had coats suitable for walking the dog so she pointed me to the male section , so when I said a wanted a women's coat she asked for my wife's size , I finally got the message over it was for me . She then started asking me if I was doing a stage act, when i told her it wasn't an act she then started to talk about Cders and gay men . When I corrected her on that that one she then said some do have children , I pointed out I had two grown up children and three grandchildren , so she finally said so do you want to be a woman ? I told her I couldn't answer that for certain ! She thanked me for taking the time to expain because it was something she found very interesting . I replied I'm glad we spoke because I had just corrected another person on the misconceptions of CDers . It was one of those occasions that I wish I had some pictures with me .

[Ceera]

It seems to me that, by definition, images of "CDers being natural while appearing in public" would not be tagged in a way that makes it obvious they are CDers at all. I post plenty of pictures of myself on my FB page, going out and about doing 'normal' family activities, like going out on a lake on a friend's boat, while in my bikini; taking my daughter and our dog for a walk on the beach; flying kites together; dining at a restaurant; shopping at a mall or in a grocery store... In all of them, I am dressed and made up suitably for the occasion. None of those images are tagged in any way that would make it obvious that the older woman (me) in the pictures is anything but a cisgender woman. Nor do my descriptions posted with the pictures tend to give the impression that I am not a cisgender woman. You would have to go to my personal info section on FB and read it, to see that I identify as a trans-woman. Here are a few of those images. Do you think they would have turned up on any of your searches?

I am MtF trans, but not living full time as a female, and I haven't yet started any medical transition steps. I also identify as non-binary - I can switch back and forth fairly freely between male and female presentation. When I am out as a woman, that is how I identify. I act and sound like a woman, and I use the ladies' facilities when needed. Looking at these images of me, you could hardly expect that woman to walk into the men's restroom, could you? When I am presenting as a male, I use the men's facilities, because I definitely don't look female at those times.

Some time next year, my driver's license, birth certificate and all other ID will start getting switched over to female gender markers, because that is more accurate for how I spend most of my life in public - and use of an "x" for non-binary, while allowed in my state (Oregon, USA), does not yet have wide enough acceptance for me to travel freely with documents that say I am neither male nor female.

[Pat]

Interesting post, Teresa. I'd suggest maybe you're just having some pre-coming-out nerves. I can say I've been out and presenting full-time for at least a couple of years now and was part-time for a couple of years before that. The bad response you fear has never happened for me. Most people on meeting me don't drag out their media expectations, they react to me and how I interact with them.

I suppose the best analog I can come up with is cops. They have a pretty awful representation in the media and people love to say snarky things about them. But whenever I meet a cop (and I have to admit it's never been in an arrest situation) I've actually admired them for their openness and very live-and-let-live attitude. Some of it might be cultural privilege, but I find they aren't anything like the way cops are portrayed in the media. In the same way, I'm not anything like the trans folks portrayed in the media. Nor does it sound like you'll be. People who have never met a trans person will think of what they've read in the news or seen on video if the topic of trans folks comes up, but people who have met you, will think of you when they hear about trans people. So go out there and represent us -- be the person you want them thinking of.

[Kas]

I just did a google image search for, "Crossdressers in public" after reading this. I'm not sure if it's just your internet, Teresa, because the majority of the images (3/4) for me are not OTT or "adult" in any way. Most look very natural.

One thing people need to stop doing is using the word "Trans". That's because nobody knows if you're referring to transsexual or transgender which are completely different things. I find that's where the most arguments come up.

Edit: I just found the India post you were referring to. God that comment section is toxic... I can see what you're saying.

[AllieSF]

Teresa,

I think that you are making some wrong assumptions and deductions from what you have found on the internet. First, regarding "normal" CD's everyday pictures on the web. Most "normals" that I have seen here or met in person do not post everyday normal pictures on the web. One reason is that only a small percentage of us actually go out and more importantly, being a "normal" they do not have the need to post pics except for a few limited sites like this, or maybe Facebook. Second, the ones posting a pic on the web for anyone to see from a simple search are probably only going to post their best pics that make them look the best. The rest are usually the over the top kind where the poster wants all that special attention and porn or near porn type pics and web sites.

