A very challenging conversation

[Vale]

Katrina - you did well to restrain yourself.0

In similar circumstances I have had some success acting bored for a few minutes and then introducing a more positive topic.

Val

[ClosetED]

You did right, to not embarrass yourself and wife. It was smarter to focus on Harvey Weinstein as the easier target to support. One move could have been to pull the women into his conversation and let them also knock his views.
Hugs, Ellen

[Beverley Sims]

I call your action the Judas Iscariot principle, I have denied things three times before the **** crows as well.

It is often better to keep the peace and just say umm yes and let the tirade continue.

It is not your belief and you have no reason to defend it unless you are threatened.

I know it hurts and sometimes badly, it is better to have strength in numbers and valid points to air so there is no comeback.

That is when you can get satisfaction.

In the meantime just shutup and move on.

[DaisyLawrence]

No. Violence is NEVER the answer. I would, however, have walked away saying that my life is too short to waste 1 minute of it on hate and negativity when there is so much fun that could be had in my free time.

[Micki_Finn]

Some people deserve facepunches. Some aren’t even worth the bruised knuckles. From the sound of it, I don’t think he would have listened to ANY reason or argument, and you defending the community wouldn’t have changed this guy one iota. You may feel like you let the community down, but really the war isn’t being fought on that front. The real war is for the hearts and minds of the people who will scrutinize how we deal with bigots and hate like that.

[mykell]

interesting position, in past posts ive relayed this story of defending myself without outing myself,

while at work and such when this type of topic came up i would simply say say i have a "full on tranny" or "genderfluid" member in my family and as such i educated myself on the topic. this would usually squelch the topic and show them how bigoted they are, being that you were with you brother would make this a mute method.

sorry to see your family member be a get along guy with his friend.

[Stephanie47]

Amen, Mykell. I am totally surprised by many of the comments suggesting someone should just sit idle while vile statements are made just to keep the peace. As Mykell said supporting or taking someone to task for vile filth when talking about a group does not confer inclusion in the group. Should a person sit idle when vile filth is put forth against Jews or Roman Catholics (yes, I've heard it said for those) or Latinos (heard that lately?), and, I could go on ad nauseam. If you do not stand up for any segment of society who is show ill will, when your turn comes, who is left to stand up for you? To sit idly and not confront such hatred is plain wrong. One does not have to resort to violence or even raise the decibel level to confront hatred.

Grrrr!!!

[ossian]

KatrinaK: I had a very similar experience while visiting my brother and his family a number of years back. My brother was relaying a story about being disgusted on the appearance of a trans person and their apartment. He bought something off of craigs list and was picking it up and didn't know that the person he was buying from was trans. Here's how it turned out when I did said the following, "You know. If you swapped out a few words from your story like fa***t with <fill in a slur word for ethnic minority>, that would make you a racist. Is that the kind of message you want to convey?". My wife and I got thrown out of the house. We had to find a hotel. And, my brother and I haven't spoken in 5 years. Should I have kept my mouth shut? Yes. But, he was being an ass in front my teenage nephew. I didn't want my silence to be silent affirmation of his hate filled diatribe. PS My nephew and I still text back and forth, which is nice.

[Alice B]

Remember the saying...you don't spit into the wind. You did well

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Katrina ,Discretion is the better part of Valor/ AKA bighting your tongue. ..++..

[Sherrii]

I don't think anything you could have said, (or done) would have changed any minds here. You did the best thing you could. Sherrii

[Lydianne]

I agree with those that said you would not have changed his mind. At least, not on that day.

My strategy that I use at work against the broken masculinity type guys is I turn and walk away. As I'm retreating, I say very audibly:

"Actually, I have nothing against gays."
( Or whichever group's turn it is to be bigotted against )..

Or,

"Thank goodness we're all perfect so that we can talk like this."
( That's one is usually in defence of a particular woman or women's appearances )


You could not have done that in your situation, but another option is when you get the guy alone, you just mention discreetly: "I didn't want to make a scene earlier, but I have nothing against trans. Just letting you know." And walk away. I have used this one as well.


Now, this most likely would not have changed his mind, but he might think about it. Or when he's relaying his anti-trans talk to his next audience, he might mention this "trans-lover" (you) who opposed him, and you never know, someone might say, "You know, actually I agree with that other person". Now that would get him thinking... .

But none of that happens if we stay quiet. But there's still time to catch up with that guy.

- Lydianne.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Yeah, the dude was a mysoginistic, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragger in front of the 'guys', but then when he and the wife gets home and he wants sex, she says not after your performance tonight...…..and he whines and pouts like the little man he really is.

You did fine, you fully recognize how truly wrong some peeps are, and you made the best of it.
Don't take this wrong, but sorry about your brother...…...maybe someday if the right time comes along, you can try and talk him down from his resentment towards trans-folk.

Thanx for the thread.
Cass

[Teresa]

Katrina,
What difference do you think it would have made if they all knew about your TG situation , do you think they would have been more considerate or attempt to make the evening as difficult as possible for you ?

The other question is how did the conversation get onto this subject , do any of them know about your Cding ?

I'm in a slightly different situation as all my family know and also I'm now separated so I'm wondering under those circumstances how would I have dealt with it . Obviously a violent reaction is not going to happen but I think I would have defended myself . No one is perfect in this world we all have skeletons in the cupboard !

