Why Push The Envelop? Rethinking my Plan

[Sarasometimes]

I another post I in the clothing section I mentioned that I'm goingto a barre class in women's tanks and leggings and that they are rather sedate but that I hoped to make a stronger statement with either print or shiny leggings but I'm now rethinking this.
Last weeekend I started to think what my motivation is to push it. I came to the conclusion that if I push it and all is still great will I not still feel the need to go further. Right now I go to class dressed as I like and without any apprehension, but ready to enjoy this difficult workout in a pleasant environment doing typically graceful and feminine movements. I'm confident that nearly everyone is aware that i'm wearing women's clothes but they don't seem to have an issue with it as it is now. If i push it and things change, what have I gained? If I push it and they seem fine. what have I gained?
I have been felt to feel very welcomed by both my classmates and of course the staff. In fact yesterday a regular started a nice conversation with me about the class and how challenging it was when she first started (she has come to over 100 classes and is really strong and her technique is near perfect) which was very encouraging. A bit later another member came in wearing the exact same shiny leggings I planned to wear in the future. She ended up next to me during a part of class and it got me thinking how would I have felt if we were wearing the same leggings. I think I would have felt very self-consciense and my focus would have been affected. And two things could have resulted, she could have complemented me on also having great taste or said nothing.
My conclusion is, that since all is good now, I'm not hiding I'm just not being overly obvious and I'm accepted as I appear, why push it just to see where it might lead. I need to dress to meet my needs and no one elses.

[Jean 103]

Either you are out or not. Living in the gray area is not necessarily a bad thing. The more people get to know you the less they will care what you are wearing, that is if they care in the first place.

twinsies, is what I have said, but than I knew the person.

You are right, the more wild things, prints in your case, you wear, the more that will become the norm. It can even get to the point that it is expected, as it is with me.

Then what is your end goal? With what you have said I'm sure they don't see you as a regular guy. Do you care?

[docrobbysherry]

Great post, Sara! It hilites the reason why I prefer to dress at home, in private. All that thinking and worrying about how others will react to what you're wearing and worries about how you'll feel dealing with them.

If I dress the way I want out, I know folks won't approve. Heck, some of my dresser friends won't!
But at home, I can dress entirely for myself. Relaxed and confident! With not a thot or concern about what anyone else thinks!

By the way, I'm jealous of your ballet class and I'd wear the shiny tites. They sound exciting!

[Maria 60]

That's a question I've been trying to answer myself, it's so easy I have an accepting wife. All I have to do is keep it inside and I could probably enjoy a life time of dressing, but no I have to push the envelope as you say. This morning 6 o'clock I'm fully dressed and going for a drive, I sit here now asking the same question, did I really need to go out this morning, is it making any differents if I didn't go. I took a big chance did I need to take that chance of being seen, is this what I really want?
All I can say is if you can control it, it's in your best interest to not push the limits and try to enjoy the experience your having, instead of pushing it and maybe losing a good thing.
It's human nature to want more, if we can control where we think we can be happy I believe we will have a better life. Just my opinion.

[Tracii G]

You have pushed it so far and no bad reactions and your choice of attire is obviously not an issue.
Why would you want to make it an issue at this point what would be your end goal in doing so?
You know you don't have to push it but wear prints on your leggings if you want I wouldn't call that pushing things farther just new work out clothing choice.
Pushing things is what guys do essentially its the male need to dominate so stop that LOLOL.
I'm sure they all think you are trans or gay and its OK with them so why can't it be OK with you?

[ellbee]

Sara,

As you know, I own *sooo* many freakin' pairs of fashion leggings & work-out tights, it ain't even funny. I should count them up someday, but I estimate maybe around 130-140, at the moment?

IOW, a lot!! And I ain't done yet. It's pretty ridiculous, really. But whatever, LOL. It's what I truly love, for all kinds of reasons.


Anyway, obviously those run the full spectrum in terms of colors, prints, styles & fabrics. From the basic black matte ones, to the ultra-femmy ones that many GG's wouldn't dare to wear.

And you know what? Depending on my mood, confidence & the situation, I really do like them all & think they're awesome, each in their individual way! And as such, I feel like I have every right to wear them, each & every pair. Basically, they're just tight stretchy things you wear on your lower-half. Big deal... Really shouldn't matter to anyone. And yet, I do struggle with wearing some pairs in guy-mode while running errands out & about in public... So much so, that I don't even attempt it with certain ones. Which is a shame, really.

