As cross dressers do we really *understand* women?

[Roxanne Lanyon]

Thereis a feeling one gets, as a woman. It is quite complex, but oh so lovely. A sort of adoration for femininity. I love this feeling. It makes everything else, love, passion, self awareness, being a lady, possible. And I do adore these possibilities!
Roxanne's World, Is Quite Lovely"
Roxanne

[DaisyLawrence]

I think that a lot of this is evidenced here by what I refer to the panty, sex, heel threads which are both common and popular here. Could it not be that from a women's perspective, such threads which objectify specific parts of femininity and pay no regard to how such things are perceived in the real world by real women is what the big turn off for many women is?

That's the question that I'm trying to address here, that maybe, if we had a bit more empathy with what it's like for women as a whole in an unfair society, then women in society might find a bit more room for us?

Those last three lines sum it up perfectly Charlotte. I couldn't agree more. I could reinforce it with my personal experience with regards to my totally accepting and encouraging wife. Whilst she loves my mixed gender approach to life there are still things that would be a huge turn off. She likes nothing more than to help me select clothing and styles but these invariably settle on the look of a comforatble casual everyday woman (just what I want myself). Never any feminine sex appeal (fine by me). If I am going out as the 'full Daisy' (a woman, not androgenous as normal) then it is the very smallest boobs possible, my natural hair, just enough makup to cover the facial hair, no short skirts or high heels, and so on. She loves it but if I suddenly decided I would prefer the sexy woman look it would turn her off completely, guaranteed. Items that objectify women as sex objects like high heels would be rejected with venom even though she has no problem with women wearing them if it works for them. I understand her thinking and fortunately we are of one mind about this. The result is the image of a person that says 'female' if you look hard enough to decide what gender you are dealing with, NOT one that says FEMALE. By and large, meeting other women out and about has nothing but a positive reaction if they do clock that they are dealing with a genetic man (usually when I open my gob). I doubt I would get the same reaction if I was strutting around in a leather mini skirt and 5" stilettos. Having said that, during daytime my wife would have the same contempt for a genetic woman dressed like that.

[GretchenM]

I have actually gone out and asked the women I know well (mostly relatives) why they dress in the style that they do? Invariably, the answer is essentially because it fits who they are. In other words it expresses who they perceive themselves to be in the whole package. It is practical and makes them feel right. I also asked whether there is any desire to dress so as to attract men? The answer is either rarely or never. Do men dress to attract women? I suspect the answer is pretty much the same as the women's answer - rarely or never.

My wife tells me that women in general tend to dress for practical purposes - that is, what they wear fits the situation. Sometimes that includes sexiness. Usually, that is not present. With myself, when I dress, whether it is fully dressed (rarely) or various degrees of androgynous expression, I put on what I put on because it fits who I am internally. I am not very concerned about what others see or feel. And I think most pure males do that as well. It is what is appropriate. I don't dress to feel feminine; I feel feminine long before I dress.

But that leads me to a conclusion that people should be allowed to be who they are. And to those men who think women should always express very feminine I say you are barking up the wrong tree. In fact, a study done many years ago that examined how gender characteristics affects marital success and happiness in women found that the most unhappy women were those who were married to strongly masculine men that limit her freedom to be herself. And the happiest women were those that were married to the more sensitive, caring, and understanding men. That is, the somewhat feminine male - not necessarily transgender, but men who are willing to show femininity when appropriate.

Makes sense as that kind of relationship is open, accepting, and full of at least fairly good communication. Conclusion? Men should lighten up on the restrictions on women and treat them with respect and allow them to be professional wrestlers or iron workers on the top of a 100 story skyscraper if that is what they want. And, women should do the same. Once again. Share, cooperate, collaborate, respect each other.

[Teresa]

Gretchen,
One question , when you discussed this topic with your wife did the point about the cycle of dressing down come into it ? Would your wife dress up more if everyone else still did ? I recall the days when budgets were tight and an evening out was something special , women appeared to love the opportunity to put something special on . Not because of social pressures but simply to feel good and a little special . I do miss the days when going out with my wife I could put on some nice trousers and shirt a nice tie and brush my shoes up , in some respects we were proud of each other , I hope we made an attractive couple .

