Does the #meetoo movement help to encourage transgender acceptance...

[ReineD]

Rogina, it's not a game. It's more about respect and dignity, and in some cases, self-preservation.

[Tina_gm]

Likely what I’m about to say does not apply to many of the people in this forum, but I do see how the #metoo movement will NOT help some TGs. I refer to the type of TG who behaves (or dresses) as if he or she wants to be objectified. I refer to the TGs who have said in many posts here throughout the years they want to be dominated by men or they want to be subservient or submissive to men. I don’t know if these were idle fantasies not acted upon, but if it is a TG’s deep or secret desire to be submissive in any way, the desire can’t help but come to the surface if only in the manner of dress and/or behavior - if not at places like the mall, but at TG clubs or other places where men who admire TGS congregate and possibly also where there are GG onlookers who witness the behaviors … and we all know that the behaviors of the few do influence how the many are seen. Sometimes all it takes is seeing a picture of a CDer or a drag queen dressed in a mini-skirt, stilettos, big hair, big boobs, etc, to have everyone in this community lumped into the same boat.

The whole point of #metoo is to give the world a sense of the magnitude of the problem but more importantly, to signal that women have had enough of being treated like some object placed on earth merely for men’s pleasure or men’s need to exert power over women. But, if some TGs are seen as purposely seeking dominant behavior from men, it could have an adverse affect in the eyes of the GGs who witness this. They are likely to think of the TG, "You are not one of us. You seek the type of treatment we are rallying against". It could also continue to give the men who admire TGs a message that is diametrically opposed to what #metoo is all about.

I also agree with Charlotte7. Most men that regular GGs deal with are not in positions of power like the Weinsteins of the world, they therefore do not have extreme power to abuse, and so we do not believe that most men in our lives are predators. Not even most of our male bosses, since most bosses can get fired for behaving the way that men in extreme power or moneyed positions can behave. And since many members here are seen as men by the women in their lives (their wives, sisters, daughters, etc in addition to possibly the SAs or waitresses when they go out dressed), I'm sure they are not seen as sexual predators in the same way as some of the men who have behaved sexually inappropriately.

I participated in the #metoo responses in social media and this was because, of the hundreds upon hundreds of men I have dealt with throughout my life, there were only three who behaved sexually inappropriately. All three when I was under 25. Saying "me too" does not mean that I and women like me believe that all men are like that. In my case, by the time I was 25 I had learned how to quickly stop men in their tracks if they began to behave in a manner that I found objectionable. I was never treated poorly by men who were in authoritative positions (my bosses, professors, etc).

I would 1st like to give a standing ovation to this entire post Reine. Spot on with every single word. My thoughts are in many ways very similar to all which you have written. From my perch, I mostly am in agreement with the #metoo movement. What I fear of it though is precisely what came about it from the calling the police upon a hug. the metoo movement I certainly hope is not and has not ever been designed for such a manner. It is about having and giving respect for women and people in general and not treating anyone in a sexual manner dis respectively and worse. To me there is nothing sexual about a hug.

There was a movie made starring Sylvestor Stallone called demolition man (also starring Sandra Bullock) set in the future where all physical contact had become illegal. I am truly hoping the #metoo movement doesn't lead us down such a path and when I see or hear of such a thing as someone being arrested for a hug, well that's pretty damn scary right there.

I think you are so completely accurate about how men of such influence wealth and power abuse women sexually, and that while it is seemingly everyone being outed for their behavior, in reality it is still a very small percentage. That percentage will grow, as it should, but in the end, that percentage will still be a small minority of men, both influential and not who will be guilty, truly guilty of sexual abuse or serious dis respectable behavior. Other women now will be able to do as you have, and be better able to deal with those who do, will not feel so helpless or powerless to stop it. And hopefully we will all be better for it, without having to sacrifice basic human behavior which we thrive upon and need for our well being.

[ReineD]

What I fear of it though is precisely what came about it from the calling the police upon a hug.

Right.

First we need to bring everyone's attention to this, which is the point of #metoo but which, unfortunately, is being done right now with some sensationalism given the titillating effect these stories can have upon some onlookers.

Next, we'll need to start the dialogue. This will be difficult for the same reasons it has been impossible here to come up with one overarching definition of "transgender". Every woman will have a different threshold, a different background, and thus will perceive a given situation in her own way, that will determine whether or not she feels abused even if it wasn't intended.

