Problem

[Krisi]

For the second time in a few years, I find I have to do business with a person that I can't figure out if it's a "he" or a "she". The voice is higher pitched than a typical male but the body is short and not at all masculine or feminine. The hands look a bit masculine but the type of work the person does would "defeminize" hands over time. The hair could be either way. This person gave me their business card (I thought that might be the giveaway) but the name on the card is "E. Smith" (not really smith). I don't know if the "E" stands for Eleanor or Edward. People call the person "E".

This isn't a one time deal. it could last for years so I don't want to say anything insulting. Eventually I'll be able to ask the other customers but it would be easier if I knew up front.

My wife couldn't figure it out either.

What to do?

[Ressie]

See if this person has a facebook account. You might get a clue if he/she does.

[Pat]

Why does it matter? Call them "E" and focus on the reason you're doing business. Or just amiably admit you don't know and ask. We retired folk get an out in that we can always blame our age for not being able to figure these things out.

[Ariana225]

This person could possibly be non binary. It’s ok to not know. They might prefer neither he or she. Just treat them as a person and refer to them as the name they choose on their business card. They will correct you if they wish you to call them something else. I don’t know what else to tell you, just my best advise under your circumstance.

[NicoleScott]

Ask what the E stands for. Is E really your name or an initial?

Sometimes I wonder is such people are being intentionally vague, baiting others to ask something they can take offense to.

[Jaylyn]

Krisi I agree with Roberta just let them be who they want to be, isn't that the way we want to be treated? Sometimes I read post on here saying they think they saw another CDer, and think they want to talk to them. I say just say hi if they talk to you and carry on business as usual. We sometimes get over excited about things related to our CD'ing and want them to know we know what your doing. I've seen a guy in a dress before and he made eye contact with me in a mall once I smiled and just kept walking. That's his business not mine. That's the way I see it. If E is looking to visit then by all means visit with her/ him but I wouldn't be the one to start the conversation.

[Krisi]

A lot of people on this forum seem to be intentionally vague, at least in their clothing and shoes. And they brag about it here. The person made a point of being called "E". Name or initial, I don't know.

As for not knowing, that's a problem in real situations. Imagine this phone call:

Me: "Is E there?"

Person on the phone: "No"

Me: "When will ____ return?"

I can't say "he" and I can't say "she". It's pretty awkward to say "When will E return?" after I've just used his/her name in the conversation.

And no, you don't walk up to someone and ask them if they are male or female. At least where I live or have lived. Remember I said I would likely be doing business with this person for years and I don't want to start off on the wrong foot.

I should add that this person is in a traditionally male position but that doesn't really mean anything these days.

[CONSUELO]

I don't see what the problem is. Does it really matter that you know exactly the sex of the person? Perhaps they are truly androgynous. Why not just ask the person how they would like to be addressed?

[Princess Chantal]

I usually use the words “they” or “their” in those types of situations

*addition* Just like consuelo had just done

[Cheryl T]

Ask the person for their first name.

[Micki_Finn]

“They” “their” has become accepted gender neutral pronoun in a lot of style manuals if that helps at all. Or you could have a friend call and pretend to be a telemarketer asking for “Mr Smith” and see if they get corrected but that sounds a bit like the Lucy route.

[Stephanie47]

If you're going to have a business relationship with this person what form of payment is going to be used if the person is buying products or getting services from you? If you're really trying to vet the person try checking your governmental data bases for licenses, etc. Even if you find out the birth gender of the person is it his or her preferred gender? I'd be willing to bet the person has already confronted the effects of the confusion he or she receives in the course of his or her life. The person may be intentionally choosing to use "E" to gauge reactions of the people doing business with her, whether a buyer or seller.

[BillieS]

I can see it being a source of curiosity. But in the end, if it’s a business relationship does the person’s gender make a difference?

As Micki points out, “they” is a natural way to refer to E with other people.

[docrobbysherry]

Sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill to me, Krisi.

I had an apt. manager that presented as a woman but looked and sounded very masculine. I simply referred to her by her name. Never "he" or "she". It worked fine for over a year when she moved.

[Stephanie Julianna]

This reminds me of a recurring skit on SNL years ago called 'Androgenous Pat'. Just call this person 'E' until you get a hint if ever. I have to think he or she is laughing her or his head off in private.

[Ariana225]

If “E” is what they go by, then I’m pretty sure they don’t like their name and they’re trying to mask that name and possibly any gender associated by it. And when did it become socially unacceptable to say someone’s name in back to back sentences/questions?

Everyone, including you, on this forum gets to choose what they wish to go by. Sure it’s not necessarily a reality by what they/you go by... but we do it out of respect for each other as people. They gave you a business card that says E, go by that until they tell you otherwise out of respect.

I’m not trying to target you solely, I just think it’s a good lesion for all of us to respect one another as the human beings.

[Helen_Highwater]

You could wait and see which toilet they use..... err, that's not going to work either is it!

Being referred to by a single letter isn't that unique or strange. I knew someone who was always referred to as "H", short for Harry. Set aside the gender issue and simply ask as part of polite general chit chat.

[Sarah Doepner]

There are a lot of non-binary people who don't mind if you ask them what pronouns they prefer. It acknowledges their control over how they are perceived and can show you are supportive of their choice on how they present.

[AllieSF]

I like the approach to asking what the "E" stands for and then if the person is still vague ask which pronouns they prefer that you use. That is a fair, direct and honest question, especially if you preface your question based on "We most likely will be doing business together for a number of years into the future and you prefer to get it right now".

[Jenny22]

In the course of business conversation, tell E that you are completely accepting of LGBT people should that question ever arise. That might crack the door open a bit for further conversation.

[Pat]

Imagine this phone call:

Me: "Is E there?"

Person on the phone: "No"

Me: "When will ____ return?"

"they" -- when will they return? Totally correct English from the 14th century to present.

[DaisyLawrence]

"they" -- when will they return? Totally correct English from the 14th century to present.

Not in England it isn't.

Me: is John there?
Person on phone: No.
Me: when will they return?
Person on phone: Sorry? They? There is only one John here. I do not understand, sorry.

[Dana44]

I would just call he or she 'E' until you figure it out.

[Tracii G]

Pat wikipedia is not a good source for information when it comes to using the English language correctly.
Krisi I would just ask for the first name and say its for your records.

[Pat]

Pat wikipedia is not a good source for information when it comes to using the English language correctly.

Thanks for that tip. You should contact Shakespeare and see if he's aware of it. I'm sorry, if he WAS aware of it since he was writing in the fifteenth century --

"There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend"

"They" as an indefinite pronoun has been used for centuries. "Each person is responsible for their own notebook." is a construction that I've heard all my life though admittedly I don't go quite as far back as that.

If you like a more modern spin on it, try this: http://iheartsingularthey.com/

Me: is John there?
Person on phone: No.
Me: when will they return?
Person on phone: Sorry? They? There is only one John here. I do not understand, sorry.

I don't believe that's apples-to-apples in this case. John is a gendered name and of course you'd match the pronoun. "E" is not a gendered name so it's appropriate to use the indefinite pronoun unless you have personal knowledge of "E" which would allow you to use the pronoun they prefer. (See what I did there?)

But do you really think "When will they return" would totally flummox your imaginary conversational partner? I'm a little shocked.