I do agree that people who innocently search will probably find more unsuitable sites and pictures than good ones. However, that is where communication skills are very important to be able to truthfully dismiss those sites to an SO as the bad exceptions are not the norm.

India's comments should be taken with a grain of salt, because most of the Transsexual women that I know do not think that way. Zooey from this site may think that way, but most like that, I think, are in the minority. People who respond to these types of topics, are also in the minority whether for or against what ever the topic of the original post is. Most readers read and do not post, so the responders may have strong opinions and want to share and sell those opinions I may read comments, or are just trolls who always seem to take the opposite view.

I use the word trans for situations where the umbrella term is clearer and also occasionally to define myself when talking with others. Since I am definitely more than a crossdresser, i.e. moving further down the road, I identify myself as trans or transgender (remember that trans is short for transgender as well as transsexual, so context is important) when coming out to someone or talking about the general area of our umbrella world. I do that because due to press coverage, trans and transgender are used more in the media and most people have heard or read something about this new (to them) phenomenon of an actual trans population in their midst. I use that so I do not get tongue tied when explaining my self with complicated terms and descriptions, which many of us here argue about, to keep myself from talking too much in that important moment, and to give the other what they need to know at that moment. I will gladly answer any detailed question they may have when asked. Sometimes, the term is just enough info at that moment, where too much info only complicates it for them. Very few actually want all the details. So, if you want to inundate the innocent with too much info, maybe to your detriment, then by all means explain the umbrella, and everything else. Biut to me, keeping it simple helps the person and yourself.

Regarding the activists, I think you need to be more specific as to which ones and why, and not insinuate that all or most are that way. Making a blanket statement like that can easily be interpreted that you are against all activists, which based on your writings and personal growth here I do not think your are. If you had said "some activists", I would not be making this comment to you. Yes, some may not be so helpful, but most are and have helped us as a group a lot. Also, everyone has their own way of doing things and not all will stand up and be counted when necessary. That is fine, as long as they support us and themselves in some way like voting and defending our needs and rights when then can. If you do mean all or most, then I am so sorry that you feel this way, as you blame them for your lack of immediate acceptance, when in fact, the general public have probably not even heard of most of those bad activists.

Please do not look for someone to blame, look for ways to make your coming out as positive as possible and realize that everyone is different and thus may react differently. Keep you head held high and move on with your life. You are the one who will make a difference for all of us in front of those that you meet as Teresa. And, please do not go back in the closet, you are and can be a great trans person out there in the real world that many here may never experience.

(I wrote most of this before some of the latest posts above mine. I had an electrology appoint that could not be missed!)

[Jean 103]

Where do you want me to start. Like you are not part of my club , you haven't walked in my shoes. These people are everywhere.

I know, you are looking to live as I do. You are way over thinking this. My advice is don't listen to people who are not living this way, they don't know what it is really like. Oh and I wouldn't also listen to people on the internet eather, but that's just me. I like to talk to people face to face .

I actually did this before I came out. I went to diva Las Vegas, I was told that is not what it was about. Really watch me, it is exactly what I did. I sat and talked to others about how they live. You get so much more information when you are talking with someone one on one.

There is no manual, it is a learn as you go. I didn't find a support group till after I had already socially transitioned. I didn't know that was what I was doing. So I didn't need or get support from them. I get support from the friends I have made. Just everyday people. I'm so much better off that I did it this way instead of using other like minded individuals as a curtch.

I was talking with my landlord and friend about how I live last night. I don't live in a bubble, I'm constantly interacting with people. I had taken the day off yesterday for "Transgender Day of Remembrance". I was going to go and show support but, I decided that it would be better to take the time to help out a couple of my friends.

I live in the real world.

