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Thread: As cross dressers do we really *understand* women?

  1. #26
    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    This has been interesting, since I spent so much of my life thinking that the divergence of men's and women's worlds was due to differences between men and women. The more I 'cross' into their land the more I see them as female, but otherwise very similar in range to types of men. That hasn't cured me of wanting to be feminine in ways we associate with women, but find many females don't want to be feminine in the ways we associate with being female, as it confines them the way being masculine confines me.

    That said, it is reasonable to try to understand and feel in ways that females do and men don't, which is maybe the way the OP is meant. We obviously can't feel whatever comes with ovaries, but we can feel what it is like to be flat-chested.We can feel what it feels like to swing our hips and walk in heels, and understand how it feels when people turn their heads to look. It is more difficult to feel free emotionally, if that was trained out of us. There are females who have the same problem. I know what it feels like to be a fearless male protector, and having spent enough time letting myself slip into womanhood, what it feels like to be dependent and weak relative to men. Each element of men's and women's lives can be broken down like that.
    We are all beautiful...!

  2. #27
    Just do it already! DaisyLawrence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice B View Post
    For the large majority of us the answer is NO. However, if you have been married or with the same partner for a long period, example my wife of 27 years, the answer is yes.
    Exactly. My wife of over 30 years is my understanding of women. We have known each other since childhood and been together since teenagers and we know how each other think in a way I can not put into words. A bit of crossdressing is irrelevant to any greater understanding of women. Is a single crossdresser any more likely to empathise with women anymore than than a single none-crossdresser? Char (GG) got it right as usual. A bit of female presentation is not the same as experiencing a lifetime as a woman from birth. I will, however, stick to my earlier point that all men need to try to understand the lives of women (as far as that is possible) and to strive to make them equal and without fear of harrasment, regardless of what they are wearing at any one time.
    Last edited by DaisyLawrence; 10-10-2018 at 03:07 AM.

  3. #28
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    There have been some very good responses to my original post and I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate so far. When I put up the original post my idea was not about can we 'feel' what it is like to be a woman, I don't think we can, and it was not 'do we understand what it is like to be an individual woman', it was more to do with the wider role that women have in society, a society largely created by men, for the benefit of men.

    As was pointed out, men aren't the main victims of domestic violence. Also, men are not murdered because they don't follow some cultural expectations. We also have to wonder, (well it's obvious really) why some countries have a shortage of girls born, when girls should be in the (slight) majority of births. Men aren't subject to FGM, there is so much more.

    Why are there so few women in politics, leading big companies, even occupying places on the boards of big companies? Why are women disproportionately employed in the lowest paid jobs?

    If we bring this debate closer to our own interest, why are most college and university places on fashion and deign courses taken by women, but the big fashion brands predominately run by men? At the end of the day, who decides what women should (or even can) look like?

    I know there is a big desire for many here to wear heels, and for many here heels represent one of the essences of femininity, but are they? Heels are something which when worn excessively can cause harm, and yet women wear them, through choice? I don't think so? Through comfort? Almost certainly not. Through a pressure to conform? Yes, I think that this is the answer.

    I recently had a conversation with someone about heels and this is what they said, "No I don't wear heels, why would you? They are a physical representation of the sexual objectification of women, period. Furthermore they hurt, damage feet and can only be worn by people with big feet and they are always tall in the first place, even women. At 5 foot, I might like to wear heels to special occasions but with size 3 feet a 1" heel is high!"

    I recently read this on another thread on this forum "but the basic problem is many women don't like their figures" which does get quite close to the point and is a good point, however, rather than addressing this head on, rather than pointing out the reason for this is the enormous pressure that women and girls are placed under to conform to an unachievable ideal woman, the poster went on to say how women admired her legs, how they wish they had legs like that.

    Now, this may be true, but my point is that we shouldn't be celebrating that we look better in a skirt than a women, but more, we should be trying to help create a world in which everyone can be happy as they are. On the same thread a poster said that they were surprised at the number of women who say they can't wear heels. Heels, again. Most women can't wear heels because they are uncomfortable and over long periods of time, they damage feet, and yes, some women do wear them, and yes, some women don't end up with damaged feet, but whilst you will see pictures of glamorous celebrities arriving on the red carpet in heels, you don't see the same attention paid to the 000s of ordinary women whose feet are ruined trying to chase a dream.

