A question of semiotics

[Julia1984]

Please excuse a minor diversion from the general trend of these posts.

Most if not all of us here would accept, if not actively embrace, the idea of gender fluidity. Most, if not all, would agree that whilst sexuality may be binary, or perhaps tri-partite, issues of gender are of a different nature.

We use the word "Crossdresser" in preference to "transvestite" with all of its prurient 19th century connotations suggestive of abnormality and "deviance". And that is no doubt right.

But "crossdresser" is no more than a transliteration of transvestite. It still speaks to a "crossing" and there can be no crossing without a boundary, no boundary without an implicit bifurcation.

Is it not time we found a better word? A word that both speaks to and reflects the diversity of the experience and aspirations we all share? One which rejects, implicitly, the suggestion that clothing is no more than a signifier of something essentially determined by boundaries?

Unless and until our own language and The linguitic choices we ourselves adopt can do this, how can we hope that the wider society will understand (and with understanding we must hope will come acceptance) that what we "do" and what we "are" is something infinitely more subtle and nuanced than that?

We are none of us the same. There are themes and there are trends. In our back stories and in our stories of self acceptance this is obvious to all but the most casual observer.

Is it not time, sisters, and brothers, that we found a new word for ourselves?
Julia

[newlybronwyn]

I agree the word crossdresser is outdated. It has come to insinuate something dirty and shameful. That's not the case anymore. The trans community is become more visible all the time and regardless of how you identify or feel about your gender I would personally say we here are all part of that community.

I personally identify as non-binary and very rarely present as fully female. I don't like wigs or body forms but will mix up male and female clothing in my outfits to varying degrees. I'm very happy with non-binary as my label for now but who knows how that may change in future.

One thing I do disagree with in your post is the comment on the binary nature of sexuality. I am mainly attracted to women. That's because I'm attracted to femininity in look and personality is just as important. Not what's in the underwear of a person. But I do fancy and have snogged men too. I do call myself Bi-sexual but my experience of bi-sexuality is probably much different to some other people's.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Loll!
Sorry, i'm not laughing to be rude, your's is a wonder post and I accept that your making an honest effort.

There was a issue of the National Geographic last year about all things gender and I think there was well over a dozen terms used to denote how folks view themselves.

We need a glossary; but then again on this forum you'll find a fairly large amount of folks who won't accept that which side of the store they purchased their clothes from has anything to do with their own sense of gender.

In fact, there are maybe a couple or three who may well be buying what are known as women's clothing and wearing it with their own sense of gender not fully being questionable.

It would be wonderful to see a thread such as this lead to new and interesting discussion, but my fear is that it will be yet another of "i'm just this" and one of those label blasting debates.

[Jenny22]

Crossdresser is fine by me. Its understood by the general public, now. Do we really need to change? we've come a long way since the days of (evil) TVs.

[marlacd]

Perhaps. I was never a fan of the word transvestite. It sounded too clinical to me. Sort of like a disease that medical science was trying to cure. Crossdresser. Not bad. Up until a few years ago, I saw it as a bit of a playful word. We did it, we were harmless as we did it. But, it took a turn towards the dark side. People started to label it as a sickness, again. Many new terms have cropped up about who we are. It's almost like we need to hand out a program to those who don't know how to describe us. Toss in some political views and terms that we really didn't need to really gum up the works. Then try to tie us with groups that were separated from us, at one time.

Now we have the mosh of terms nobody ever thought of a couple years ago.

Sure, I'd like a new term for us. Could we please make it a term that I'd like to own?

[Tracii G]

Simiotics is more about symbolism IMO or signs relating to.
Not so much a term of what a person IS.
This is an exercise in futility because there will be no agreement among the masses here.

I agree to your last sentence Cassandra.

There are already words out there to describe what we are and we sure don't need to add more words to confuse the regular people.
Adding or changing things gave us that silly gender pronoun Ze

[CaseyAdams]

I kind of like the term that Betty Crow (from "My Husband Betty"): trans. This was from a period prior to her fully transitioning. For me, the term has more flexibility than most of the other ones I've come across.

