Early warning that feminine beauty standards may be shifting!

[phili]

Reine made a point elsewhere about CDs promoting beauty standards that women are getting tired of as oppressive.

Today the worldwide news is that South Korean women have revolted, and are throwing off those chains. https://www.google.com/search?q=sout...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I'm musing about this- I'm trying to separate out expressing my femininity from the idea of my being sexually attractive via the dress and grooming ideas that are now being questioned. It may just be a revolt against having to spend too much money and time, and it will actually just be easier for us to signal femininity, via clothes without extensive makeup- or the movement may grow and render outdated the whole need for crossdressing?

[Micki_Finn]

I don’t think what’s going on in Korea is really that indicative of the world at large. Asian culture is very different from western, and Korea is even pretty unique among Asian countries.

[docrobbysherry]

I don't think this will effect most CD's. We tend to out dress most women as it is. Maybe this applies to TS's?

[Alice Torn]

I can understand some of their anger. Women are too often just considered sex and beauty objects. Men have suffered equally, being considered success objects, and if a man is not "successful" or a "stud", considered a failure or loser, often. Cruel world we have been in for a long time.

[Helen_Highwater]

While trawling to shops this week it did seem that store after store had rack after rack of trousers, pullovers and a few sparkly "Christmas do" dresses. Blouses and skirts, hardly one to be seen.

Observing mixed groups dining the other night it was hard to separate the sexes clothing wise. The fact that it was a 4 star hotel didn't seem to count for anything.The guys were dressed like they were eating in a Mcdonalds. It did make me wonder if modern male is to blame. Is it they who've dressed down when going out, not bothering to put something that little bit smarter on for a night out instead sticking with jeans, trainers, tee shirt or hoodie. Let's face in, if you're a GG you're going to get pretty fed up of going to great lengths to make yourself look nice if the fella in your life is going out like he's off to watch a football match.

As ye sow, so ye shall reap?

[LilSissyStevie]

Last time I checked, no one was forcing anybody to be attractive. And if they are, it isn't working considering how many unattractive people there are. By definition, no matter what the standards of beauty are, the vast majority will fail to meet them. If we suddenly decide that hirsute people over 400lbs with bad acne are the most attractive, the vast majority will still be "oppressed" by this standard. I think I'll just continue to like what pleases me and dress how I want.

[sometimes_miss]

We went through this sort of thing back when women were burning their bras in the 60's. Then, of course, the ones who paid more attention to their looks, got all the choice husbands. Then the importance of being good looking was somehow re-discovered. What a surprise.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Beverley Sims]

Phili, our problem is we do need to look like a woman first.

[Teresa]

Helen,
I made this point a while ago , men don't dress for the occasion any more on the whole . I would think you could name hotels / smart restaurants that would expect a man to wear a jacket and tie , definitely no trainers and jeans , now it's very much the norm I feel women are saying if you can't beat them then join them , so we have a whole culture of dressing down . I always wore a suit with tie to photograph my weddings out of respect to the wedding party , I also felt professional .

I've been on several cruises now and really enjoy the formal dining nights , it makes the whole evening feel very special , I have to admit my bucket list does include a cruise totally as Teresa , then the formal dining will be like going to heaven !

Phili,
It looks like it's left to the TG/ CD community to keep flying the flag , at the moment I don't see any let up of women buying makeup in the High Street , in fact more and more brands keep appearing . The bottom line is makeup enhances the features if can make the ordinary look beautiful , women will never tire of that , as a CDer I feel privileged to be able to experience that , now I've disovered it I won't give it up lightly .

[Teresa]

Stephanie,
Not in total agreement , some women love their makeup , they don't need an excuse to want to look good , it pleases them more than anyone else . I worked with a lovely mature lady in a plant nursery even in that sitaution you would never catch her without her " Lippy !" as she called it . She enjoyed being a woman and that's what it meant to her .

[Rachelish]

Last time I checked, no one was forcing anybody to be attractive.

Don't underestimate the power of patriarchy. A woman here in the UK lost a case after being made to wear heels to work.

As CDs we should perhaps be especially aware of the dangers of stereotyping.

On the OP, we should, of course, be allowed to express ourselves in any way we want but equally we can't complain about how women choose to do the same.

[Tracii G]

Rachelish the feminists stereotype trans people all the time and lump us into one group MEN.
They do not accept us at all because we are still men technically speaking.
I have had my share of run ins with feminists both male and female and the way they treated me was enough for me to really dislike them a lot.
Its not all unicorns and rainbows like some CDs think.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Plenty of men also resent having to be something they are not. No man is an island, and almost everyone is beholden to someone for something. I am sure men also don't appreciate being viewed as wallets with legs by (some) women. How often do feminist circles rail against the financial exploitation of men by (some) women?

[curvious]

Well, Well, Well, And we never thought the 80's would end either. Big Hair, Big shoulder pads, lots of make-up and vibrant spandex & biks short craze. But there we were in 1990 watching all the women around us, don cargo pants and plaid Woolrich shirts. History repeats itself. I think change is coming. Reading women's catalogs, leggings are still in, but so many more women are switching to bootcut yoga pants or casual French Terry Joggers instead of leggings. I think within the next few years we will look back repulsed, we showed so much of our body in leggings.