    There was one reply to this thread that was not unexpected, and did disappointment me due to its lack of empathy with the need to improve women's rights and equality between the sexes. All I can say here is that if a group of society is protesting because they feel they are excluded from being equal members of that society (and they clearly are) then, I see it as an incorrect position to adopt in saying I want no part of what they are fighting for as they hate me.

    I think that a better position to adopt is to listen as to why they hate me and then to act on those concerns.

    Which brings us back to my original question, that should we, as cross dressers be more supportive of women's inequality, women's rights and the their place in society? I think that we should, as for us, on the road to our acceptance, I see that as a win-win situation.
    Last edited by Charlotte7; 10-10-2018 at 04:06 AM.

  4. #29
    Just do it already! DaisyLawrence's Avatar
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    Spot on Charlotte.

    Regarding your last point, yes we should but then again, as I said before, so should all men. The author Helen Boyd found the most frustrating thing about crossdressers, when you think of them as a minority group looking for acceptance, is how insular the community can be and how they distance themselves from other minority groups looking for exactly the same thing. She points out that these other groups, essentially the lesbain and gay community, have fought for their rights and know how to do so, they have empathy and understanding for the acceptance that a crossdresser seeks in society and yet what does the crossdressing community do? Do we embrace their offer of inclusion? Do we stand together with them, with feminists, with all other minorities looking for acceptance? Many don't. In fact, one of the single most common phrases on this, yes this, forum is "I am straight", like that is of any relevance what-so-ever to crossdressing. So yes I agree, I for one dream of a time when I click 'what's new' and I see less of the panty threads, less about 'how you love heels', less about being the perfect visual representation of the 'perfect' sexy woman, less about how short is too short for a skirt at your age, and less about how most of us are straight here. This behaviour is the polar opposite of feminism and at times plain homophobic and is NOT the way to garner support for our desire for acceptance in society. If a crossdresser is annoyed that people think of crossdressers as being weird then the solution is to stop being weird.
    Last edited by DaisyLawrence; 10-10-2018 at 03:56 AM. Reason: grammar

  5. #30
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    If you ask of someone, "Do you understand how a car works" what you're asking is a generality. While they all function to certain basic principles not all cars are identical in size and these days s/w.

    This is how I read the post. I know I'll never feel that which a GG feels. I lack the upbringing to say the least and more inportantly those instincts provided by evolution. I've also don't feel the same day to day societal pressures. I don't pretent either that I'll ever fully understand what it's like to be a woman. What I believe is I have a greater empathy for women than many other males and that if nothing else is a good starting point.

    Charlotte is absolutely correct in saying we here should do all in our gift to support the furtherance on woman's rights. In the same way the progress made by the Gay community has benefited us suppoting women's rights will lead to a yet more open society. That will further aid our cause. Setting aside any gains for our community there is the matter of simple human justice.
    Last edited by Helen_Highwater; 10-10-2018 at 04:26 AM.

  6. #31
    AKA Lexi sometimes_miss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlotte7 View Post
    As was pointed out, men aren't the main victims of domestic violence.
    Not PHYSICAL violence. But women tear into us psychologicolly often.
    We also have to wonder, (well it's obvious really) why some countries have a shortage of girls born, when girls should be in the (slight) majority of births.
    In nature, there are about 105 boys born for every 100 girls, this is true all over the world. The places where it is different, is due to aborting the females before they are born, in order to have a son.
    Why are there so few women in politics
    Because fewer women WANT to go into politics.
    leading big companies, even occupying places on the boards of big companies? Why are women disproportionately employed in the lowest paid jobs?
    Because success in the workplace has little to do with how successful a female is in passing along her dna to the next generation. So it's of less importance to most women.
    If we bring this debate closer to our own interest, why are most college and university places on fashion and deign courses taken by women, but the big fashion brands predominately run by men?
    Women care about their looks more, because men care more about what women look like than how successful she is at a job. Corporations are more likely to be run by men, because men are more likely to compete for the top most financially lucrative positions.
    At the end of the day, who decides what women should (or even can) look like?
    In the free world, it comes down to what a woman will think attracts those who she wants to mate with. Styles that enhance attraction succeed, and styles that repulse get dropped. Workplace attire in jobs where it's not at all important to be attractive, are the exception, exhibited say, by diving suits and scrub clothes of doctors and nurses.