I can remember when certain venues wouldn't allow the man in without a tie and no jeans and trainers were allowed , somehow I feel so many people have joined that culture and women have partly given up on femininity .She can't shift hubby off the sofa watching his sport and the kids all have their heads burried in games machines , so the easy solution is order a takeaway !

I don't fully accept the notion women were forced into heels because of social pressures , we all know what ceratin items we enjoy to make us feel special and maybe a little sexy , to me that's a female trait which many women would possibly like to return to .

[GretchenM]

Hi Teresa,

Very good question. Unfortunately, I did not inquire about that specifically. But after half a century together I can tell you that her gender expression has clearly followed the trend toward less feminine attire. Rarely a dress or skirt, her heels have to be excavated from a dust bunny (not really) and she only has one pair that gets worn once or twice a year if at all. Very different from the way it was back around 1970. That said she was always a trouser girl for the most part but more formal and feminine dress was much more commonly worn. She followed the trends and sometimes, I think, led the trends in clothes.

But as for her real femininity, that is, the internal identity that has changed very little and in fact has probably become stronger in some ways. In spite of our spending a week backpacking many, many miles around a wilderness several times in our younger days or climbing tough mountains in the Rockies, she has always been a pretty girly girl. So, this is where my own sense that distinguishes between gender identity and gender expression comes from. Identity is internal; expression is external and does not necessarily parallel the identity except when that is appropriate. Sometimes, my wife and I look somewhat similar when it comes to dress - she is usually casual female and I am usually casual male with a touch of the feminine. That might be a bit unusual in the UK, but here in Denver and the American West that is a somewhat common pattern that couples show except in somewhat or very formal settings. There males and females are usually very distinguishable.

Gretchen

[Stacy Darling]

Knowing that one is not a Woman, and Knowing that one does not wish to present as a Man, is KEY here!

Letting go of your pre-taught male ways, and embracing the more inner femme ways is not about changing the dynamics of the human race! It is about being who you are!

Politics, religion and sex aside!

[Charlotte7]

Not PHYSICAL violence. But women tear into us psychologicolly often.

In nature, there are about 105 boys born for every 100 girls, this is true all over the world. The places where it is different, is due to aborting the females before they are born, in order to have a son.

Because fewer women WANT to go into politics.

Because success in the workplace has little to do with how successful a female is in passing along her dna to the next generation. So it's of less importance to most women.

Women care about their looks more, because men care more about what women look like than how successful she is at a job. Corporations are more likely to be run by men, because men are more likely to compete for the top most financially lucrative positions.

In the free world, it comes down to what a woman will think attracts those who she wants to mate with. Styles that enhance attraction succeed, and styles that repulse get dropped. Workplace attire in jobs where it's not at all important to be attractive, are the exception, exhibited say, by diving suits and scrub clothes of doctors and nurses.


Women mainly wear heels to enhance the appearance of longer legs which is reminiscent of young, just 'past puberty' females, indicating fertility but limited exposure to disease, so it's probably got a genetic connection to it. Heels also change the shape of the leg and butt, in ways which often enhance the percentage of men who find that woman attractive.


Simple. Women who wear heels get more sexual attention from men, so those women have a wider choice of mates.


Women aren't satisfied with their figures, because they aren't able to adequately attract a particular man or group of men. This is most evident when a woman is trying to attract a guy who isn't interested in her body type. It also comes into play when she already HAS a male mate, who's interest is waning, so she might think by changing something about her body she may re-ignite the same passion that he had for her before. This goes against a male's natural impulse to have sex with as many different females as possible (the Coolidge effect).


They pressure THEMSELVES into trying to be something they are not. There is no universal ideal woman. men vary in what we are attracted to. You might find Dolly Parton figures the best. I might prefer Twiggy. How is either of them the unachievalbe ideal woman? Simple. Women try to be something that they are not, in order to try to attract a guy who isn't interested in what she is. Instead, it would be better for her to choose a mate out of those who DO find her attractive, just as it is better for men to do this. I believe the old saying is, 'Barking up the wrong tree'.