We'll also need to teach our boys to treat all women with respect at all times. A good start would be to have them watch this. A LOT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ

(Does the ytube BB tag no longer work?)


Last, we'll need to teach some women boundaries, like Char's friend who felt abused by the hug. The friend should have said immediately, as soon as she felt the hug was coming on, that she did not want the hug. The situation would then have been diffused.

[Tina_gm]

One thing I hope which can be part of the dialogue would be propositioning. That in itself is not wrong, unless it comes with a with an attachment, such as for a promotion, or favors or to be fired etc etc. But also part of the propositioning I sometimes see, or I should say have heard about from women, or read about in some of these celebrity outings, is the manner of the proposition. Ridiculously crude in many cases, but that it didn't come with any attachments. I think somewhere there was a few women that had come forward about Dustin Hoffman making propositions, crude as they were but that he had done only that. For them to have said no never brought any negativity to their career or whatever. Not the case with many others, and BTW I am not saying DH has not been guilty of that, but that I had read where some young actress had mentioned him only propositioning her. So basically just crudely asking for or suggesting to have sex.

Where we can teach young boys to treat women with respect, while seeking out a sexual relationship and having them learn to do so in a much more respectable manner, rather than the crude and objectifying way many men do. There is still a difference from some of the more heinous acts of say HW or ML have done in the past or putting their hands on a woman just expecting them to accept it.

In a much greater broader current issue my wife and I are having with my step kid, they are currently surrounding themselves with almost all negative people, even though they themselves are not partaking in any of the activities and behaviors. It leads them to a couple of different things, one, thinking because that is all they see that everyone is like this, or almost, and not having a better since of self worth. What my wife and I have talked about and are attempting to do is to have her kid surround themselves with less negativity. The biggest issue this kid has is with drugs and parenting BTW, and as we all know there is a serious problem with drugs to an epidemic proportion, but they because of who they are surrounding themselves with are not seeing the other side where there are still a great many good people out there who do make the sacrifices for their kids and are not addicts and are not living in such a bad way imposing poverty on themselves and their kids from it.

How it relates to the subject of #metoo is that we need to also understand that while the issue is now finally being uncovered and we are realizing it is a far worse problem than what we once thought it to be, still there are a great many of good people out there who not only don't act in such despicable ways because they are not in a position of wealth and power, but wouldn't and don't regardless. I also am at least weary of and concerned that this movement will take on a paranoia of sorts in that women will begin fearing all men are or are potential monsters, and men are going to become so gun shy for fear of offending women that we pull even farther apart from one another more than what modern technology is already a cause of.

[Kelly DeWinter]

The #metoo movement is not about Transgender acceptance.

It's history started 10 or so years ago when Tarana Burk an activist who was the victim of a sexual assault. Fast forward to this year when Alyssa Malano opened up about being a victim of Harvey Weinstien and started using the #metoo . Tarana Burk has gone on record saying metoo is about everyone healing from sexual assault " .... And it’s not just women, it’s men and femmes, and trans, queer folks, just everybody across the gender spectrum, like what people need to start talking about healing in their bodies, mind, and their spirit. I hope that the conversation doesn’t stop once the hashtag dies down.”

The great thing about movements , is they put focus on THE issue, the problem with movements are people who dilute the message.

Black Lives Matter is another example of a social movement that others tried to co opt by shortening it to LIVES MATTER

The #metoo social movement needs to live on as a movement against sexual assault ..... no matter who the victim is.

[Littleg2]

I, personally, don’t think the #metoo movement will help in this case. Mostly because if there isn’t someone in your world (the royal “your”) who is part of this community, it wouldn’t even likely come up or enter one’s mind.

And, unfortunately, everyone gets harassed. Women, Men, children, the elderly, the disabled, any and all positions in society. There is no one class, breed, creed, race, etc. that is safe from it. It seems predominantly women are the focus, and I can’t begin to reason that without saying something that I’m sure at least 50% would disagree with, so I won’t. And right now, the focus of the world is Hollywood. Mainly men in power using that power to manipulate and take advantage of women. But you know what, I am sure there are women who do it too, those stories are just not surfacing at the moment. What about teachers? Female and Male have used their position unfavourably and abused it. Business men and women? The list goes on.

