As cross dressers do we really *understand* women?

[Charlotte7]

Let's start from the position that we're all here because we are drawn, in one way or another, to the feminine. As has been stated here many times before there is a trans spectrum and all of us, even those who are not here, and those who never dress, and would never dress, occupy a space on that spectrum. We are all individuals and we all do what works for us. As a group we should, as we all have many things in common, support and share experiences for the good of each of us.

It has also been said before that there are probably as many reasons that people cross dress as there are people who cross dress. We are not peas in a pod.

The one thing that we all have in common through is that something, somewhere triggers an interest in us, towards the feminine and the female. To put it slightly more bluntly we are all cross dressers because we all, to some degree or other, wear ladies clothes.

This isn't a choice that we necessarily make, it is often, (it was in my case), made for us. I was a regular cross dresser from the age of 4 which is well before I knew that cross dressing happened. In my case it just happened, I had an inner feeling of girl and I had to express it the only way I knew how. As such, this cross dressing life is the only life I know. Each and everyone of us will have our own 'origin' story and there will be common themes and also our own individual elements.

So, all of this, in one way or another comes down to how we feel, how we interact, how we perceive ourselves on the spectrum. For many of us, we want to *be* (that is experience, to feel, to express ourselves, not necessarily transition), the best woman we can be, our vision of the ideal woman. We are drawn to the silky, the lacy, the frilly, the loose and flowing, the mundane even, the everyday nitty-gritty of women's wear. But, this is where we start to diverge, how realistic is our vision of what the ideal woman is? Are we, in doing what we do, in striving to do this, in fact helping to perpetuate negative stereotypes that women have to fight against every day?

And our one big problem in all of this, ok, we have many problems, but the common thread that runs through this forum, the most often repeated bugbear that we all face is finding acceptance, not necessarily inner acceptance, but acceptance from society, and more close to home, family, friends and significant others.

But, and this is my question, how concerned are we, in our desire to be, to show the world, or to show ourselves as the best women that we can be, how concerned are we with what it is like, to understand the real life experiences of the world as lived by real world women? Because I think that is is one of the big areas where we as a group, not necessarily individually, but as a group where we fall down.

We have to remember that a bit over 50% of the population are women and yet, they are still have nothing like equality, even in our western society, never mind the rest of the world, we can start with our own backyards first. And having women on board, having women fighting in our corner could be a massive bonus for us, it could also help in the battle for acceptance that so many here seek in their own relationships.

But to do that, we need to see things from a woman's perspective, we need to empathise, with them, we have to understand the place in the world which we, that is men, men in general, allow them to have. There is a huge power imbalance in the world and we should play our part in being the solution.

I'm not going to be specific here, but it doesn't take very long if you read threads with open eyes, to find posts which demonstrate what I'm talking about here. It has been said, and I to some extent agree with this that one of the main problems of cross dressers is that we want all of the good bits of being a woman without any of the bad. There are many stories in the media at the moment which show the imbalance in the world between the sexes. I think that this is the kind of thinking which we could and should try to do something about and in so doing, we could advance our cause greatly. It's a win-win situation. But, it's not easy and it can't be done overnight. But, we can play out part in this.

I don't expect this thread to have a great or positive reaction but if it makes even one person think then it will have served it purpose.

[Helen_Highwater]

Charlotte,

Thoughtfully written piece.

So, starting with the title, "Do we understand women". I would say to a point yes but I also feel it's as much that we can emphasise with them through some shared experiences.

We can have sympathy with the "Aren't you ready yet" side of things. We know and understand the mechanics of trying to present that flawless look. While heels make legs look good, the feet take a different viewpoint. We know why clothes shopping takes as long as it does. Many many practical things that we have shared experience of.

Where we part company, as you rightly point out, is in areas such as pay and promotion in the work place, even getting through the initial job selection. While it's possible for us to experience, thankfully on rare occasions, misogynistic behavior, we nevertheless are aware if it, albeit for different reasons.