The problem with their feet, comes from wearing shoes that don't fit. Women put a priority on how a shoe looks, rather than how it feels to wear.


The problem comes when we try to force what we think should be equal. For example, forcing girls into the stem fields whether they want to do it, or not, all because WE think that they should like to do that. You can't tell someone that they have to enjoy something. Either they like it, or they don't. Boys and girls tend to like different things. While yes, those choices should be available to girls, they shouldn't be mandatory for a certain percentage of them. I'd like to add, too, that if you're going to force women to go into stem fields in order to equal the numbers of women in those jobs, then, too, you have to force women into going into grave digging, sewer work, and garbage collection, too. Because women are far under represented in those fields, too. Would you feel comfortable telling girls that they have to go into one of those careers?

It has taken me a couple of days to be able to respond to this. I think that I have now calmed down enough.

I have quoted this more of less in full as I think that the full import of what is said here stands a second reading. The system has omitted where I was being quoted but the whole thing can be seen at #31

I could not disagree more with every single point that is made here. I know that I am constrained by forum rules and I will leave it at that. If I were to say what I really want to say, I would probably not only be suspended but I would be banned.

This is why I started this thread, because, many here don't seem to understand women, they don't seem to have a clue what it's like to be born female and to live a female life. They have avatars which project images of idealised femininity and yet, just under the surface, they seemingly have no respect for that which they strive to emulate.

I am left both baffled and saddened.

Actually, perhaps we ought to think what effect that this post might have in the wider world. We know that there are many lurkers who view and read these threads and who never join and who never post. That's fine, but I would encourage everyone who finds themselves viewing these pages to join up as we can all learn and we all have something that we can pass on to others. What does a post like this say to them?

But, more than that, we know that the forum is used as a resource by women who discover that their partner cross dresses. Indeed, some partners are pointed to this site for them to use as a means of finding out that as a group we're just normal people who live life in a particular way. Now, I might suggest that such women might be drawn into reading this thread as it could be considered to be an important topic. I for one can't imagine what someone who was seeking to find out about us as a group would think should they read the response at #31. I actually fear it could do damage.

But, on the flip side, there have been many, many more heartening responses which give me cause for optimism.

Now, in posting this I really do hope that I haven't crossed any lines, it's not my intention to, but surely, at times we can and should have a robust debate.

[Teresa]

Charlotte,
I'm not conviced women do see it that way , I did feel that might be the case when I started coming out but very few if any give me that impression . I'm not claiming I pass but I don't feel I'm seen as a man who is invading anyone's space even my wife has never picked up on that point . In fact the exact opposite has been more than evident .

The question is do we overthink these issues , the people that succeed the most are the ones that believe in themselves and live their lives accordingly . That is why I don't concern myself with labels anymore , I see people as people often gender doesn't come into it , if a person is amiable to be with , that's how I see myself as Teresa , gender is secondary .

[sometimes_miss]

Charlotte, the thread was do we understand women, not do we blindly accept what they tell us. Just because someone tells you why they do something, doesn't mean that's actually always true. Indeed, WE are a perfect example. Ask a crossdresser why he does it, and you'll get all kinds of answers, many of which make no sense at all. Much of it is clouded by our beliefs and feelings from when we grew up, making us feel terrible about doing it, so we desperately grab at any idea which absolves us of any responsibility regarding making a decision to crossdress. So it's no surprise that when women who are asked why they do things, just might not be giving you an accurate answer either. I base my responses here on observations and what I've read in the many psychology books over the years. Sure, I may be wrong, but just telling me that I'm wrong because it might make a woman feel bad about why she's doing something, doesn't necessarily make it wrong. Much of our behavior is influenced by our need to procreate. Both men and women spend enormous percentages of our time doing things in order to increase the likelihood that we will have sex and that our progeny will survive. We're still stuck in a society where sex is considered a bad thing to be hidden away, that women should be ashamed to admit to enjoying sex with more than one man, that she should never initiate it, etc.. The recent turmoil in the U.S. revolved around a (theoretical) incident which involved teenagers who obviously wanted to have sex, but both sides had to get themselves intoxicated in order to even attempt to go through with it, and both sides were vulnerable to being shamed for how they did it; women, for getting themselves into a position where she would have sex at all, and men, for needing to prove their masculinity by ignoring being told no, otherwise he'd be seen as less of a man; after all, how often have we been told that no means maybe, and maybe means yes, so just keep on doing it? After all, we were (and many still are) told, any girl dressed like that obviously 'wants it'? I know I've heard that from other guys when I was growing up, and it seems for many of the younger generation, nothing's changed. I can't speak for everyone here, but back then, the assumption was that girls like sex too, but that they have to pretend that they don't because it isn't proper. It's a crazy way to live, and we're still stuck with a lot of that.