Obviously I don't like that. Part of it is me, holding myself back -- and part of it is society, holding me back. However, I do enjoy the "challenge" of it all. Sometimes, I want to be able to prove to myself that it can be done. Furthermore, I also want people's perceptions to change, for the better. Why? Because not only will it be easier for me, but it also helps in a small way to set the stage for others to do so, as well. (And that goes for GG's & CD'ers, alike! ) Hey, non-CD'ing males are also free to wear the men's versions, too, which has been slowly catching on a bit... Maybe I can help inspire them a little, while I'm at it?


So, yeah... Sometimes I do "push" myself when it comes to this. It's important to me that I do. Not for everyone? That's totally fine & understandable. And no, I honestly don't feel like I'm some sort of leading trail-blazer... Just that I'm simply a tiny part of a larger movement. Heck, even some GG's out there openly recognize that when it comes to fashion/clothing/presentation choices, men kinda get screwed. But the only way to really get from point A to point B, is to do a bit of traveling.


Anyway, I do want to touch on this...

A bit later another member came in wearing the exact same shiny leggings I planned to wear in the future. She ended up next to me during a part of class and it got me thinking how would I have felt if we were wearing the same leggings. I think I would have felt very self-consciense and my focus would have been affected. And two things could have resulted, she could have complemented me on also having great taste or said nothing.

While your thoughts/feelings are certainly understandable, I really don't think it's much of a big deal, honestly. It's not like you're both at some important black-tie function, and you're wearing the same exact formal dress/gown. It's just some leggings -- at a barre class!

Seriously, I think it would be kind of funny & surreal, in a good way.

A couple times in the past, I've experienced the physically-close (like, within literally a few feet!) "twin-sies" effect with different GG-strangers, while out & about in guy-mode. And I'm talking like the whole multi-piece outfit! Really, I was just thinking to myself at the time, "Well, obviously I must be doing something right, because she looks cute as heck in that -- and apparently we both have a keen sense of style! "


What *I* would do, if I were in your grippy-socks? Next time you get the chance, whether next class or 2 months from now, I would casually mention to the GG that I have that same exact pair of leggings, and that I almost wore them that day, too! I'd also add that it probably would have been pretty funny if I had, and perhaps then add in a natural chuckle/smile. Then see how she responds -- which I'm betting would be pretty favorably.

And hey, you never know... That one little bit of info could lead into an awesome little "class-buddy" situation!

[Teresa]

Sara,
Why do you have to question pushing it or not either you are out or you're not , as long as you are being honest with yourself it really doesn't matter . The other question is if you push more where do you expect it to lead ? I find the pushing is making me feel more and more comfortable with being dressed but then has to happen if I go full time .
I'm wondering if is more of a question of " Am I a just CDer or is there something more going on ?"

[AllieSF]

I understand pushing the envelope regarding how much, how often and what you wear in public. However, you do not need to push any envelopes for the general public. Wear what you like and what you feel is right for you. The more experience you have out, the more natural it becomes and more things in your closet become right for you out in public. If you feel uneasy, then ask yourself why. Good luck and enjoy.

[IamWren]

I don’t think it’s a matter of “either you’re out or you’re not.” Not at all.
It seems as though Sara has acknowledged going out wearing clothing that is typically worn by women and marketed toward women. She has also said she’s comfortable and fine with what she’s been wearing. The question is why was she thinking about being more overt, more “in-your-face.

Honestly Sara, I think your decision to continue wearing the sportswear you’ve been wearing instead of going in with the other is the sign of someone who is quite self aware and showing immense maturity that the general public must think, we crossdressers are severely lacking.

Not that you need my approval or accolades but I’m really proud of you for examining this and scrutinizing the “why’s” of it all. I think it’s an example many of us can use to our benefit. I know I will as I have been thinking very much about pushing my outward, everyday appearance. Like you,(and because of your very timely post) I have to ask myself for what purpose and to what end? I’m fine with the things I currently able to do that don’t bring on any unwanted negative attention.

[Jaylyn]

I feel many times and at my age I believe it is easier to feel this way and be satisfied with it, to just enjoy what i like to wear in the comfort of my own house. Age and maturity can do that. I really want to step out one day and see what it is like with maybe a GNO but if that should never happen then I'm happy in what I do. There is no rules in CD except be yourself but a lot on here feel they have to be out and about, or have new clothes all the time. Maybe we all reach the place where what we do is as far as we want to go. To me that is still ok. Be happy and find your limit then enjoy it.

[Jean 103]

There is a big difference between being out and being in the closet.

Men do not wear women's clothes. There is little fashion in men's clothes as most will wear the same thing day after day.

Being in the closet means you are keeping a secret form your family and/or friends. Really who cares what the public thinks unless you are some kind of public person. Still there is a friend of a friend thing.

I am out and run into my friends all the time when I'm running around town. It is why I always try and look my best when leaving the house.