[Sarasometimes]

You can't fix stupid! Violence would not have been a better path, even if he got the worst of it. Do to my line of work I end up hearing similar ignorant and bigoted BS. I have resigned myself that work, which I need to survive is not the place to try to educate the bigots. My guess is that if you think back on their comments you will likely conclude there is no teaching them. Learning only occurs when someone wishes to learn.
Also much of their BS is driven from fear and when people are scared they can react unpredictably. Granted, I'm sure in your mind a nice snappy jab to his nose and uppercut to the chin would have made you feel better for the moment, the squad car ride...Would have made his ignorance and bigotry, your problem. Plus they aren't worth the risk of breaking a nail. Good job using restraint!

[Lygophilia]

It would've been funny if you have punched. I don't like people talking about annoying things in front of me. You need to shut them up in some way.

[suzanne]

I don't think you would have had much success had you begun a straight up argument. From what I've read, the best way is to ask questions that challenge his viewpoint. And that's a highly individual approach with no preset game plan. It seems to start with an honest inquiry into why a person believes as he does. Like "Help me understand...." You may feel the need to take a shower after hearing his answers, but that's how you know which direction you take the questioning going forward.

[mattea]

It is so sad that some people have to demean others in order for them to feel better about themselves. I know no one is perfect, I am certainly no where near it, but while this guy deserves a good kick in the ass, there is little that can be done to deter people who are on a roll like that. I did very much appreciate Lydianne's approach "Thank goodness we are so perfect so we can talk this way!" is going in my tool box! Hope you don't mind Lydianne!

I think you showed great restraint and the fact that you have regrets means that you do truly care about the community and want to defend it, that place was probably not the time to take a stand, especially when it is with someone that doesn't seem to deserve much of anyone's time to begin with.

[Sophie Yang]

Katrina,

Don't address the Trans question directly, but frame questions in a larger context.

Let me just ask you two simple questions:

1. do you support bullying of any kind, I don't.
2. how does this phrase end: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are

answer: ... Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

If George Washington was anti-gay, the American Revolution would have failed. Check out Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben, a gay volunteer, who trained George Washington's army.

If you don't want to be picked on, don't pick on others.

You never know when your life will change. One lives in a fantasy world if one thinks the handicap, women, blacks, Hispanics, LGBT, the elderly don't get discriminated against. You never know when you are going to be in the minority or when something happens to you. Just check out Lou Gehrig and Stephen Hawkins life stories.

The march on Washington the day after the Trump Inauguration is just the tip of social fabric changes that are churning through society. The era of white male dominance in the US is coming to an end, check out the racial demographics. Women are surpassing men in obtaining higher education. Education is a key component to power and position.
The midterms election of women, minorities, and about 40 trans candidates are going to be interesting to watch.

There are many trans-individuals, women, handicapped people, people of of all races, US citizens, non citizens who have served in the past and are serving now, honorably in defense of the Constitution and the idea enshrined in the Declaration of Independence.

Don't label me a libtard, I just think everyone has the unalienable Rights of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Then get up and go talk to the women.

[Barbara Black]

I admire your contraint, but couldn't they read your 'discomfort' on your face? I think I would have been beet red..

[Stephanie47]

Move this conversation from the kitchen table to a table at a restaurant and film the responses of those around as in ABC's "What would you do?" with John Quinones. Sad!

[kimdl93]

Am I crazy or did this person deserve to be punched in the face in front of his wife?

To paraphrase Clint Eastwood in “Unforgiven”, ‘We all deserve it.’

At at some point I have been an ass and can think of at least one occasion when I got exactly that.

[mykell]

Amen, Mykell. I am totally surprised by many of the comments suggesting someone should just sit idle while vile statements are made just to keep the peace. As Mykell said supporting or taking someone to task for vile filth when talking about a group does not confer inclusion in the group. Should a person sit idle when vile filth is put forth against Jews or Roman Catholics (yes, I've heard it said for those) or Latinos (heard that lately?), and, I could go on ad nauseam. If you do not stand up for any segment of society who is show ill will, when your turn comes, who is left to stand up for you? To sit idly and not confront such hatred is plain wrong. One does not have to resort to violence or even raise the decibel level to confront hatred.

Grrrr!!!

funny you should mention Latina, my wife is, their by my son is half, was working with an elder person whos son i later worked with.

we were working in a predominantly Puerto rican area and he kept making fun about how they spoke English with an accent, i was just happy they were speaking English.

i got fed up and asked if i had showed him a picture of my son. he said no, i pulled the foto out and showed him, he said he was handsome, i said thank you and told him he was 1/2 puerto rican, he started to babble about how i knew what he meant about the comments and he didnt mean anything.

i looked at him in the eye and told him i knew exactly what he meant and walked away, that is what i base my new approach to sticking up for myself while not outing myself. someday when my wife is better about it it wont matter anymore and i will just stick up for myself....

[KatrinaK]

And therein lies the crux - I’m kind of ashamed of myself for not finding a way to speak up. Forget the violence, which was just a fantasy really... I feel like if I have the audacity to wear a genderfluid pride flag around my neck, that I have a responsibility to stand up to that kind of vitriol. Cause here’s the thing- if we don’t stand up for ourselves, how can we expect anyone else to stand up for us. I feel like once we have constitutional protection as a group against discrimination, then it will be easy - but who is going to pave that road if not us?

Thanks for the positive comments about controlling myself, but I feel like I missed an opportunity to do the ethical thing, out of fear. I’m done with fear, but it’s taking time for that to manifest itself in my daily life.

[Rogina B]

And therein lies the crux - I’m kind of ashamed of myself for not finding a way to speak up.

I guess I am the only one that thinks you should have said something....