but if you ask a woman why she dresses the way she does you will almost always be told she is doing so for herself. That is also why I do it. It is nice to look good in the mirror and feel good about yourself.

So it's just a coincidence that what looks good in the mirror also just happens to be what emphasizes her shape, displays her legs, and enhances the shape of her waist curve and her breasts, essentially, the same things that make her sexually attractive to men? Wow, what a coincidence.

There are women who dress conservatively but underneath have gorgeous underwear. No one sees thus underwear but themselves

And we've heard time and time again, about women who make sure that they're wearing good underwear when they're going out on a date to impress, but keep the 'old ratty underwear' for other times. I wonder why any women keep wearing old worn underwear if it makes them feel so bad about themselves, instead of wearing nice stuff if it's that important? Is it only important to feel good about herself sometimes?

she is absolutely not attempting to attract men and enjoys getting compliments from women about what she is wearing.

I had this discussion with a gay woman, who also insisted that she never wore clothes to attract a man; which on the face of it, made sense, but she DID admit to wearing figure hugging outfits that just 'might' be what men find attractive. I find it interesting that what women wear to feel good about themselves, is also just the exact same thing as what makes them attractive to men. After all, they could wear sweats if all that was important was comfort. Girls know from a very early age how to adjust their appearance in order to get the attention of men, and this carries over into adulthood; Having been doing it their entire lives, they seem to automatically connect what just coincidentally is attractive to men, as 'looking good', whether they're actively trying to attract a mate or not.

I doubt I would get the same reaction if I was strutting around in a leather mini skirt and 5" stilettos. Having said that, during daytime my wife would have the same contempt for a genetic woman dressed like that.

You'd have contempt for a woman who's obviously dressing in a way that just happens to attract guys? Wow. I'd hoped that maybe we'd started to leave the puritanical 'sex is always bad' concept in the last century. The whole idea that a woman (or a man) must hide parts of her body away because no one should be allowed to see the 'naughty' parts is, and always has been, ridiculous. Just because the religious institutions shower us with shame because their desires run counter to whaw people really want, doesn't make THEM right, either. Short skirts are bad? Why? Going braless is bad? Why? Why are people so ashamed of certain body parts being visible? Religion. That's why. Because we are told it's bad. By some of the very same people who violate those very beliefs in the worst way.

[susan54]

So it's just a coincidence that what looks good in the mirror also just happens to be what emphasizes her shape, displays her legs, and enhances the shape of her waist curve and her breasts, essentially, the same things that make her sexually attractive to men? Wow, what a coincidence.

And we've heard time and time again, about women who make sure that they're wearing good underwear when they're going out on a date to impress, but keep the 'old ratty underwear' for other times. I wonder why any women keep wearing old worn underwear if it makes them feel so bad about themselves, instead of wearing nice stuff if it's that important? Is it only important to feel good about herself sometimes?

I find this reply a bit troubling. It seems to venture into the "all women who try to look nice are temptresses" camp. They are not. I agree that what people tell you isn't necessarily true - or a lie - people can be fooling themselves. How can a woman who is wearing classy underwear under conservative clothes but not on a date be doing so to attract men? She is doing it for herself.

So ... because I wear an outfit that gives me a good figure and shows my shapely legs that I am trying to attract men? I know I am not. This is not me deceiving myself. I avoid men when I go out dressed - it is not difficult to do and I have to put little effort into it. While agreeing that there are situations where women dress to "pull" many women who have partners put much more effort into what they wear when they are on a girls night out than when they are out with their partner. They are dressing primarily for themselves and other women. This is not them pulling the wool over our eyes or their own - it is what happens in real life.