Last night I watched a program about domestic violence and schemes to tackle offender behavior. True there are cases of bullied , mistreated men, the victims of female aggression. However in truth it's women who make up the bulk of those who are victims so for the vast majority of us, we can't experience that.

We won't have the lifelong experience of unwanted sexual attention while out in public places. We won't have experience of so much that forms part of women's daily lives.

So understand, yes to a point. What I hope for is that with that level of understanding comes ever greater empathy from us that helps level the playing field for women. I have to declare and interest in that I have two daughters for whom I want the best out of life.

I'm sure someone with commen about positive discrimination negatively impacting men. Well perhaps they're the ones best suited to understand just what women have gone through for way too long.

[DaisyLawrence]

Charlotte you speak the truth of it.

The lack of empathy and understanding of real womens lives shown from the crossdressing community can be staggering at times. I think it all comes down to why some people crossdress. For example, a very great deal of M2F crossdressing is done for purely sexual stimulation with the participant having no gender issues or inate 'transness'. This is all fine and good but it hardly increases the participants likelyhood that they are empathetic of womens lot in society and it is unlikey to make them a feminist. In fact I would expect they are more likely to be sexist and misogynistic than your average bloke. Like it or not, much of the crossdressing community is represented by these types and it is often the first image in the mind of anyone when they hear of crossdressing.

For me, I don't wont to be the image of the perfect woman in my mind, in fact, 99% of my crossdressing is androgenous at best, effeminate male at worst. I do this because that is how I see myself, a feminist biological male with an empathy for all womanhood. My presentation is important to me because I want people, women in particular, to know that I am not the usual alpha male that they come to expect. By and large it works and people (well women at least) warm to it. However, as biological men we must all do as you say with regards to sexism and breaking down gender boundaries, regardless of whether or not we crossdress to any extent. You shouldn't need to experience sexual harrasment as a woman does to realise it is wrong and should be stopped.

Great post Charlotte.

[Rachelish]

Hi Charlotte

I hope your post doesn't inspire negative reactions. You make very valid points and raise some interesting questions which mirror much of my own thinking as I start to venture out more. Self-acceptance is one thing but we cannot expect any one 'correct' response from those around us, whether family, friends or the wider world.

On the (very occasional) forays I've made out into the open I do wonder whether I'm seen as: a freak, a threat to the established order, a pioneer for wider acceptance of TG people or an just individual just being who they want to be. I would hope the latter, which is closest to the truth.

I try to look as much an 'ordinary' woman as possible, but that's because that matches what I am striving for when I dress, not particularly to avoid negative reactions. However, I can see the possibility of situations where what someone wants to achieve in their expression is more at odds with how women generally present, and that might provoke the feeling that we are being insensitive. I'm not saying that's right, but how it could be perceived.

There is also a danger that our behaviour is seen as yet another way in which men have all the advantages. I.e., from a woman's point of view, not only do men have access to the better jobs, better pay, fewer family responsibilities, etc., but they even get to dress like us!

Personally, I don't believe that dressing as a woman brings us to an understanding of the whole experience of being a woman, and that we should be sensitive to that, but we are in a unique position to empathise in more ways than non-CDs. That should make us more aware of the injustices that women (still) suffer, and lead us to modify our behaviour, both dressed and in drab.

How we go about that is a difficult question. I try and go about my life with kindness and consideration to all, and I hope that's reflected in how I deal with people, as Rachel or otherwise, and in a small way, that helps to make the world a more accepting and fairer place for everyone.

Rachel

[Rayleen]

Rachelish,


I'm in the same thinking, for me it makes me a more caring person toward others now, my point of view.

[GretchenM]

What a wonderful post, Charlotte. And great responses so far.

I personally relate to this subject more like Rachel, but I also think of this in terms of the biological as well as the social and psychological. How you relate to it is, in my view, not nearly as important as whether you do relate to it.