[Beverley Sims]

You answered your own question.....
Why? push the envelope.

[Sarasometimes]

Doc, For me dressing as I have been to the 2 barre studios is in my comfort zone to this point.

Jean, I disagree that out is out! The point of my post is that I don't feel the need to champion guys wearing print leggings so that becomes a normal thing.

I don't know what they think of my wearing what I've worn, but many of them seem okay with it.

Tracii G You got it, why push it to push it. If I want to wear the shiny leggings for me then I will but that isn't the case now.

Laurababe, I think going out to a public place and being a bit obvious (you admit there are limits even for you) amongst strangers with a real freedom to move away is quite different than doing so to a barre class many times with the same women. In your story about similar outfits, (Mind you mine was the SAME) you didn't choose to start a dialog, but you are suggesting I do so?

Allie, I think we are in agreement.

Aboy...I fully agree with you and you put it all very well!

Jaylyn, well put.

Jean103 2nd post, I'm not on the same page as you. Just like my situation does match yours, the opposite is also true. You don't need to be a public person to have legitimate concerns about public opinions, ever consider a CD with children in the local school system? Ever hear of bullying?

Beverly, Yes. My post is for sharing, not asking if my discission is OK. My title was justto put things in perspective.

[Pat]

Tracii G You got it, why push it to push it. If I want to wear the shiny leggings for me then I will but that isn't the case now.

There you go. That seems like the end of the discussion to me. You do it for yourself. When you choose to come out to some degree (and I think there are degrees -- it's not an all-or-nothing thing) then the act of coming out is for you as well. It's not for the people around you, it's not for The Cause or whatever -- you do it because you have to do it for yourself. So if you're fine with where you're at, stick there until further developments.

[Amy Lynn3]

As one famous person said "if it anin't broke, don't fix it". I always feel if I am in a happy place, just stay there.

[ellbee]

Laurababe, I think going out to a public place and being a bit obvious (you admit there are limits even for you) amongst strangers with a real freedom to move away is quite different than doing so to a barre class many times with the same women. In your story about similar outfits, (Mind you mine was the SAME) you didn't choose to start a dialog, but you are suggesting I do so?

Yes, correct: I didn't say anything at the time to either of those random GG-strangers during those "same-outfit" incidents. For one, it was simply too funny & too surreal! I was too busy in my head, like, "OMG, is this actually happening right now? LOL!" Of course, as already previously mentioned, these were plain, generic outfits with solid-color pieces -- as a whole, we looked the same, down to the styles & color combos... But were there any unique/distinguishing identifiers that said that yes, these were the same exact "special" items? Nope. Not even sure if they were the same brands. Outfits like those are a dime a dozen.

However, *if* I were to ever find myself in a situation, say, standing in line at a store or post office or something, and the GG-stranger in front of me happens to be wearing the same exact leggings (with a unique print that identifies them as such) as I am at the time? Of course I would say something! How could one not?? It might be as simply as something like, "Hey, nice leggings!" with a smirk on my face as I showed off a leg, or something to that effect.


Anyway, yes, I'm talking about strangers. Who I may or may not ever see again. Also, employees come & go. So of course these are different situations, in that regard.

But let me put it to you another way... There must be like at least 500 employees where I work. It's a large building with a pretty open floor-plan, with different areas, with different things going, with various duties. We have different shifts, different hours, different scheduled days. On top of that, there's usually overtime involved, with either a longer shift, and/or coming in on our days off. Not to mention vacations, sick-days, etc. Meaning, I might not see the same exact people every single day I'm there. However, *over time*, yes, some of these faces will begin to look familiar, whether I actually work with them for a couple hours, or notice them off in the distance, or even just pass them by in a hallway. And at some point, guess what? We may even eventually *speak* to one another! I know... Shocking, right? Small talk happens, regardless of the subject matter.

Okay, so from my understanding, there is something similar happening at the studio? Please correct me if I'm wrong. But, say, several dozen "regulars" in rotation? You might not see any particular GG every class you go to... But maybe once every week or three? Maybe more often, maybe less? I mean, at some point, everyone there eventually talks to everyone else, no? And probably on more than one occasion, as those faces become more familiar? It's how strangers become acquaintances, and acquaintances become friends.

Furthermore, many GG's -- especially if they're wearing certain things -- actually like talking about clothes/fashion/shoes/whatever! (Unlike most men, heh.) And that also includes clothing & its comfort/performance/durability/aesthetics, as it's being worn specifically for some sort of fitness activity at the time... You know, because it has a special purpose.