[Jodie_Lynn]

"But "crossdresser" is no more than a transliteration of transvestite. It still speaks to a "crossing" and there can be no crossing without a boundary, no boundary without an implicit bifurcation."

But is there, in fact, not a boundary? We have probably all heard the phrase "How come a woman can wear pants, but a man in a skirt....?" or variations along those lines. Until we, the crossdressing, transitioning, transgender umbrella community, can get up in the morning and get dressed in (work appropriate) female attire, and not experience any negative feedback or repercussions what-so-ever, then there IS a boundary.

I am NOT saying that the entire world suddenly embrace us enthusiastically (it would be nice though...), I'm just saying that until society can look past the wrapping and see the person inside, then 'crossdressing' is an accurate and appropriate label.

But the, I am of the opinion that re-naming something doesn't change what it is, it just makes some people 'feel' better about. For example, people are no longer "handicapped", they became the awkwardly phrased 'people with disabilities', and then the equally awkward 'differently abled'. It still doesn't change the fact that they are faced with hardships in day-to-day living. The term doesn't correct the condition, it only makes the condition more palatable. For reference, see George Carlin, referring 'shell shocked'.

[Teri Ray]

I am already having a difficult time keeping up with all the new "labels" or "terms" or "definitions" for what I have come to understand is "crossdressing". Then there are all the shortcut abbreviations. Wheew.................I don't get hung up on what you call what I desire to do when it comes to dressing and presenting female, being a male. I think we need to have, as a game show used to use..........."the final answer". Once we have the right answer I will use it. I kinda like the KISS philosophy (Keep it simple silly) (that's not how I learned what KISS meant but I am learning to be PC....well least a bit). I am thinking that I will stick with crossdresser.....Final answer. If that term has to change then this sites name would have to change and that would confuse me even more.

[Tracii G]

Funny how this subject appears out of thin air because the other day at Panera Bread a lady asked me what pronoun was appropriate for me.
I said Ma'am or lady works just fine or you can call me Tracii because that is my name.
She was surprised and said I thought you all wanted to be called Ze, Zer etc.
I said that stuff is foolish and I don't want to be called by those silly made up gender proper pronouns.
She said oh good because I don't understand any of it and I feel so stupid because I don't.
I said well I don't understand it either and would rather not use the terms.
I went back to drinking my coffee and reading my book so I do hope I cleared her mind of any silliness.

[Meghan4now]

Definitions of words have to do with communicating between people. Therefore a common agreement and understanding is implicit. You, I, we, could come up with another term, however the rest of the world won't have a frame of reference. I do not have a problem with the term, I find it useful and close enough. And for those of "us" searching, learning, exploring, it is a useful term to find other birds of a feather.

[suzanne]

I know "crossdresser" and "transvestite" are synonyms, but so are "house"and "shack" or "gay" and (insert slur here) One has a more negative connotation than the other. To me, "transvestite" sounds clinical, as if it were a psychological disease to be treated until the person returns to normal. But maybe that's just me.

[Isabella Ross]

Jack Molay's "crossdreamer" works for me, mainly because I think it really explains who I am. But you can call me a transvestite, a crossdresser, whatever you want. And regardless of which of these you prefer, we're all under the transgender umbrella. God, I sense a migraine coming on here...

[Beverley Sims]

Here we go again, modifying the American language.

The English have a word and it was used at the start of this discussion.

Maybe someone would like to drag out the glossary of terms that was listed here some time ago. :-)

[Isabella Ross]

Here we go again, modifying the American language.

The English have a word and it was used at the start of this discussion.

Maybe someone would like to drag out the glossary of terms that was listed here some time ago. :-)

Last time I checked, Americans were still using the English language...

[Helen_Highwater]

Pardon me for this but I feel the need to point something out. Semiotics is related to the meanings of signs. Semantics is related to the meaning of words or phrases. That's me being semantic out the way!

The problem with whatever word you choose is not in the word itself it's how the wider world sees those associated with it.

Transgender is viewed by many as being a plague sent from hell. While the more enlightened understand that there's a gender continuum, a fluidity, there are those who mock the idea and can only think in binary terms.