Yes, it’s horrible, disgraceful, disgusting and should never have been allowed to happen or continue, but I will give you all one thing to think about from my perspective; The very first person this happened to, the very first female who was told she had to do XXXXX to get what she wanted, could have said ‘No’. She could have started that movement and set that precedence a long time ago. Obviously I am not talking about women who were attacked, raped, and abused by force, but those that “felt” they weren’t in a position to say no because they wanted what they wanted, could have said no. Then the next female the same proposition was offered to could have said no, and so on and so on…

I also think for ReineD to call out to the “type of TG who behaves (or dresses) as if he or she wants to be objectified” is out of place and should not have been brought up. There are plenty of women (GG’s) out there dress provocatively (“mini-skirt, stilettos, big hair, big boobs, etc” too) and have similar fantasies of being dominated and objectified. You can’t single out a few of any one group just to make a point. You can only judge yourself, what you do in life, how you present yourself and how you represent the human race.

-g

[Fiona123]

Interesting post. I'm not a hugger but I would never call the police as you described.

I think the me-too movement may help the transgender community at least indirectly. To the extent the movement resists our patriarchal culture I think all women and all trans women benefit.

[Michelle_G]

All groups of people have their good and bad. Unfortunately the bad usually gets the most attention.

[Rogina B]

Rogina, it's not a game. It's more about respect and dignity, and in some cases, self-preservation.

Did I call it a game?

[Tracii G]

Precisely why I will never align myself with a # movement or most any social movement.
I aligned myself with gay pride and I get railed against for being trans and not being truly gay enough to fit in with them.
Align myself with TG people and they don't like the fact I am conservative and gay.
I will remain on my own and claim no group to be a part of.

[Becky Blue]

Fascinating thread people, I would love to hear more of the back story of the hug, as it sounds so over the top, its hard to believe there is not more to the story than we are hearing. I think the #metoo helps trans people in the long run, but right now, i don't think we are that relevant to it.

[Tracii G]

The only thing the trans movement needs is for us to be out there. Being ourselves and civil to everyone and treat them with respect.
No screaming and yelling for acceptance no forcing others to accept us if they don't want to.

[sometimes_miss]

can we transgender types now look forward to some sort of validation (and perhaps even overdue respect) for not being that type of jerk, despite our somewhat (ahem!) unusual inclinations regarding clothing choices and the place we occupy on the gender spectrum?

While we might get more tolerance, don't expect any more interest or attraction in regards to the female sex. Women won't be any more interested in, or turned on, by a guy in a dress then they are now; in short, they aren't, and won't be.
Reason does not enter the mind when it comes to sexual attraction. Consider all the women who already date and marry men who treat them badly, but when questioned why they stay with that man, simply respond with, 'But I love him!' They can't explain it either. They just go with what they feel. And there is no feeling of attraction in women towards crossdressers or transgender MTF's.

[ReineD]

Rogina, yes you did in the 8th line of your post, a power game. It's not about a power game. It's about demanding respect and the other things I mentioned from these men.

Some men do have power games among themselves if they vie for the same thing, as do some women among themselves, but the two sexes have been socialized so differently that neither one is on the same footing when it comes to power. Both men and women each have their own areas of strengths and weaknesses, their own ways of looking at and handling issues.

In relationship dynamics where there is no sexual abuse (between most male/female friends, coworkers, boss/employee, etc), there is no struggle for sexual power. It's not at issue. And so there should be no struggle between women and the men like Weinstein and others like him. These men need to simply stop doing what they do. But, if some of these men think that stopping the abuse means that they lose power, it's all on them. Women (and I dare say most men) don't at all seek to obtain that type of power.

[Vickie_CDTV]

While we might get more tolerance, don't expect any more interest or attraction in regards to the female sex. Women won't be any more interested in, or turned on, by a guy in a dress then they are now; in short, they aren't, and won't be. Reason does not enter the mind when it comes to sexual attraction.

That is a sad truth. As bad as some cis men may get, we will never been seen as an alternative. There isn't going to be a sudden interest in feminine/sensitive/non-gender conforming men. Nature is what it is.