    I know there is a big desire for many here to wear heels, and for many here heels represent one of the essences of femininity, but are they? Heels are something which when worn excessively can cause harm, and yet women wear them, through choice? I don't think so? Through comfort? Almost certainly not. Through a pressure to conform? Yes, I think that this is the answer.
    Women mainly wear heels to enhance the appearance of longer legs which is reminiscent of young, just 'past puberty' females, indicating fertility but limited exposure to disease, so it's probably got a genetic connection to it. Heels also change the shape of the leg and butt, in ways which often enhance the percentage of men who find that woman attractive.

    "No I don't wear heels, why would you? They are a physical representation of the sexual objectification of women, period.
    Simple. Women who wear heels get more sexual attention from men, so those women have a wider choice of mates.

    "but the basic problem is many women don't like their figures"
    Women aren't satisfied with their figures, because they aren't able to adequately attract a particular man or group of men. This is most evident when a woman is trying to attract a guy who isn't interested in her body type. It also comes into play when she already HAS a male mate, who's interest is waning, so she might think by changing something about her body she may re-ignite the same passion that he had for her before. This goes against a male's natural impulse to have sex with as many different females as possible (the Coolidge effect).

    the enormous pressure that women and girls are placed under to conform to an unachievable ideal woman
    They pressure THEMSELVES into trying to be something they are not. There is no universal ideal woman. men vary in what we are attracted to. You might find Dolly Parton figures the best. I might prefer Twiggy. How is either of them the unachievalbe ideal woman? Simple. Women try to be something that they are not, in order to try to attract a guy who isn't interested in what she is. Instead, it would be better for her to choose a mate out of those who DO find her attractive, just as it is better for men to do this. I believe the old saying is, 'Barking up the wrong tree'.


    they damage feet, and yes, some women do wear them, and yes, some women don't end up with damaged feet,
    The problem with their feet, comes from wearing shoes that don't fit. Women put a priority on how a shoe looks, rather than how it feels to wear.

    Which brings us back to my original question, that should we, as cross dressers be more supportive of women's inequality, women's rights and the their place in society?
    The problem comes when we try to force what we think should be equal. For example, forcing girls into the stem fields whether they want to do it, or not, all because WE think that they should like to do that. You can't tell someone that they have to enjoy something. Either they like it, or they don't. Boys and girls tend to like different things. While yes, those choices should be available to girls, they shouldn't be mandatory for a certain percentage of them. I'd like to add, too, that if you're going to force women to go into stem fields in order to equal the numbers of women in those jobs, then, too, you have to force women into going into grave digging, sewer work, and garbage collection, too. Because women are far under represented in those fields, too. Would you feel comfortable telling girls that they have to go into one of those careers?
    Quote Originally Posted by GretchenM View Post
    Our brains have certain structures that exhibit a male form and a female form. Exactly how that influences our behavior is still mostly a mystery, but it is recognized that there is certain programming that we are born with that is linked to our sex. It has been found that those structures in trans people tend to exhibit an intermediate form to various degrees.
    ^That study was, IIRC, dismissed when it was found that random non trans people had the same structural differences from the norm as well. So while some trans folks show changes, so to, do non trans folks.

    That said, having grown up believing that I was really supposed to be a girl, I have watched and learned from the girls and women I've known. Then when the studies started coming out describing the differences between the sexes involving how we experience life, how we communicate, how we see the world, how we bond, and so many other things, I read everything I could find on the subject. And I understand a lot of the differences between us.
    But the big thing? We cannot know, what it's like growing up female. We can read about it, we can talk about it, we can get women's tales about their lives, and explanations of how they try to describe it.

    But we can never really know. Just like we cannot fathom what it's like to spontaneously burst into tears for no reason, or get angry for no particular reason, other than due to hormone fluctuations. My ex admitted to these, and more, feelings, but told me that she was aware of why she was feeling like that, and did her best to control her responses. A couple of youtube women have mentioned the same thing. This goes against everything that feminists tell us, because they don't want to be seen as people who are emotionally unstable due to their naturally cyclic hormone fluctuations; and that's perfectly understandable. Some of them are, and some, not. We have to judge each person as an individual.

    Both men and women are prone to behaving in irrational ways, due to various hormone driven influences on our behavior.

    My own problem with all of this? I forget; When I see a woman behaving as I would behave, apparently without any emotion connected to it, I tend to forget that what I'm seeing isn't what's actually happening 'underneath the hood'. While our behavior will appear the same, what she's thinking while doing it, and what I'm thinking, can be very, very different things entirely.