Our brains have certain structures that exhibit a male form and a female form. Exactly how that influences our behavior is still mostly a mystery, but it is recognized that there is certain programming that we are born with that is linked to our sex. It has been found that those structures in trans people tend to exhibit an intermediate form to various degrees. Thus, if this fully pans out, that basic programming forms the foundation for fundamental behavior.

Therefore, males and females should exhibit some degree of difference in behavior and perception, but males should not be very good at "doing" the female thing and visa versa. But in trans people there often (not always) is a bit of that crossover in the behavior. Therefore, if you are trans and you have an intermediate brain structure then it would be expected that you would view the world differently from both male and female points of view; a kind of blended perception of social role. And that is often what is found in trans people. So, using this argument, crossdressers who are also trans to some degree should exhibit a degree of empathy for the situation females find themselves in these days with regard to the relationship to the more pure masculine male. But they should also be able to see the male perspective. Therefore they have the unique ability to see how the two can be blended into a single concept that supports each side in, perhaps, a more conflict free way than is currently the case in most modern cultures.

Perhaps humanity in general is choosing to shift a long standing and primitive male/female relationship where the male is dominate and the female subordinate to a relationship to a point where there is far more equality. I am not convinced that strong difference ever existed in primitive humans but where that did exist it was a social standard and not a biological standard.

I lean more toward the male/female relationship fundamentally being a collaboration for the purpose of insuring the survival of the offspring and therefore males and females, in a purely natural world, work together and that includes respecting each other. In other words, somewhere in history the idea of male dominance got planted by some ideology that elevated males to a very high status and pushed females down. Or maybe it was an outgrowth of an agricultural society that allowed this shift.

Thus, I wonder if the women's equality movement is actually an effort to get back to the kind of collaborative relationship that existed when we were hunter-gatherers but with a very modern kind of structure. Where do the trans people fit in this? Perhaps they understand the need for the shift in relationship because they can see what males and females have difficulty seeing which is the presence of a workable middle ground where male and female are stirred together in a constructive fashion rather than there be a rigid hierarchy that seems to have been growing for the last few thousand years. Of course, most of this is a speculative conclusion to an assembly of scattered bits and pieces of evidence that there is a fundamental difference between males and females with regard to their biology and it goes far beyond the differences in reproductive roles. Thus, I think transgender folks can play a role in showing others how one can blend the social and sexual roles in a way that results in a much more productive social structure without all the conflict and tension between the sexes that currently exists.

But it is also important to recognize there is a strong headwind in that trans is not well understood by the more pure forms of men and women. Thus, there is a suspicion that "we are up to something not good." Some probably are up to no good, but I think most trans people just want acceptance of their difference as a reflection of their blended neurology that even the trans people don't fully understand. But the fact remains that in some cultures trans people are not only accepted but play a significant and unique role in the society. The "two spirit" concept and tradition in some Native American cultures is an example of how trans people can be incorporated into a mostly male/female culture and social structure. Other cultures around the world are the same way.

But the trans people also provide a kind of billboard for the rest of the society that says, "Cooperation and collaboration is more productive than competition and domination." Perhaps the trans people provide a message that is read in the sub-conscious mind that says blending can work quite well. So, clearly it is the effectively blended sexes and genders in more "normal" people is workable and those who are trans are kind of mediators of the interactions between the sexes and perhaps can, and in some cultures, help keep the playing field more level for all in the complex social life of humans.

Thank you for bringing up this subject. Again, great post, Charlotte.

[suzanne]

Oh my, what a can of worms you've opened here. Sure, there are some fetishists among us, but I think they're in the minority. Most of us in the forum fall somewhere in the transgender spectrum which is a continuum ranging from zero (not feminine at all. Actually those people don't post here) to 100% feminine, which would be those undergoing MTF transition. This is NOT a yes/no binary. A person can have any combination of masculine or feminine characteristics. All are valuable human beings and all have their place.