[char GG]

@ Becky Blue
I didn't leave much out. The venue was an LGBTQ center where there was a transgender meeting going on in a back room - (probably 20 people including a facilitator in the TG meeting). My SO was there to change his clothes in one of the center's restrooms. I was waiting in the lobby area. Not sure what happened in the actual TG meeting, I just witnessed the hug in the waiting area. The huggee did not seem pull away or stop the hugger at the time. Then I witnessed the huggee go to the director of the center (who had come into the the waiting area) to complain. The director said that since it was a complaint involving touching, he was obligated to contact the police. I witnessed the police come, take some preliminary statements from the huggee, then both the hugger and huggee went with the police into a separate room so they could give statements. Not sure if there were actual charges filed, not sure if there were apologies, not sure of the final outcome. It was just a very strange thing to witness.

There is probably more to the story, maybe something that had gone on during the meeting, but I would only be speculating about that.

[Tracii G]

Obligated to call the police? Really? Hugging is not a crime now is it?
The director could have worked it out between the two I am pretty sure.
The one that complained is just too overly sensitive and needs to grow up.
Personally if I saw that kind of response to a hug I would walk out of that group and never go back.

[LilSissyStevie]

The other day my wife said, "No one ever sexually harassed me at work. What's wrong with me?" She was being facetious, of course. But I had to remind her that it was probably because she was the harasser. After all, she was my supervisor when we started dating and she wasn't subtle about her attraction. What was I supposed to do? I didn't want to get a bad review! My situation is an anomaly, though. I'll never be accused of sexual harassment because women scared the crap out of me. If I found a woman attractive, I could barely talk to her. Women (not all of course) were strangely attracted to me when I was younger. The young ones would just be flirty until I didn't show any interest but the older ones were like "if I were twenty years younger, I'd tear you up." If I were a Real Man™, I could have cleaned up in the sex department but the attention just increased my anxiety. I felt that I would never be able to perform up to their expectations. Maybe I can sue and get some cold hard cash for being a wimp. I don't see how the #metoo movement could help someone like me. I absolutely depended on women to act "inappropriately" or I would have never got laid.

[Tracii G]

I would love to sue some elderly millionaire for mistaking me for a woman and pinching my butt.
Or for saying hello Miss are you having a lovely day then complaining he mis gendered me because I have a male member.
Thats how ridiculous all this #Me too stuff is.
Will it help TG people you ask? No I don't see it helping anything for anyone except for attorneys perhaps.

[char GG]

@Tracii G
Yep, I totally agree with you. I was totally appalled by the entire incident. If I hadn't had the front row seat, I would not have believed it!

[Tracii G]

Not only is it silly its opening up room for false accusations and outright lies that cannot be proven true or false in a lot of cases.
If it happened 10 to 15 years earlier the burden of proof is much harder I'm sure.
Money or expectation of a settlement shows they filed the complaint for monetary reasons which is basically blackmail.

[Becky Blue]

@Char, sorry I wasn't saying you left part of the story out, I was trying to say that surely there is a back story between the two people, that others possibly don't know about. It seems so totally over the top to even complain given as you said there was no pull away...

[ReineD]

Thats how ridiculous all this #Me too stuff is.

Ridiculous?

You weren't socialized as a female. You're in no position to invalidate the experiences of millions of women who have been negatively impacted by sexual harassment.

Here's a taste of how it feels:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...d-the-incident

[Kelly DeWinter]

Tracii G

Sexual assault is not ridiculous, We live in an age now where women have access to venues to give voice to the things like assault that did not exist 30 years ago. I grew up in a home where my Father was abusive to my Mom. There were no women's shelters, domestic violence programs or even a local police officer who would file charges against my father.

The fact that so many women are giving voice to assaults and the men are inmost cases admitting their complicity must tell you that #metoo is NOT ridiculous.

[Tracii G]

Sorry Reine that site won't open for me so I have no idea what is in the article.
Kelly I am not saying sexual assault is ridiculous because it is not and it is against the law. Women have always had the right to speak up but chose not to for whatever reason have they not?
I am glad women are speaking up and these guys are being shown for the scum they are.
You all are reading me all wrong because you have been conditioned to hate conservative people so thanks for not letting me have my opinion.
Oh and I have been sexually assaulted by more than one female so please don't act like I don't know how that "feels".
My point is the # me too opens up all kinds of possibly false claims that happened many years ago so the facts have had years to get clouded over time.