A quick thought on the passing question.

[Teresa]

I was writing a reply to Tracii, and thinking about acceptance , so my reply read , " People may read me as a man but I show enough female signs to override that thought and find I'm being accepted as a woman ". I guess that desribes the passing question .

We have to accept we can never achieve 100% , and we're fooling ourselves if we can, it's learning how to tip the balance to become convincing enough and gain that acceptance .

To ask the question do I pass, poses the question , " As what ? " It's a totally subjective thing , there are too many variables to give a defining answer .

[Helen_Highwater]

Teresa,

Is it more the case that we're accepted as someone who identifies as female as opposed to being accepted as a woman. As you rightly point out there are many variables and for those transitioning and taking hormone therapy and/or surgery acceptance as a woman becomes ever closer as time progresses as facial feature become more feminine.

I've come to believe that as I don't pass when I'm face to face with an SA for instance it's far less about looking totally female and more about presenting as female. By that I mean mannerisms and how you interact. A simple example is GG's are more likely to engage in conversation with an SA. I was out (Drab) shopping with my SO the other day while she was buying some new tops. When paying she and the SA had a conversation about how my SO likes these because of the length, the fact she has trouble finding things long enough........... , the SA responding with "I know what you mean, I have the same problem".... It became a shared experience for them. These are conversations we as males just don't have in the same situation.

If we develop that skill to be able to enter into this world then we're well on the way to crossing the boundary to feeling accepted. Looks ain't everything.

[Teresa]

Helen,
I found that out a while ago now when I bought a selection of shoes and boots from Brantano ( another shop I miss along with BHS ), I was in drab but when i tried on some peep toe heels she told me I lucky I could wear them as she couldn't . I know I could repeat many stories about shopping experiences . I did enjoy my latest one in a sghopping village , I'd seen a lovely LBD the week before , so I left the other in the cafe and went to check it out , I had a size 12 and 14 , yes I was dressed and made up the SA showed me the changing rooms , I slipped the size 12 on it fitted so well and felt very comfortable . I came out to see if the others in my group had appeared but they were still in the cafe so I asked the SA her opinion , she was at the pay desk with another SA and two or three customers . She said wow that was made for you you look great , I then heard a wow from behind me and an attractive blond customer just gave me the thumbs up, being a man felt a million miles away !

By the way the dress was in a M&S outlet shop reduced from £45.00 to £22.00.

[Jodie_Lynn]

Helen,

That is a ridiculously easy skill to master: just use your words!
I used to be the typical guy in sales transactions: present items to cashier, monosyllabic responses, pay and leave.

Now, since going out more, presenting as a female, I actually engage in conversation! And I smile. A lot! It really does make a huge impact.

[Nikki A.]

The way I look at it, if you accept yourself as a woman then others will accept you also. I've seen girls who are uncomfortable or dressed wrong for whatever they are doing when out and they draw attention. I've seen other girls who act as if there is nothing special about them, doing their activities and not an eye gets batted.

[Tracii G]

All thoughts expressed here are true and that is what I have found as well.

[GretchenM]

Years ago I was acquainted with a transexual who had an interesting perspective on this question of passable and what that means. I think you are quite correct in your perspective on this. Being passable is a near impossibility, although in all honesty being a size 12 or 14 sure helps. On the other hand there are a lot of women who would love to be an 18 or 20. Anyway, my friend used the concept of passable and presentable rather than passable and acceptable. If you think about it, the difference between presentable and acceptable is a lot larger than you might think at first. Acceptable tends to be more inwardly directed whereas presentable is more outwardly directed. Maybe a shift in perspective helps define a feasible goal we men who are also, at least in part, women can strive for.

[Tracii G]

That makes perfect sense Gretchen.
A lot of my ques I learned from a local transexual woman that transitioned 20 + years ago and she looks at it in almost the same manner.

[Helen_Highwater]

Helen,

That is a ridiculously easy skill to master: just use your words!
I used to be the typical guy in sales transactions: present items to cashier, monosyllabic responses, pay and leave.

Now, since going out more, presenting as a female, I actually engage in conversation! And I smile. A lot! It really does make a huge impact.

Jodie,

You're of course correct. It is an easy skill to master once you're over the rabbit in the headlights phase. I feel the real trick is being confident enough to initial that dialogue. To walk up to the sales desk and say "Hi, how are you? How's your day going?" Anything to start a conversation and let's face it nothing is better than a question especially one that is directed at them as a person.

I think what flows through so many of the replies is learn to be yourself, forget about whether or not you "pass" and just be a nice human.