Feel free to message me if you like.
Love Jean

[Teresa]

Pat ,
You could be right on that point , some pre-coming out jitters . I knew all that stuff existed , it just becomes a little more relevant when I know I'm going to be exposed to more people . I haven't had a bad experience yet and it may never happen .

It's funny you use the Police as an example as they recognise the TG issue in their own ranks and provide meeting facilities for social meetups here in the UK .

Ceera,
From your reply I get the feeling you think I'm supporting the comments made by India . I won't say it's OK for her because like most she has had a tough time , I was surprised she made those comments as she must have passed through the same stages herself.

Kas,
It's a big difference to view most of the pictures from our CDing point of view, but to someone who has just had the big reveal it's very scary . When we read some of the members threads on coming out and their wives reactions I would say some of their thoughts and questions are influenced by what they have seen on the internet, it's a very powerful tool but also a very destructive one .

Allie,
Yes I did have some very heated debates with Zooey , it is sad when an intelligent person uses their ability in such a destructive way , most of those I refer to are trolls they gravitate to situations like that .

OK I should have added some activists , but it is becoming a concern in the UK that the minority are having too much sway in the UK. I personally feel the situation is getting out of hand in some of our state schools . It's almost becoming more of an issue than the quality of the education on offer , parents are upset by having to answer question on gender when the child first enrolls . OK the issue is there as long as staff are trained to deal with it but some parents are opting for different schools because of their concerns of the style of teaching and subject matter involved in their child's education .

No I'm not looking at anyone to blame , it's my choice and I know it's not going to stop me as nothing else has so far, getting past my wife's DADT has taught me that , she was determined to try and stop me, now she is losing me and beginning to regret her actions .

As for all your comments about going out there and being true to myself and hopefully flying the flag for others , I can't wait , getting past the point of feeling of it's all wrong to believing it's the right thing to do is a wonderful feeling . I know at times it's not going to be easy but that's life .

Jean,
Many thanks for that offer I will certainly consider a chat with you.

I must admit I sound like an old record player but my social group was the best thing that happened for me , maybe my wife would blame them for our situation now but it opened my eyes and made me realise and accept this part of me .Talking to TG and TS members and their wives ,thoughtfully dressing to be accepted in a public place , knowing it's for real , I remember my thoughts after the first outing , I could really make this thing happen , it felt so right, I wasn't the least bit nervous . You are right doing it for real is the only way if it's what you truly feel inside , I always called being in the closet " Solitary confinement !"

[Majella St Gerard]

I just googled crossdressers and I'd say the pics were 50/50 regular and risque, and some sisters from this forum as well. you can't judge all CD's from a small sampling, just like with any other group. anyone looking to educate themselves about crossdressing I hope will use multiple sources of information. not everyone is going to like your style or my style or anyone else's, that's life. some people have to act superior to others and criticize others to make themselves feel better about their own insecurities.

[docrobbysherry]

Teresa, altho I agree with some of what say but find this post a bit hypocritical because u were looking for, in your words, "Natural CDers". As long as u r throwing stones I have a bone to pic with you. And, your desire to see pics of dressers out and about looking like blatant MIADs. Because, like it or not, that's what "natural" CD's look like!

I have met 100's of dressers of all ilks. Yet, I count the number of natural dressers, those who made little or no attempt to appear fem on the fingers of one hand!

I don't think the "natural look" is as popular with dressers as u believe------

[Kelly DeWinter]

I've also thought of this over the years. One of things I've noticed is that those of us blessed with smaller bone structures tend to fit in much better with socially with the non TG world and are more inclined to go out in public ( passing under the radar ) The only two places that I have been to where that is an exception is Las Vegas and San Francisco.

The other area I've noticed is that those who transition and who have smaller bone structures also tend to fade from the community. I've had friends who have written a "Dear Kelly" email explaining that dissociating with the community is the final step in their transition. Part of their transition is to remove as much of their web footprint as possible.

I can understand to a degree their thinking. Being known as 'Trans' for some is the same as being identified by the color of their skin. People want to be known for who they are as a person, not their genetic makeup.

