False equivalence between Male and Female Crossdressing

[Eva Bella]

So.. I'm pretty active on Facebook and in our local LA community and I talk to a lot of crossdressers that are new to this, or go out very rarely, or are entirely closeted. And I often hear the sentiment that crossdressing is "unfair." As in women can wear things like jeans and men's button-up shirts, but men can't wear dresses and skirts.

I've thought a lot about this topic and I feel that it's a false equivalence for a few reasons:

1) There is a big difference between a woman wearing women's jeans and a woman wearing a three-piece suit and tie, using makeup to simulate forehead wrinkles and beard shadow, and giving herself a male name like "Steve." Crossdressers and genderfluid folks are clearly doing the female thing to a radically larger degree.

2) The clothing dichotomy is rooted in gender roles. From an early age, girls are praised for their appearance. Boys are praised for their accomplishments. It makes sense that women would have a radically larger pool of wardrobe choices, as their visual presentation is so much more important than a man's. It's a lot more work and expense too.

3) I believe that women don't "crossdress" in the same way that men do because they already have the ability to express themselves in wider scope than the traditional man. It's not necessary for them to inhabit a male persona to be "badass".. they can just do that as a female. Many people in our community (me included) are yearning to express a softer and more sensitive side.. and we find it easier to do within an entirely femme persona.

4) Point #3 is not to say that women have it easier and are more free. Quite the opposite. I think that women have this freedom because society still values them less and sees them as more frivolous than a man. If a grown woman wants to be girly and paint her nails with glitter and dance and cry, it's no big deal. If a man does that.. people freak out.. because he's supposed to be in charge of things.

Just some thoughts. I've been at this for about two years, and it's really given me a lot of perspective on how women are perceived and treated.. especially as I've gotten better and more serious at presenting female.

[Gillian Gigs]

The emancipation of women has been going on for over 100 years. The emancipation of men has never started because they don't realise that there are restraints on them. When one sees themselves as being at the apex, they don't think there is restraint on them. Women are still seen as being beneath men and the thinking at the top says, why would an apex person want to step down for being at the top.
I believe that if there was true equality between the sexes, being gender fluid would be meaningless. Someone who was gender fluid would be seen in a totally different light, they would be seen as normal as anyone else.

[NjJamie]

To some the ability of a man to crossdress and really enjoy the experience is somehow an 'advantage' men have again over GG's, just another example of 'guys have it better'! I will say I do truly enjoy my time not being the guy who is responsible for the vast majority of things though I don't think that deeply when I don't have to.

I can cause major problems in my house if I borrow an item or two but yet I'm not supposed to get upset when I find far too many of my things have been borrowed and almost always left dirty or not taken care of; reverse discrimination?

I will absolutely concede that the reason I borrow something (want to look pretty) is vastly different than the reason someone in my house borrowed my stuff (stay warm, not get their stuff dirty, "it was near the door", etc.) This brings up some other issues perhaps but I like the simple thought that it's just a simple piece of clothing and whatever reason doesn't matter as much as proper care and handling.

Great topic!

[Alice Torn]

" The times, they are a changin." For many decades now, the scene is radically shifting, to where the women are now equal in power, or MORE SO. mORE THAN 60% OF COLLEGE GRADS ARE FEMALES NOW. Single women out earn single men on average now. Far more women are strting businesses now, than men. I hear women tell me, that, "WOMEN DON'T NEED MEN, ANYMORE."

[Pumped]

I hear women tell me, that, "WOMEN DON'T NEED MEN, ANYMORE."

I wonder who will fix their cars, clean out their sewer drains and all the other crappy jobs that you see very few women doing. A while back I had some radical woman's rights gal beat try beat me up with the same B.S. I asked her who is going to do all the dirty jobs that men do now that you don't see very many women doing including working in a slaughter house, construction, the fore mentioned and so on. she quieted down a bit after that. Most of these women are after the white collar jobs and forget about the disgusting blue collar jobs that are about 99% male.

[Tracii G]

That subject has been beat to death on this forum so if you do a search you will find all kinds of threads to read on this subject.

Men are saying no to women all over the world and that movement is called MGTOW.
Women are waking up to the fact the old female BS tactics aren't working on men anymore. Women wanted equal treatment but are finding out its not what they thought it was.

[Eva Bella]

Women dominating college admissions is real. I think in many ways, women are better suited to Western-style education than men. They tend to work harder, better, and in a more focused way.

That said.. they demonstrably earn less post-college and certainly are a minority at the highest levels of business, politics, education... really anything. So, they don't have it better and they're not taking over. And while they're not necessarily working very physical blue-collar jobs, they tend to dominate the growing sector of service jobs that many men find "beneath" them. Not many coal miners who want to hang up their helmet and earn $18k a year being a home hospice nurse.

I'll proudly state that I'm a total feminist, so I'm all for women ascending to more power in our country, but the numbers just don't bear it out. I think that the statement that Gillian made before makes a lot of sense:

"Women are still seen as being beneath men and the thinking at the top says, why would an apex person want to step down for being at the top."