    So. Do I understand them; or rather, can I understand them? Yes. Do I always remember to figure out everything that she might be feeling at any given time? No. I still sometimes just take everything at face value.
    Last edited by sometimes_miss; 10-10-2018 at 02:22 PM.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  7. #32
    Aspiring Member Rayleen's Avatar
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    Understanding women ? not really , but they are still a mystery even after 40 some years.

    Respecting them as equal, Absolutely
    Wanting something is a fantasy which on a long time period clouds your mind and makes you think you need it.

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  8. #33
    Senior Member SaraLin's Avatar
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    I'm going to keep my answer pretty short...

    do I really *understand* women? Um, probably not really.

    But then again, I also don't really *understand* men, sports fans, goths, religious or political extremists, hoarders, teenagers, asian culture, etc.

    That's OK. I'm sure they don't really understand me either.

    Now I DO find my interests and feelings more closely aligned with women than most of those others.

  9. #34
    Senior Member GretchenM's Avatar
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    You are right on, Charlotte. We should support the efforts toward women's equality, even though we are not women. Trans people are not female or feminine in the fullest sense, but we do have an inkling of what it is like to be a genetic woman. There are a lot of men who also support women's equality; you just don't hear about them very much because the squeaky wheel (those who want to keep women in a subordinate position) is drawing the attention. As others have said, the only person you can potentially understand is yourself and even that is pretty challenging sometimes. It is not really an either/or situation. Support through empathy, sympathy, and compassion does not require complete understanding - it just requires an appreciation and recognition of female/feminine value being equal to male value in the total picture, whether that picture is a family structure or a social structure. And you don't have to be trans either. It helps a little, but it is not a prerequisite.

    As for the differences between male and female brains and trans often being found to be somewhere in between in the structure, research in the last couple of years on how the sense of gender identity is generated and makes it from the various structures in the computational part of the brain into the reasoning part of the brain (frontal and prefrontal cortex) has confirmed the original research done about 14 to 16 years ago. In fact, with functional MRI it is possible to actually watch the information flow from primarily the mid brain into the right fronto-parietal lobe (the facts and figures part) and combine with the more subjective information from the left fronto-parietal lobe (where it appears consciousness resides) and into the frontal lobe. Consciousness seems to be greatly linked to the language center in the brain and therefore consciousness may be dependent upon structured, symbolic language development.

    Mixed into that gender sense is the sense of body ownership. There is still a vast amount to be learned about this information flow, but everybody's sense of gender comes from the same places in the mid-brain and is blended with other information coming from other parts of the brain. This does seem to be fairly universal in mammals, but is also found in other groups such as birds that also have their individual form of a mid brain with very similar structures. So, a sense of gender and the associated behaviors is an ancient feature. But some kind of conscious awareness of that sense of gender is a rather recent feature and perhaps only associated with mammals that have a fairly well developed neocortex surrounding the mid brain where the fundamental sense of gender is created and transmitted to behavior controlling portions of the brain as well as language and some degree of reasoning power.

    Just wanted to clarify that. Sorry about getting so technical but the last few years has seen a huge increase in the amount of research on the neurological foundations of self identity. Some really exciting research is going on and possible answers are being found that could explain why we are the way we are, whether cisgender, transgender or some other kind of gender. In short, the ability to look down at still water, see your reflection, and actually recognize it is you and not some human preparing to leap out of the water and attack you. That is a really rare talent.

  10. #35
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    Understand women? No. Experience, empathize and come to understand many of the physical things they feel, because we've experienced same, YES.

  11. #36
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    Charlotte,
    Just the pick up on the comments women have made about not wearing heels , some were genuinely disappointed that they couldn't wear heels or a dress or skirt . I wasn't implying I looked better what did impress on me is they wanted to do so simply to feel good in themselves and not to adhere to social pressures . The pressure is not so much being an ideal woman but finding an ideal partner . I feel sometimes women have given up , what is the point of getting dressed up for a night out when dear old hubbie brushes his jeans off , slips on his old trainers and announces he's ready . Indeed it is a man's World in many ways .

    I personally don't feel we make bad partners , if you read many of the threads many of us go through so much to please our partners possibly far more than a non Cding male would . We care far more about family issues because we are more sensitive to them , we care how out partners look because we can relate to them .