[terza]

after years of reading on this site, my epiphany is that passing for woman is a transgender's must. crossdressers just need to be in female attire in all their alpha potential --women want that too. just because i love women's attire doesn't mean i suffer fools, or be a pushover --which is the stereotype of the female sex that they are fighting against.

don't let your feminine stereotype be a force against women. too many here has them, and it is repugnant --with the euphemism of "rose glasses"

[Jaymees22]

I don't think you'll find natural CDers on the internet or in the media. The natural ones are probably and hopefully just living their lives, not taking pictures of themselves or dressing inappropriately.

[Nikki A.]

I have to agree with the ladies here that say that things may not be how they seem. I know other CDs besides myself that dress modestly but aren't picture happy. I would never post any of them even if I did

[Becky Blue]

Teresa, I don't think a google search in this case will provide you with an accurate assessment, as what you are looking for is actually a contradiction. You want to find pictures of trans people and CD's who are trying to pass/blend so their pictures would not come up in searches.

If you have a Facebook account for Teresa, you can find thousands of 'T people' on there many many many pictures posted by many many girls going out doing their thing.

Take me for example, when I go out its always to blend into wherever I am going... I always take pictures, some are posted on here, many are on my Facebook page, 99% of which are only available to my friends there. If you Google me you will find almost nothing. None of my pictures will come up as they are not posted online on a website. Pics of me as a 'normal' Tgirl are not tagged as such (or actually as anything) so will not appear.

[Teresa]

Sherry,
No my thoughts were along the lines of people like my wife and family doing a search to find CDers not MIADs , we all know there is a difference . To me natural is as I try to present now and more so in the future. No I'm not going to use the word pass but acceptable enough to look more like a woman then a man . As I said in my reply to Kas , we accept the pictures that come up but to someone who has had the big reveal these images are scary , my wife hasn't seen me maybe it would be better if she had by her comments ,I feel she is totally misjudging what I look like or maybe it's just wishful thinking .

Kelly,
I guess I'm fortunate having a small bone structure , and face shape suited to CDing , it still takes some work and thought to bring it together, the lesson to learn and accept is I will never look or be 100% .

Becky,
I realise now that Cders like you and stick very much to pictures in selected areas like this forum , so this situation is on going , those sites deal with an obvious demand but they are also the ones that come up top of the list on most searches .

As Pat says we need to go out and show what we truly are , OK to some it's that word DADT again that stops so many being their true selves .

Jaymees,
I suppose that is the logical conclusion , as Pat suggests it could be coming out jitters . I still admit pictures have served a useful purpose in the coming out process .

[Kas]

CDers not MIADs , we all know there is a difference

Hi Teresa,

I think many people would disagree with that. I totally see where you're coming from and the point of your post in general, but you cannot say a MIAD is not a CDer. If anything, I would think when the majority of people picture a crossdresser in their mind, it is a actually a MIAD they are imagining. Well at least that's how it was for me before I started dressing. Before I joined this site that's actually what I thought the difference was between a CDer and a transsexual. CDers were the MIADs, TS were the men who do the complete make over. Obviously this view has changed after joining this site.

If you want to show your family/friends men passing as women, you should be googling transsexuals.

[Charlotte7]