I believe that this is one of the roots of anti-trans sentiment. A lot of folks.. male and female.. just can't imagine why a man would want to lower his status and appear feminine. If a women does that.. then, yeah, who cares? Of course she'd want to. There's plenty of transgender men (female-to-male) but society as a whole doesn't seem concerned at all with them.

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

Hey Tracii.. it's cool, I know that we're going to be very far apart on opinion with this. I'm not trying to start a men vs. women debate.. it's really more about the difference in "crossdressing" between males and females. Why do males try to tap into a feminine side and go to such extremes while women do not? Why is there a stigma for men doing it? Just thinking of some points.

Although, I'll admit, I had now idea what "MGTOW" was and I looked at the website. I'm not entirely sure if it's a parody, but it's entertaining in a macabre way. The forums have some amazing topics like "How to Hide Guns from Your Wife" and "Why are so many women completely and mentally incompetent" (sic). Real collection of proud alpha's there for sure!

[Tracii G]

Coal miners in my neck of the wood make over $30.00 an hour approx 83k a year with great benefits so why would they entertain the idea of an 18k a year job?
Women make less only because they work less hours take more leave due to family and childbirth etc.
Every job I worked where women did the same job got paid the same as I did so I'm not buying the women don't get paid as much as a man for the same job.

[Eva Bella]

Service and lower-end medical jobs are on the rise. Mining and low-skill manufacturing is on the decline. A local coal miner might entertain a lower paying job as a better option than no job. But are often loath to do things perceived as too "feminine."

And the wage gap isn't as simple as different pay for the same job.. because you're right, there's not an HR dept that's going to willfully pay a man $100 and a woman $85 for the same work. It's far more complex and has to do with child rearing, promotion and mobility, and perception of leadership in males over females. That's a discussion for another time though.

[Tracii G]

Why do you assume a coal mining job is a low skill job? Do you know what a miner needs to know to do his job? He has to be certified to go in the mine.
The high tech machines they have to run and maintain? Monitor air level qualities run all the support equipment as well.
Coal mining isn't chipping at rocks with an pick axe anymore.
You have a bit to learn because mining is on the rise in my state as well as other states. People are back to work in very poverty stricken areas and that is a good thing.

[Eva Bella]

I have no problem with mining at all.. and I'm sure it's hard as hell. Deserves to be well paid too. I wasn't implying that mining is low-skill.. but that both mining and low-skill manufacturing is on the decline. High-skill manufacturing is improving.

Coal mining is definitely going down. There were nearly 200,000 coal miners in the early 80's. There's about 51,000 now. Pretty big decline. Whatever you're seeing.. just note that graph from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

I'm just using it as an example of a male-dominated job where said workers may not want to change to the service or care industry. Many times those men would rather face extended unemployment and all of the social ills that go along with it then do something that they consider beneath them, which is typically something seen as "feminine."

[Tracii G]

Some mines have opened back up since the election in various states so lets wait and see what the stats are when they take them again.
I grant you its nothing like it was in the 70's and 80's when I was in it that is true.

[Helen_Highwater]

Eva,

Setting the mining debate to one side your observation;

I believe that women don't "crossdress" in the same way that men do because they already have the ability to express themselves in wider scope than the traditional man. It's not necessary for them to inhabit a male persona to be "badass".. they can just do that as a female. Many people in our community (me included) are yearning to express a softer and more sensitive side.. and we find it easier to do within an entirely femme persona.

This in my opinion is right on the money. "Girls just want to have fun, "Man I feel like a woman", The Spice Girls, all empowering girls to be what they want to be. I can't think of a male equivalent. Women have been free to express themselves for decades. It's encompassed under fashion, empowerment, female equality. I'm not saying that any of this is wrong. On the contrary, equivalence of the sexes is long over due. What's not on the radar at present is a stated above, is that males who want to inhabit and possess traits traditionally associated with femininity are still considered less as a person.

Society is a considerable way off doing away with the gender stereotypes we've been familiar with up to now. That's not to say things aren't changing. That said I feel it's still decades away from the times when gender ceases to be the huge divider it is currently.

[Micki_Finn]

No offense but this topic is kind of a dead horse on these forums.

[NicoleScott]

Some blue-collar jobs are low playing but not all, such as mining. Discussions about declining coal mining and manufacturing job numbers and retraining coal miners to other jobs cannot be complete without the political aspect, which isn't allowed here.

[Tracii G]

Yep its beating a dead horse subject for a long time.
Women aren't CDing if they wear a 3 piece suit that is actually made for a woman.
That quells that argument.

[Judy-Somthing]

I still find it funny that when you go to a spacial function like a wedding most/all women wear different dresses in hundreds of styles and full makeup!
God for bid if a guy wore any makeup or something other than a suite that all look the same! Look at any time men dress up, it's a freaking suite in slightly a different color and slightly a different cut, DA!
Makes me laugh!
Seems like the only thing a guy can change up is the tie! Ya go wild. Aren't we lucky?

I've looked at men's suites and the differences are so subtle , like a slightly rounded conner on a pocket. you have to look close to see the difference.
Yes the subject has been beaten but it's so true!

[Pat]

1.
2. Much of what's being posted is stereotypes (of males, female and -- I admit this is new -- miners.)
3. And not really a topic for this forum.

Thread closed.