    I did post a thread suggesting on a daily basis that there isn't a huge difference between men and women , we all do many of the same jobs we all deal with the same problems in much the same way . I appreciate there isn't total equality but in our culyure it is often swings and roundabouts . If we really want to make changes then we must look to cultures that truly treat women like second class citizens , there are parts of the World where not only women but minority groups sometimes fear for their lives .

  12. #37
    AKA Lexi sometimes_miss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    I feel sometimes women have given up , what is the point of getting dressed up for a night out when dear old hubbie brushes his jeans off , slips on his old trainers and announces he's ready . Indeed it is a man's World in many ways.
    Simple. Women are always aware that their primary value is often perceived to be in how physically attractive they are. Men aren't primarily valued for our appearance; we are judged more for what we do and have done, not how we look.

    I personally don't feel we make bad partners , if you read many of the threads many of us go through so much to please our partners possibly far more than a non Cding male would . We care far more about family issues because we are more sensitive to them , we care how out partners look because we can relate to them.
    Doesn't matter; the problem we most often have, is that we turn those women off, sexually. Women want a man that she's sexually turned on by. Otherwise, you may as well be her brother. Crossdressing in men seems to be almost universally, a sexual desire killer to women, because it assigns to us the feminine, submissive, description. And once the sexual attraction is gone, so, too, is the romantic feeling type of love. She might love you like a brother, but not like a mate.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

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    Lexi,
    Women do like to be treated like women sometimes and be taken out by a someone who has made an effort . I feel the trend is now if you can't beat then join them so women are tending to dress down .

    The sexual aspect works both ways after the menopause many women lose all interest so some of us end being no more than a brother and a mate anyway my Cding was just the excuse my wife needed .

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    How refreshing to have a serious discussion on a challenging subject, instead of "what color panties are you wearing today?"

    Excellent thread,

    Ineke

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    Aspiring Artist Kelly DeWinter's Avatar
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    Yes, I do understand women, but as a human being. I've always felt that narrowing ones perception of someone else through a condition (whether it' s crossdressing,race,creed,color,religion,etc) limits ones ability to empathize with that person. Yes there are limitations, but its not for trying. By the way my wife disagrees with my statement LOL
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    To be brutally honest with myself, I have no clue about what it's like to be a woman. Much of womanhood is beyond our biological grasp, even if we transition.

    What I do understand however, is what it's like to be feminine. Femininity is but one attribute of womanhood. I've met many a woman who is absolutely and unequivocally a heterosexual woman and mother, but isn't at all feminine. But being feminine, in itself, does not make one a woman.

    It's kind of a self-revelation that has put a damper on my CDing actually. No longer being able to fool myself that I am a woman was sort of an epiphany for me. I haven't dressed since (mid-July). I don't doubt for a minute that I *will* dress again some time, but it just doesn't seem to be a priority right now. If I do, it will no longer to try to be what I am not, but just for fun and the expression of my affinity for femininity.

  17. #42
    Gold Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    Not PHYSICAL violence. But women tear into us psychologicolly often.
    What???and men never use those same techniques??? I hesitate to directly criticise someone from the forum but I feel I have to say this made me respond that such replies are a representation of the misogyny women are bombarded with on a day to day basis. The, men aren't to blame, that pervades our culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    In nature, there are about 105 boys born for every 100 girls, this is true all over the world. The places where it is different, is due to aborting the females before they are born, in order to have a son.
    Why isn't the ratio perfectly even? Well, it is in the United States, all of Europe, Australia and many other developed countries (in fact, these countries have slightly more adult women than men).

    The small bias toward males that remains in the sex ratio of the total world population probably results from social factors: abortion of female fetuses and gendercide in Southeast Asia and much of the Middle East, where, in general, there is a strong cultural preference for males.
    Last edited by Helen_Highwater; 10-10-2018 at 07:01 PM.
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  18. #43
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    I'm sorry to jump in. I couldn't get thru your post so I'm responding ONLY to your header:

    Do we ever really understand anyone? Even ourselves?
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  19. #44
    AKA Lexi sometimes_miss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helen_Highwater View Post
    What???and men never use those same techniques??? I hesitate to directly criticise someone from the forum but I feel I have to say this made me respond that such replies are a representation of the misogyny women are bombarded with on a day to day basis. The, men aren't to blame, that pervades our culture.
    What I wrote was simply a reminder, that women aren't all the angels that you might think they are. Because of their lesser physical prowess as well as influences from society against their using physical violence, females learn early on how to abuse others verbally, instead. In fact, you can probably find right here on this forum, plenty of men whose SO's have said manipulative or insulting things in order to make us feel bad about ourselves; and it works.