I many cultures around the world, there are more than two genders. Indigenous North Americans use the term Two-Spirit, although non natives are discouraged from using this name. We are gender fluid, and we do have experiences and sensibilities that are relatable to both male and female. While I won't claim to know how a real woman thinks and feels, I think I understand a little. By the same token, I don't experience the world the way a "real man" does either. To me, a crossdresser is not what I am, but crossdressing is the behavior that expresses my gender fluidness. Maybe a distinction without a difference, but a real and significant part of me is feminine, and without it I am an incomplete human being. And so I dress regularly to give that side of me her freedom as well.

[alwayshave]

Charlotte, as to your title, I'm with Churchill's description of Russia applied to women, "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma." I try to understand women but I often cannot. I grew up in a home with 4 sisters, a mother, grandmother and great grand aunt, I cannot understand their emotion and views as hard as I try. I know I show more empathy toward women than a lot of men.

[char GG]

Just my personal opinion: No, I don’t think a CDer (not sure about trans) or any man could ever fully understand what it feels like to be a woman. If they weren’t raised as a girl, had the same school experiences as a girl, have the same biology as a girl, have the same work/ life experiences as a woman, it would be hard to fully comprehend how it feels to be a woman. Clothes do not make a woman. Heels, hair, perfecting the woman’s walk, voice, bra size , etc. does not constitute how it FEELS to be a woman.

Again, just my opinion but I would never, in a million years, say that a woman could fully understand how it feels to be a man. I may have opinions, but did not have the life experience.

[Beverley Sims]

When the speak to me in my native tongue I usually comprehend what they are saying.

Their reasoning?

That is a different kettle of fish and that is why as the person I am I spend a lot of time wearing dresses to fathom it out. :-)

It's like why do we dress, the answer is in the same book but I am still looking for it.

[Micki_Finn]

I have always been a fierce advocate for women’s equality, even before I dressed. I would not say that I have ever “fallen down” on Women’s issues. That being said, I have run across dressers who display attitudes and world views tainted with misogyny and cheuvenism. Often it’s either so ingrained or so subtle that the person doesn’t even know.

All I can say is, listen, be an ally, but don’t fall into the trap of thinking women need us to “save” them.

[Robertacd]

I think we only understand a very small part of what it's like to be a woman, the trials and tribulations they go through with clothing, shoes, and makup.

But as a very smart woman told me a long time ago. "There is a lot more to being a woman than clothes." Then she went on to list a number of issues and inequalities that women have to deal with on a daily basis.

We may feel some of their vulnerabilities as we go out in public dressed. But that's only temporary for us, they feel it all the time.

So as much as we like to think we better understand women, I don't think we do. We are just more accepting of their differences.

[Tracii G]

I think we better understand them to a degree and are more accepting in general.
Will we ever really know what it feels like? No because we will never be women in the pure sense of the word.
I guess one can go thru SRS and make all the changes physically but still you are not 100% female and never will be.
For me personally I doubt I will ever understand women and thats fine I can accept that.
I treat others as I wish to be treated and as an equal human being sex or gender makes no difference.

I have to wonder if men were ever supposed to understand women and women to totally understand men?
We were created differently were we not?

Here is food for thought:
If a man calls himself a feminist is he lying to himself or is he saying that because his GF/SO is a feminist?
Is he going along with her to keep the peace in the relationship?
If his GF/SO were an actual feminist she would have no use for him.
I say the latter because what I see at these womens marches is pure hatred for any male.I have been subject to their ridicule at a rally where I supported them.
It showed me what they are about and I want no part of it and the hate.
I'm done with hate and it never does anyone any good and somebody always gets hurt.

[Teresa]

Charlotte,
Quite a can of worms in this thread !

I know you made some generalisations , as you say we are all crossdressers but what a spectrum that covers . It's inevitable some aren't going to give a thought about the need to understand women , because they have no inclination , their behaviour may upset women but some may not even care .

For the TG community understanding may be related to how bad their GD is , I'm assuming the more the need to be a woman the more empathy and understanding they will show .

Personally it's a question I'm struggling with because the lack of understanding and acceptance from my wife over my TG issues , I'm trying not to be too biased in considering others .