[Julie Slowinski]

I agree
https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...t=#post4173835

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

learn to be yourself, forget about whether or not you "pass" and just be a nice human.

This is exactly it!!!!

[Shelly Preston]

Teresa

You can fool some of the people all the time

You can fool All the people some of the time

You cant fool all of the people all the time

All we can do is our best to put doubt in the mind of those who see us.

[Allisa]

I believe first one must first shed the male attitude and mind set, lose the fear of being softer and a bit more emotional, not an easy thing to do. Sure there are the numerous mannerisms and "tricks" to use but if you don't come across as an authentic person all you will receive is a polite tolerance. And once again there's nothing more feminine than a smile, from a smirk to a full on toothy even if no one else is around.

[NicoleScott]

Teresa, it's probably not the one you're looking for, as my answer to "as what?" is: a crossdresser.
I dressed up home alone a lot, but finally felt the tug to get out. One evening I was finally able to jump over that high hurdle called a threshold. Since I survived it OK and found it to be exciting, it got easier, somewhat less fearful, and more fun. I wanted to be seen but not approached, so I moved in and out of the shadows and always had an escape plan if needed.
On vacation alone out of town, I found a tg-friendly club, checked it out one afternoon in guy mode, and went back that evening dressed up in my preferred everything-over-the-top style. No problems, much fun. It occurred to me that I wasn't trying to pass as a woman, but to be seen as a crossdresser. After all, that's what I am. I want to be seen as a good one.
Funny thing happened while there. The club had different shows, drag queen and drag king, etc., depending on the day of week. A man asked me "are you here for the show?", and I said yes. I wondered later that while my answer was yes, to watch the show, he might have been asking if I was there to be in the show. I hope he was disappointed that I wasn't. haha
So, my answer to "as what?" A crossdresser.

[Teresa]

Helen,
My first stop dressed when I did the rounds so to speak was at B&Q, I had to go directly to the checkout counter to make a return on a faulty item so the conversation was a little more involved , maybe I threw myself in at the deep end from the start , in those circumstances you often get a backup of customers waiting while the retun is processed . Once I dealt with that issue Sainsbury's was easy even though it was very busy as were the fuel pumps, I thought Halfords would pose more of a problem but even getting the wrong item the SA was very pleasant and helpful .

Nicole,
I understand your perspective , we are all on different points on the TG specrum , if you're happy with passing as a nice looking CDer that's fine I know I'm more down the TG road than that . The point I've made before is the general public don't know and possibly don't care , I guess they tar us all with same brush, if we don't offend them too much they are happy .

[Julie Slowinski]

I’m with Nicole on this one - not trying to fool anyone, just trying to be me being me. Anyone has a problem with that, then that’s exactly what it is, their problem.

[Sallee]

I think the worst case for most of us is that we confuse someof the people. They are not sure of our gender that is if we are noticed at all I usually don't think for the most part we are noticed at all.
I know there are some times when I can pass where ever I go and other times I am read by a blind person at 100'. Confidence is the key hold your head high and walk on
Oh and have FUN

[Helen_Highwater]

Helen,
My first stop dressed when I did the rounds so to speak was at B&Q

It's funny that we talk about shared experiences. The first time I'd been out shopping enfemme the tenth or so place I visited was that bastion of maleness, a B&Q DIY superstore. I needed some superglue for my false nails and when paying at the till I was served by a guy probably in his late 60's, early 70's. It was obvious from his body language he really didn't know how to deal with me, it really phased him. The correct use of pronouns just wasn't on this guys radar. The funny part was on the till behind him was a woman cashier probably in her 50's. I could see her smiling, not at my expense but at the discomfort of her colleague. I think she really felt for his awkward embarrassment.

I suppose I should also add that I was still learning how to present myself so we both gained a little something hopefully.

[docrobbysherry]

Many of u r missing something here. You're confusing acceptance with passing. As someone who has experienced both there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE!

I've been out zillions of times dressed. Altho, rarely to vanilla venues like Walmart or Dennys. When folks sense or can easily tell you're not a GG, they will treat u according to their personal bias/attitude toward trans. Or, as their employers instruct them to do. Many will accept u as u present. But, they KNOW!

On the other hand, when I've been treated as a woman with no 2nd thots? Acceptance wasn't an issue any more! I was treated according to their bias for or against women who looked and acted as I did!

Passing and acceptance r really quite different to the people u encounter. However, those of u that pass all the time and those of u that r made, but routinely accepted, may not be aware of this!

[girlyman1977]

At 6-4 I have zero prayers of passing. But I do want to eventually be able to go out in a sort of tongue in cheek kind of way. Honestly if I can go out and have women out there be like "damn Tina sort of looks ridiculous but I would still hit it" I would call it mission accomplished.