So whatever word you opt for, and I will say there's perhaps a need for something more suited than Crossdresser, something easily understandable, self defining, everything I think of I just discard as being not fit for purpose the only thing coming remotely close being Crossgender and I don't really like that.

[Rayleen]

As many variety of us as there are people, we are who we are and what we feel we are.

Have a great day

Rayleen

[Julia1984]

Thanks all for the comments.
I did choose the title of the thread with some care:
"Semiotics is an investigation into how meaning is created and how meaning is communicated. Its origins lie in the academic study of how signs and symbols (visual and linguistic) create meaning."
Words are as much symbols as pictograms. Without getting into a discussion of the logical theory of meaning (unless someone particularly wants to do that, in which case please PM me) it seems to me that there is a more or less constant two way traffic between "the world" (or rather what things there are in it) and the words we use to describe it and discuss it. All but our most basic ideas and concepts require language to refine them.
My point is that if we continue to use symbols (ie words) that are inextricably associated with "crossing" then we do nothing in respect of that part of the traffic that goes from the word to the world. In other words we don't do anything to promote the GF idea as a whole by getting locked into "trans" and "cross" locutions.
That's enough philosophy of language for today, I'm going back to my Wittgenstein.
Julia

[BarbraAnne]

While Transvestite is one of the original terms, and before that, Eonist, Cross Dresser is a softer, more acceptable name. In England the word was Tranny, which has become a derogatory term to most. Transgender was originally an umbrella term for all who don't follow their biological sex, but it has been hijacked by the Transsexuals. Stana,of Femulate Blog fame, has proposed the term Femulator, which as started to catch on in some places.
Everyone is different with different goals. Don't get locked into a name you are not comfortable with. Be yourself. You are not a term or category. Regardless of what you do, you are you. Be comfortable with that.

[Meghan4now]

Yes, Helen, I noticed that too, but just let it go.

[NicoleScott]

Is it not time we found a better word? A word that both speaks to and reflects the diversity of the experience and aspirations we all share?

Name one. What experiences and aspirations are shared by all of us? And how can one word reflect diversity? If there is one thing we have in common, it is .... wait for it ... crossdressing.

Look up definitions of crossdresser from several sources. They all define it as one who wears clothing normally worn by the opposite sex. No motive, no qualifiers, no limitations, no reflection of "diversity of the experiences and aspirations we all shsre". Just the clothes.

Crossdresser fits me just fine, thanks. You don't have to use it to describe yourself if you don't like it.

But Julia, if you want to replace the word, shouldn't you at least suggest a replacement?

[Robertacd]

Why get so hung up on labels to begin with?

In my experience the only people who really care about labels are the people that what you to know that "their label" makes them superior to you.

This is how we have gone from LGBQ to LGBQRSTUVWX (sometimes)Y and Z. Getting hung up on labels only serves to fracture our community. Evident right here on the forum. When I started coming here there was basically two forums and they were actually labeled M to F Crossdressers and F to M Crossdressers, and the off topics. But that was not good enough for some people because they didn't want to be lumped in with some label they felt superior to.

[CONSUELO]

Perhaps there is a better word for what we love to do and be but what it is and how it will emerge is impossible to know.

Unlike many here I am happy to refer to myself as a fetishistic transvestite as it pretty well describes me.

Tranny is a derogatory term as is homo from homosexual. A lot of meaning is put into a word by how it is used and the tone and context in which it is uttered. I find it interesting that the term queer which was used as a derogatory description of a homosexual male was subsequently adopted by the gay community and used with pride and a certain amount of belligerence.

I had a sister who was married to a man whose surname was GAY. He loved to introduce himself to others by saying "Hello, I'm GAY" That used to discombobulate a lot of parties.

As to finding a new and better word for ourselves, we can try, but English is a language that very much develops and evolves from common usage, so whatever we come up with will be thrown into the "mosh pit" of the language and who knows whether it will survive or be mangled and transformed.

[IleneD]

I think I prefer the term Garment Fluid. (LOL)

[Michala]

The discussion is about terms and some has been about the differences in the English language. A somewhat difficult language to learn because of all the different uses for the same word. Such as:
I sometimes Read Read as Read,
when it's supposed to be Read as Read.

Is it possible we complicate things more than need be?