As women are so different to attempt to understand them all is impossible , perhaps we can answer it better if we know how some understand us , it's easier for us to show empathy towards an understanding woman . I must admit I have been so surprised at the level of acceptance from women , I don't just mean in the retails sector , I can't say they see me as a woman perhaps it's more down to me not posing a threat , I'm seen more as a woman than a man and appears to be enough . To expand that answer to reply to the broader question my level of acceptance is spread right across family and friends .

To live a life totally as a woman is a tough one to answer , I believe now very few achieve that 100% , I simply say now I live life as Teresa and leave others to decide where I slot in . It will be interesting if and when I get my art group up and running because that will be totally as Teresa .

The equality issue is very clouded these days, with so many single parent famillies and in some cases the wife being the wage earner because she can earn more than the husband . As members of the TG community we may enter a very similar situation , we could experience many of the problems female workers have encountered , it could be debatable if all women would want us on the same playing field , that is more up to us how we presnt ourselves and interract with others .

We have to consider in our part of the World that we have the freedom to express all these issues , we may complain about our rights but in fact we are fairly free to do very much as we choose and dress as we feel . Lets face it much of this is relatively new even in our society, we aren't doing too bad in a very short space of time . It's only natural some are on board more than others .

All I know is I'm so happy to shake off the male straightjacket , I'm free now to explore my female trait/needs , to learn to be a partial woman is quite a learning curve , I can never expect to be 100% but in the process I hope I do consider and try and understand women but it is a complex World they live in .

[LilSissyStevie]

That's the trouble with groupthink. You start to think that people of some group all think alike. I don't think that women even understand how "women" think anymore than I understand how "men" think because "women" and "men" are abstractions and abstractions don't think, individuals do.

[Rachelish]

My presentation is important to me because I want people, women in particular, to know that I am not the usual alpha male that they come to expect.

Yep, me too.

[Alice B]

For the large majority of us the answer is NO. However, if you have been married or with the same partner for a long period, example my wife of 27 years, the answer is yes. I can now correctly know what her reaction is to almost all situations, including my dressing. I can easily read her emotions simply by the look or expressions on her face, or her choice of words. It makes life easier and more fun. I can dress without asking for permission and know what her reaction will be to my clothing choices.

[DIANEF]

Oh my, what a can of worms you've opened here. Sure, there are some fetishists among us, but I think they're in the minority. Most of us in the forum fall somewhere in the transgender spectrum which is a continuum ranging from zero (not feminine at all. Actually those people don't post here) to 100% feminine, which would be those undergoing MTF transition. This is NOT a yes/no binary. A person can have any combination of masculine or feminine characteristics. All are valuable human beings and all have their place.

I many cultures around the world, there are more than two genders. Indigenous North Americans use the term Two-Spirit, although non natives are discouraged from using this name. We are gender fluid, and we do have experiences and sensibilities that are relatable to both male and female. While I won't claim to know how a real woman thinks and feels, I think I understand a little. By the same token, I don't experience the world the way a "real man" does either. To me, a crossdresser is not what I am, but crossdressing is the behavior that expresses my gender fluidness. Maybe a distinction without a difference, but a real and significant part of me is feminine, and without it I am an incomplete human being. And so I dress regularly to give that side of me her freedom as well.

This is pretty much what I wanted to say, but Suzanne worded it better than I could.

[Robertacd]

For the large majority of us the answer is NO. However, if you have been married or with the same partner for a long period, example my wife of 27 years, the answer is yes.

You understand that one person, just like I understand my wife and it helps, but all women are different, and you don't know the rest of them that well.