I get this knowledge by observation, reading (stuff written by women) and by listening to women. It has nothing to do with me crossdressing. What I am claiming is that for some of us we are getting similar satisfaction from dressing as women do - so that enable sus to relate to certain aspects of their relationship with their clothing. Not all, just some. But the crossdressing aids the understanding less than listening to (and reading) what women are saying to us and to each other. I don't think any man or transgender person is in a position to say these women are being dishonest. I am convinced they are not.

[GretchenM]

I agree with Susan that Sometimes_miss is placing way too much emphasis on the attracting men aspect of women's dressing. I am sure there are women who take that approach and if that is what is the case then that is fine. But I seriously doubt a vast majority of women do that and most of the time it doesn't even occur to them when the choose their clothes for the day.

Perhaps what is happening is transferring the stronger sexual drive often found in males to females. Females have different perspectives on sex than males. In the the movie "City Slickers" there was a great line that is probably far more the truth than most people imagine. I am paraphrasing here just a bit. "When it comes to sex men just need a place. Women need a reason." If she is looking at all she is looking for a person to establish a relationship with; sex just becomes a part of that when there is a reason to have sex. And I think there is too much connecting sex and gender in the point of view of clothes being a sexual attractant. There is a connection to be sure, but a vast majority of the time it appears to be a weak one. Emotional connection is far more important than physical attraction. And making emotional connections come from a source far, far deeper than something as superficial as clothes.

Charlotte, I support your post (#57) and your perspective on the quoted comments from Sometimes_miss. You expressed some deep concern about what was said and I agree with that. That said, she does have a right to express those views. One can learn a great deal from information whether it is supportive or not. I will leave it at that and let those who are following this fascinating thread decide for themselves which perspective makes the most sense. But personally I also find what Sometimes-miss has said in her posts to be very concerning for others, mainly lurkers, who read that and wonder, "Who are these people?" We are a diverse lot and some are very different from others. Not good; not bad. It is just the way it is. I also think there is somewhat of the distinction appearing between actually transgender people who may have a much deeper gender reversal in their personality than people that have very little gender reversal but dress in the clothes of the opposite gender for other reasons. Superficially, they may look very much alike, but deeper down they may be very different people.

[Karine]

Very very interesting thread Charlotte.
Just my two cents (sorry for my English).

Do I understand women better since I start to crossdress ?
Yes but only on superficial aspects:
- Yes, Heels are great but paintful.
- Yes, good makeup (more expensive) makes a difference.
- Yes, I always like to try new styles and buy new clothes. Fashion is cool.
- Yes, wearing bra can be uncomfortable at last.
Furthermore, many women don't like all this stuff. For some, being feminine is squarely a society constraint.

In the other hand, I don't have to face all their daily struggles.
- Having less money than men for the same work.
- Creepy behaviour from creepy men.
- Sexual harassment at work.
- Domestic violence.
- And this list is not comprehensive.
(Don't get me wrong, women can do despicable things too)

I try to understand women and help as I would do for any human being whatever is being male, gay, whatever.
I have always been empathetic, trying to put myself in the other person's shoes.
As I often say, women are not all the same. what, maybe, we could do as a human being is helping or rather let women be whoever they want to be (being feminine/not being feminine, having a great career,..).

Do crossdressers really understand women ?
Nope. It's not because you're a crossdresser that you would have empathy.
I started crossdressing 6/7 years ago. Trying to understand, I browsed the internet and read many crossdressers'stories, forums, ..
What I understand is that each of us is very very different; the only thing we have in common for sure is that we like to wear women'clothes.
And we do it for many different reasons, in many different ways.

Karine.

[Rebecca60]

For me to understand them is very different more different if I'm crossdresser mode because I'm not women. Sometime I think they don't understand themselves. Each person is unique and comes with its own set patterns.. In male mode I always try to help them out as best I can. Even pull off the road to help change a tire. Again if I was in high heels and helping change a tire, it just might not work .. but I came across a few that would ask for a wrench and change their own tire. Very good question .