Teresa, this is a question that I have often pondered. At the moment I don't go out. I don't make an effort to pass. I'm sure that if I did then I would apeear as a more feminine versin of me, not a totally passable female but a male that has made the effort. In my mind I see this as a mid point and it's where I'd like to see society move. I've mentioned them both before because I think that they are both very good examples, in a UK context, so I'd point you towards both the artist Grayson Perry and the commedian Eddie Izzard. Grayson Perry is more 'out there' with his dressing but Eddie Izzard presents in a more conservative way, though I've never known Eddie Izzard to use any other name. The reason that I think that these two are good is that they are out there, in the mainstream media and they 'normalise' deessing in many people's minds. That is what we ultimately need, for cross dressing to become normal, that's not to say everyone doing it, but for the public to see a mannish looking woman (in this context I mean a non fully passing CD, not a GG) and accept her as she presents. What we have now, as you have pointed out are the two extremes, those who pass and those who appear on your google searches. I congratulate those who pass and wish them all the best. I admire their confidence and affiŕm their place in the world. However, the fact that are so very good at it also provides a slight problemette for those of us who are less passable. They set the bar very high, but in passing as they do, they are, as they quite rightly desire, invisible to society. And therein lies the rub. But, progress is being made. Trans issues are talked about in the media on a regular basis and so we are more visible as a group that way, and the world is very different for young people growing up. Teresa, you mention education, I don't know if you've read the recent c of e report, 'Valuing all of God's Children',. I'm not religious myself but I think that it's a good starting point and if we can raise the next generations to be more accepting of difference then that can only be a good thing. Finally, maybe you could try restricting your google searches to news feeds. You might find the more positive stories that you seek.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I imagine you're talking about coming out firstly to a group of people who already know you, in which case they will load any judgement with the (hopefully) positive feelings they have for you.

But if you're talking about advertising for people to join an art group, you'll be facing strangers, and inevitably some are going to arrive at your door with baggage. Reactions for many will depend on how you present yourself, and I imagine you present yourself very well - I'm talking persona as well as appearance. But sooner or later someone may arrive who can't handle you; whose head is so poisoned that there's only room for hate, and I'm sure you've thought a lot about how that might go.

My advice is to be relentlessly positive, to expect the best of people, and I'll bet you get very few arrivals who don't respond positively - even if their initial reaction is a degree of surprise.

[mykell]

i think i get where you are coming from, i have voiced this opinion many times in the "us vs them" type threads, public perception is dictated by interweb searches, most will mot be doing a websters search, so if you do a search for transvestite.....crossdresser.....and transgender which do you feel better represents YOU when you search. i have always preferred the depiction i see with a search for transgender.

now because of this thread i tried everyday transgender women, https://www.google.com/search?client....0.l0xnCWVRDCs

i liked what was presented....more or less what i see in everyday routine existence....Others may not agree.
This was always why I could never understand why some are so adamant to be excluded under the umbrella term....

[Teresa]

Kas,
It was not my intention to enter an argument over MIADs , Sherry raised the point which I don't think was a valid one , of course MIADs are CDers, it just doesn't work for me .

Charlotte,
Thanks for you comments, when India Willoughby was mentioned to me I checked out her story but I was surprised at her comments on the " Loose Women " interview .

I'm not sure what angle Eddie Izzard is coming from , so I wonder in what way he can help the TG cause . Again Grayson Perry has a fairly unique angle on CDing , it's a look very few of us may adopt, again is he/she in a position to help the TG community ?

As for some of those you mention setting the bar so high , the problem is some of them are stage managed and some of the sites have been caught out by using pictures of GGs suggesting they are CDers .

I'm afraid I'm open minded on the religious element , being a self employed photographer for thirty years I came across many clergy with a less than sympathetic attitude , to me they had a product to sell and some sold it very badly !
It's not my Google search that concerns me it's my immediate friends and family search habits that do .

Nikki,
You must be a mind reader , all these scenarios have passed through my mind . I decided a good starting point was to contact the SAA ( Society of All Artists ) they have been so helpful and supportive . My first question was to discover if any other SAA members were running groups as a TG. They did a search and found none but that is not to say someone somewhere is doing just that. I have sent them some of my pictures so they know what to expect and prove it's not a spoof . I received a lovely reply back offering guide lines in running a group and an open invitation to visit their HQ in Newark , Notts to attend workshops and demo days , either alone as Teresa or with my group .

The crux is how I word my circular and how I introduce myself , I intend to start in my immediate area to see what a response I get and then extend it further if I don't get enough interested participants. If it takes off we can go on to hold local exhibitions and hopfully sell some of their work . OK there will be setbacks but I'll have to live with them .

Mykell,
As I mentioned to Charlotte some are not all what they appear , they may not want to be included because they're not all genuine .