[Sallee]

I guess to understand what it is to be aq woman, fab, you have to be an fab, but even then we as gender fluid or even transitioned, we can't' because we were not. It kind of like understanding what it is like to be another person any person. you can't because you're not them. We has gender variant people maybe we can understand what it is like to be cat called or be discriminated against but still you can't understand what it is like to be some one your not. Just understand what it is like to be you and that will be a good step forward

Great thread

[Gillian Gigs]

I can only speak for myself, in my youth I thought that I understood women, did I have a lot to learn! I started to understand women after I got married, or so I thought, and then a daughter was born into my life, again the learning curve changed. My mother was someone who was probably a feminist, she raised me to try and I say try, to understand women, but more importantly accept that women had valve and their opinions were important to the overall schemes of life. The key to understanding, is to listen with both ears and talk less to find out why they do the things they do.
My Cd'ing has little to do with understanding women. I can know how some article of clothing fits, but whether you are a man or a woman, that starts in-between the ears. I remember a trans FTM sharing how they only started to understand the male mind after they were on testosterone and felt its effects on the mind and body. From what I have read on this site about trans MTF, and their taking estrogen, I would say that only after the mind changes due to hormones, only then can anyone start to understand how someone of the opposite sex thinks, acts and why.

[susan54]

Some excellent words there. Char GG hit the nail on the head. Women are so much more than their outfits. We cherry pick - we don't get the glass ceiling at work, the witless remarks from men in the street (OK some of us do but women get it way more), being patronised by men, being harassed by men, periods, being written off for getting older - the list goes on.

Yes, we understand why it takes so long to get ready and why so much luggage is needed on holiday. But beyond that we might try to understand but I don't think we can. You don't need to wear women's clothes to be aware of the need for more women's rights. The best way to improve our understanding of women is to spend time with them and LISTEN. Yes, there are many women who are actively sympathetic to crossdressers and supportive but I can't see how that improves our understanding of women.

I am heterosexual but try to treat women with respect. Unlike many heterosexual men I actually LIKE women. I prefer their company to that of men. Women are different and in general better people than men. Vive la difference - and that difference will continue no matter how similarly we might be clothed.

[Micki_Finn]

Stevie got the nail on the head here.

That's the trouble with groupthink. You start to think that people of some group all think alike. I don't think that women even understand how "women" think anymore than I understand how "men" think because "women" and "men" are abstractions and abstractions don't think, individuals do.

[Stephanie47]

I have to agree with Char. Unless you have lived in a person's shoes or heels you really don't have a clue how a person feels. You can imagine it, but, you'll never live it. The only thing I can say is a person may have had a similar experience, but, not the same experience which leads to a greater empathy for the person. When I fumbled for words to express myself during one of those "Talks" and said something about 'my inner woman,' she shot back "When you can have a baby tell me about your inner woman!" She had a point.

Without getting into any politics one of the things that raised my ire was some men, and, yes, some women, basically could not understand the long lasting effects of a sexual assault. Very dismissive they were. However, as a survivor of combat I have a deep understanding of the longevity of the ill effects of traumatic experiences. My experiences give me total empathy and understanding of what women in our society have to endure on a continuing basis. It's the same with trying to identify with the daily plight heaped upon my African-American son-in-law. As a white male I cannot comprehend his thought patterns. I have not and cannot live his life. Nor can I live the life of a woman.

[CynthiaD]

The first thing you have to understand about women is this: There are around three billion women in the world, and no two of them are alike. Even if you come to understand one woman perfectly (and you never will), it won't help you to understand all women, because they're all different. Do you understand all of your male friends perfectly? No. Because they're all different, and they're all different from you. Do you even understand yourself perfectly? I don't. I continually amaze myself with the stupid things I do, and often don't know why I did them. I have to deal with a lot of people problems in my work, and it's important for me to dig through other people's thought processes to understand how they got to where they are. It's always an adventure, and it doesn't matter whether the person is male or female. What's important is to try to understand other people's thought processes. This will help you understand a lot of things, but it won't help you understand everything. People will continually surprise you. Thank goodness. It would be soooo boring if we were all alike. It's also important to remember that we're all flawed in some way or another and accept others with all their foibles. If you can do that, it won't matter if you understand someone perfectly. And it won't matter if they don't understand you.