    Why isn't the ratio perfectly even? Well, it is in the United States, all of Europe, Australia and many other developed countries ([B]in fact, these countries have slightly more adult women than men
    I'm not sure where you found your data. Every source I've ever read shows that more boys are born than girls. While no one knows exactly why, it does sort of even out over time, as more boys die in infancy, and more boys than girls die throughout life until old age.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  20. #45
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Right on Tracii G. I am sick of hate, no matter who is spouting it.

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    Even women cannot really understand what other women think and feel, because every human being is a bit different. I ama HIGHLY SENSITIVE PERSON male, and very different than most men, and more emotional and feeling, and some men think i may be gay, but i am not. I am saddened that so many women have been taught to go too far, and become loud, rude, foul mouthed, "in your face". and macho, and mean, like too many males are. I know many many women now, who will not own a dress or skirt, nor high heels, or any dressy clothing. I know there ae sophisticated ladies who still try to look smashing in dresses, hose and heels, but i see not very many at least in my age range. I am 64, and in the small midwestern towns where i live, I very seldom see women in dresses, hose and heels. About the only dresses i see, are Amish women in long 1870's style dresses! I guess in the big cities, you will see a lot more women in skirts, dresses and heels, but not like you did 50 yrs ago. I think hose and heels are the things which really attract male attention, at least mine! I still do not understand women though much! I see some women in the cities in dresses, skirts, hose and high heels, and i feel that if i look too long, they will be offended. I wonder sometimes why some do dress that way, if they do not want guys watching, when we hear the sound of their high heels. It is ironic. bI willo never completely understand, but, when i have been out in public dressed up, I think i have felt some of what they must feel.

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    Jean TG, i could not have said it better!! Thank you for clarifying this. Totally agree! I ama male, and despite being highly unusual and super sensitive, far more than most men, and having the ability to dress up, and act "feminine" for a time occasionally, I will never be a woman, or know very much how one is, but we are fellow humans with women, and similar in some ways. But no two people , male or female thinks exactly the same. Like Doc said, i don't even think we completely know ourselves, even!

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    Boys and girls tend to like different things. While yes, those choices should be available to girls, they shouldn't be mandatory for a certain percentage of them. I'd like to add, too, that if you're going to force women to go into stem fields in order to equal the numbers of women in those jobs, then, too, you have to force women into going into grave digging, sewer work, and garbage collection, too.*
    There's a lot wrong with this sort of thinking. I don't think anyone is suggesting that women and girls are forced into positions they don't want. It's about having the same opportunities, and that is affected by historical dominance of men in certain fields. The example of STEM is one that I am familiar with as I've worked in software development all my life. The early days of programming saw a lot of women in computing, partly driven by existing keyboard skills, and there were many around when I began working in the early 80s. One key change at the time was the introduction of home computers which were marketed primarily at boys and dads, and that influence is still apparent today. Just look at the gaming community and GamerGate. These are cultural influences but they have profound consequences with women missing out on great career opportunities. It's also a loss for the IT industry as a lot of talent is missed.

    I reject the notion, famously made by our PM, that there are "boys' jobs and girls' jobs".

    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    Women care about their looks more, because men care more about what women look like than how successful she is at a job.
    Hmm, I'll run that one past my wife. On second thoughts, maybe not.

    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    Because fewer women WANT to go into politics.
    That's like suggesting to the suffragettes that women don't really want to vote.

    And don't get me started on heels

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ineke Vashon View Post
    How refreshing to have a serious discussion on a challenging subject, instead of "what color panties are you wearing today?"
    Yeah that.

    ------------------------------

    Lexi (Sometimes-Miss) I know you truely believe that everthing anyone ever does anywhere and at anytime is driven only by the evolutionary need to shag or be shagged by the highest possible number of the best possible members of the opposite sex, but, and it's a big but, modern society is not actually that simple (maybe for you but not for the rest of us). Is it not possible that a woman may squash her feet into crippling and damaging high heels not because she wants to get the biggest willy available but because she feels society expects it of her or maybe she does it for herself for the way it makes her feel because she thinks society is impressed by it? OR do you really believe that every single woman that ever put on some high heels was determined to be penetrated before she takes them off? Even the happily married middle aged ones that have not looked at another man in 30 years? Really, I've read it all now.