Obviously I can't say for sure, because I'm not one to be finding myself in such a group-fitness thing, at least anytime soon, as it's never been my thing. (Not even in full guy-mode. ) But yeah, knowing myself, I'd like to think there's a very strong chance I'd say something sometime... At the very least, the next time she wears them?

Again, GG's talk about clothes. Didn't you even mention that there was once a conversation about snowflake leggings? I really don't think it's a big deal, in a situation like this, particularly if you toss out an innocent compliment (about the leggings -- not her legs ), and then just casually mention that you have those same ones, too. And if it were true in *my* case? I'd probably also humbly add that I'm "too chicken" to wear them to class. (I'm talking about me -- not you. ) Hey, maybe her response would be one of encouragement? Who knows...



Anyway, way too much rambling, LOL.

But the point earlier, was that it seemed a while back that you were hesitant to wear certain things in guy-mode -- even though part of you wanted to, and you were debating internally. So, some of us just try to share what we do, and how we may overcome various scenarios, in order to get to that point in feeling comfortable enough in doing so. We *want* to push envelope sometimes, for various reasons, and it seemed like you wanted to, as well.

If you don't anymore, that's fine. And if you someday change your mind, that's fine. too.

That's all, really.

[Tina_gm]

Hi Sara. This is always a hot button topic for me. I have stated before that I am not a fan of pushing or outing oneself simply to do so. There are some on here and other places that do feel this way. Some feel we owe it to the trans community to push the envelope. I am not one who does feel this way. The only thing I think we owe each other is a basic sense of respect and support. Our path is ours to take, wherever it may lead and whatever it is we as individuals need.

So the 1st basic idea when considering pushing any envelope or boundary should be based on need. Next would come desire, and then lastly to be considered ramifications if any. If it is a true need, then any ramification is simply something to be dealt with. Not if, but how. Desire is where ramifications need to be more strongly considered. How will it effect our marriage or intimate relationship(s) if we have them. Friends, family, co workers etc etc. In your case your exercise group.

From your OP it doesn't appear you have an actual need to go farther than where you are now. But, maybe some desire to. I think at this point, is there or are there any goals in regards to gender presentation or identity you wish to meet? Do you wish for your group to consider you more as a woman, or perhaps simply a man who is comfortable with his femininity or just not having the more typical masculine presentation?

One reason why I am against the out to be out mentality is that either by not having a strong enough need or desire, along with ramifications that pushing of the envelope would likely result in awkwardness and discomfort on the part of the person who is not fully committed to going farther. And, when they are not comfortable, it is all but a guarantee that neither will the people be in their surroundings.

Like you said, you can see an awkwardness of wearing the exact same clothes as your female group members.... For now anyway. Maybe in the future maybe not, should they grow more to see you as more of a female than a male, should that be a need, desire or goal of yours. If it isn't, then it is likely with your own distractions and or awkward situation, they won't likely see you as more female than male anyway (nothing gained)

I am not saying you shouldn't push it farther, maybe later perhaps, maybe not. I just personally wouldn't feel obligated to for anyone else other than yourself when and if the time comes.

[Sarasometimes]

Well put gendermutt. My OP post is about exactly what you wrote. for me in MY situation I need to take into account the likely results of my actions when I CD outside of my home. The first studio I went to I dressed in women's leggings and a men's tee, it was closer to home and all new to me. At the present one I added a slight bit of color and women's tanks and I felt comfortable as such. I had a slight desire to step it up but than i considered the outcomes and felt that I would prefer to keep things as they are. I like like the smiles, occasional small talk and the feeling that they in general accept me in the class. My desire to push it further is not strong enough to risk what I have.

[Tina_gm]

Being that you are in a Barre exercise group, which I am going to assume is predominantly women, any male attending the class there will likely be little expectation of the male being masculine (just my 2cents) They may assume you to be gay or bi, and may not care regardless. From my reading and learning on here, one thing I see often among GG's is that a CDer is in their eyes no closer to being a woman just because he shaves his legs, puts on nail polish and is able to walk well in high heels. What you wear to this class is not likely to be much of an issue to them, even if you were to push the envelope a little further, so long as they feel the reason why you are there is legit, which is to improve your fitness. Not to use it as a means of CDing for the sake of CDing. To push the envelope further would likely make the CDing aspect more likely. But, at the same time, getting to know you, you could in time dress exactly as they do, or wear the exact same clothes and they may accept you all the same. Then as you said, it then becomes as much on you to not be distracted by what you are wearing rather than the purpose for being there. What any of the female members are wearing for that class is firstly for comfort and ability to participate in that class. I think so long as they feel you are doing the same and that you are there to increase your fitness, that is the the important thing. Pushing the envelope will make that harder, though not impossible. Since you seem to be happy enough where you are at, no need to mess up what is already a good thing.