[Rachael Leigh]

Teresa much like you say passing is something most here won’t achieve 100 percent. I’ve come to accept that and as you say if we can learn as many mannerisms that help others at least question than I think that’s success.
Makeup also is something that can work too as long as you don’t overdo it.
For me I’m trans that’s how I expect others to see me and I’m good with that

[Beverley Sims]

Passing is all about confidence and fine tuning the fiddly bits.

[Linda Stockings]

To one extent or another, I agree with at least SOME (MOST) of the things emphasized in this thread. I've been out shopping in lady mode enough to have lost count long ago. A couple trips stick in my memory in great detail, others not so much. I think I should not have been surprized when the trip I feared the most is on my record as the best one Iv'e had, and the one I felt most confident with as I set out was the worst experience I've ever had while wearing any item of women's clothing. I really will try not to be too long winded here. My best trip was my first one, ironically. Especially since my makeup was so bad I looked like a monster, most parts of my outfit were comprised of cheap garments and didn't fit, and my attempt at style was terrible as well as an awful match to the occasion. I suffered no harassment of any kind in the mall or in any store I entered. In a higher class boutique, the senior SA waited on me patiently, getting me the best possible fit in the skirtsuit I was looking for (still wish I'd bought it). I could see clearly that she knew exactly what I am, but smiled kindly and said nothing about my obviously poor attempt to present as a woman with any kind of success. Yet she politely waited on me with grace, dignity, and perfect manners. She gave me a very nice complement on my blouse (the only stylish thing I wore), gave me truly helpful comments on the suit she helped me try on, and showed me where I would need the waist taken in to get a truly good fit for my figure. She explained how having it tailored is ALWAYS worth it, and that almost all off-the-rack fits are only a compromise. She gently pulled the sides in along the back near my waist and showed how much better it would all look on me. She said, "now THAT'S a great feminine Iook and fit for you". She followed it with, "you'll be amazed how wonderful you feel with clothes that actually fit you, especially clothes that highlight your best feminine appearance". I was a bit startled....she was really helping me to look and feel better, and present with more "blendability". I had never expected such, kind, professional help; and I did remember that it would be me paying HER in any sales.

The worst time was in a mall when a plain clothed security guard confronted me with his face inches from mine, as he loudly, so everyone around us heard, as he kept saying to me "ya look great, did ya find whatever it is you decided to come out for? I know I should NEVER have let such an ass, or his comment bother me then or now. But it really did back then. I had been out shopping while dressed many times at that point, all without incident. I'd only had friendly, courteous, helpful smiles, comments, and treatment until that point. It made me feel as though I had just barely survived being through an enemy's ambush kill zone. It rattled me and shook my confidence. I think of that wonderful first time far more often than that single bad one.

[sometimes_miss]

Passing is all about confidence and fine tuning the fiddly bits.

Nope, it's all about having the right bone structure to be able to have something decent to work with. Five foot two, 100 pounds and slender is a GREAT starting point, and at least there's hope. Six foot four, lineman physique, very definitive brow bone, big hands, size 16 feet, nope, no matter how confident I am, passing ain't gonna happen, no matter how much I fiddle. Then again, if I could fiddle like this, probably no one would care either way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGCsyshUU-A

[Kandi Robbins]

There is a big difference between "passing" (almost impossible) and "presenting well" (easily achieved). I never pass, been out hundreds of times. I present well, and as a result, have never had a negative experience and done so many different things. We are often our own worst enemies, worrying about things that never happen and not living our lives.

[Sara Jessica]

The worst time was in a mall when a plain clothed security guard confronted me with his face inches from mine, as he loudly, so everyone around us heard, as he kept saying to me "ya look great, did ya find whatever it is you decided to come out for? I know I should NEVER have let such an ass, or his comment bother me then or now. But it really did back then. I had been out shopping while dressed many times at that point, all without incident. I'd only had friendly, courteous, helpful smiles, comments, and treatment until that point. It made me feel as though I had just barely survived being through an enemy's ambush kill zone. It rattled me and shook my confidence. I think of that wonderful first time far more often than that single bad one.

You should have replied "Is that you, Paul Blart, mall cop?!?!"

Seriously, the passing thing is overrated as I have pointed out a number of times. No one knows what happens in their wake unless you have a wingman/woman who is able to assist (something a dear friend of mine and I have discussed doing but never have devoted the time or energy to do so). Whether you get by one glance or two or three before being read as who or what you are, what is more important is that you do it with class and others will treat you as such.