    ------------------------------

    Tracii, while I generally agree with you on this occasion I differ. Men, as women, can be feminists without being a hate figure. Yes those feminists you describe do exist but it is not representative of the principles of feminism, the simply belief that men and women are equally valued and respected by each other. You'll always get extremists with any 'ideology' but it does not mean sensible moderate people can not sign up. The type of event you describe will always attract extremists so you were onto a loser from the start. As men, the question we should ask of ourselves is why do some feminists become the seemingly men hating extremists that they do. I've met meny men that I would say are the root cause of that extremism and it is to them I direct my disrespect.
    Last edited by DaisyLawrence; 10-11-2018 at 03:52 AM. Reason: Grammar

  23. #48
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    JeanTG,
    Look at it the way I do , forget the labels , forget how much of a woman you might be and just go out as Jean . I accept I we will never pass 100% so go with what you have , do your best and let society decide , it has been a revelation to me since I adopted that approach how I'm being accepted by almost everyone . I'm finding people are friendlier and not the opposite as many fear on the forum .

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    This has been an interesting thread as there have been at least two conversations going on at the same time. OK, I'll accept that a lot of that is down to me and a clumsy title as many have quite reasonably taking it to mean something else. But, I suppose if the original post had been read then the point that I was trying to discuss was obvious, but as has been said on another thread, many here look at the title, skim the posts and then post. On my part, lesson learned, I'll be more direct next time I post, and pick a tighter title.

    You see, this thread, and there has been some very good discussion around this point, was that I feel that we as cross dressers can be guilty of cherry picking those bits of femininity that make us happy and yet ignore the everyday disadvantaged position that men, yes we cover a broad spectrum here, but this forum is for cross dressers, so in your posting here it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that, at least to some degree, we all still identify as men, that men place women in, in society.

    I suppose in some ways people here may find that a challenging thing to do, to place themselves in the position of others and think how the world must look from someone else's point of view. And in this case I'm referring specifically to the position of women in a patriarchal society. You see, my take on all of this is that many women take a dim view of cross dressing, not because of it being, to their eyes odd or unacceptable behaviour, but because, we, men, are invading their, women's space.

    I see the problem, not that we're seen by many as girly-men but that we're manly-girls. I think that a lot of this is evidenced here by what I refer to the panty, sex, heel threads which are both common and popular here. Could it not be that from a women's perspective, such threads which objectify specific parts of femininity and pay no regard to how such things are perceived in the real world by real women is what the big turn off for many women is?

    That's the question that I'm trying to address here, that maybe, if we had a bit more empathy with what it's like for women as a whole in an unfair society, then women in society might find a bit more room for us?
    Last edited by Charlotte7; 10-11-2018 at 05:30 AM.

  25. #50
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    I agree that it is good to have such an interesting topic to debate. I think we understand why women want to wear certain clothes to look good and it is NOT to attract a man for most of us and for a large number of women. Yes, there are women who dress to attract men but if you ask a woman why she dresses the way she does you will almost always be told she is doing so for herself. That is also why I do it. It is nice to look good in the mirror and feel good about yourself. There are women who dress conservatively but underneath have gorgeous underwear. No one sees thus underwear but themselves - it makes them feel good. I was at an evening function with a GG friend who had awesome shoes on. She loved them but said she couldn't wear them with men around. There were actually a couple of men in the room apart from me and I was in a dress - it was a fashion show and was not restricted to women anyway. She knew she would be in pain the next day (and she was) because of the shoes but she still wore them because she felt good in them. One of the reasons we became friends is because she loves clothes as much as I do - she is absolutely not attempting to attract men and enjoys getting compliments from women about what she is wearing. In fact one of my main enjoyable things about going out is getting compliments from women about my outfits and understanding why women want the same positive feedback from women is one more thing I have learned about women from crossdressing. Not huge in the great scheme of things. Men do not have the same relationship with make clothes and I have long felt that some women's clothes have a beauty in their own right but only come into that when someone wears them. Women can be incredibly talented about putting a look together with clothes, hair and make-up to the extent that they are actually art installations and some crossdressers - me included - aspire to this level of "getting it right" and completely understand why women might want to do so too. Am I claiming that this means I Understand what it is like to be a woman? Of course not - I haven't a clue. And I don't claim to feel feminine when I dress because I can't imagine what that feels like. I just know how it feels to believe I look good in a dress and heels. Not the context - just the look.

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