Like the tube sock to low sock and back to calf-length bro socks. Short dhorts to long baggie cargos and (slowly) back to short shorts for men... Change is coming.

[Tracii G]

Terry joggers went out of style in the 90's and please don't wear them LOLOL

[Rachelish]

Rachelish the feminists stereotype trans people all the time and lump us into one group MEN.
They do not accept us at all because we are still men technically speaking.
I have had my share of run ins with feminists both male and female and the way they treated me was enough for me to really dislike them a lot.

Tracii

I don't doubt your experiences with some people who identify themselves as feminist, and there are some more extreme elements here in the UK too but overall feminism is seen as a positive force, aimed at equality of opportunity and respect for women. Perhaps it's just another example of a label having different meanings in different contexts.

Its not all unicorns and rainbows like some CDs think.

That's lost on me, sorry.

Rachel

[Charlotte7]

To get a good perspective on this whole debate this is worth a read, and then, having read the link, reading the book would be too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beauty_Myth

OK, there are sometimes tensions between the trans community and the feminist world, but not all feminists are anti trans, not are all women who are anti trans feminisits. As a intro to this debate this is worth a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femini...sgender_topics

[Micki_Finn]

Rachelish the feminists stereotype trans people all the time and lump us into one group MEN.
They do not accept us at all because we are still men technically speaking.
I have had my share of run ins with feminists both male and female and the way they treated me was enough for me to really dislike them a lot.
Its not all unicorns and rainbows like some CDs think.

Yeah I hate it when people make generalizations about an entire group...

[Rachelish]

Yeah I hate it when people make generalizations about an entire group...

My point exactly.

[LilSissyStevie]

Don't underestimate the power of patriarchy.

I'd completely forgotten about the all powerful Patriarchy™ and how GGs are so feeble minded they can't think for themselves. I would have loved to have been at the meeting of the Patriarchy™ when they decided to force women to believe that neon colored hair, neck tattoos and hog rings in their nose was attractive. But I was busy serving tea and cakes to the Illuminati in my new maid outfit. However, it does show that the Patriarchy™ has a wicked sense of humor.

[Charlotte7]

I'd completely forgotten about the all powerful Patriarchy™ and how GGs are so feeble minded they can't think for themselves.

As you can see from this link (https://www.infoplease.com/us/gender...omens-suffrage) you'll see that however strong women were and indeeed are, and yes however able they are to think for themselves, it wasn't until 1893, in New Zealand, that women first got the right to vote anywhere in the world. So, who could vote before 1893? Who made the laws before 1893? Who controlled everything before 1893? Makes you think doesn't it.

[Rachelish]

I'd completely forgotten about the all powerful Patriarchy™ and how GGs are so feeble minded they can't think for themselves. I would have loved to have been at the meeting of the Patriarchy™ when they decided to force women to believe that neon colored hair, neck tattoos and hog rings in their nose was attractive. But I was busy serving tea and cakes to the Illuminati in my new maid outfit. However, it does show that the Patriarchy™ has a wicked sense of humor.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood that but I think you're saying that women are perfectly capable of making their own choices in how they present themselves, without the influence of men, but that then it's ok to criticise those choices for not being feminine enough, which does illustrate the problem rather nicely.

[Gillian Gigs]

What goes around, comes around, whether it be a circle, or a mobius strip, every thing seems to come back. On the male side of things, I wore ties in the early 70's that came from an Uncle who wore the ties in the late 40's, to early 50's, and guess what they were in style again not that long ago. Skirt lengths go up and then down, as long as the makers have a sucker who is willing to buy it, they will keep on doing this over and over.

As far as the "Patriarchy" goes, they finally have a rival in a "Matriarchy" which is making more sense every day. Why do you think that the third world patriarchy is pushing so hard against women...because they are afraid, and they should be.

Maybe CD'ers need to help find the middle ground for the two groups. Extremes are not healthy, just look at politics.

[LilSissyStevie]

Forgive me if I've misunderstood that but I think you're saying that women are perfectly capable of making their own choices in how they present themselves, without the influence of men, but that then it's ok to criticise those choices for not being feminine enough, which does illustrate the problem rather nicely.

I didn't say they weren't feminine enough. I implied they weren't attractive. I don't think so, anyway. At least not according to my taste. Most women wouldn't find the sight of me in a dress attractive either, but I don't whine about The Matriarchy being the reason.

[Rachelish]

I didn't say they weren't feminine enough. I implied they weren't attractive. I don't think so, anyway. At least not according to my taste. Most women wouldn't find the sight of me in a dress attractive either, but I don't whine about The Matriarchy being the reason.

That's because it's not the reason and nobody has suggested it is. Men don't complain about women having more than their fair share of power and influence because that not the reality of the situation.

Women are not whining when they're campaigning for equality of opportunity and respect, whether that's suffragettes protesting (and indeed dying) for the right to vote, women in Saudi Arabia winning the right to drive a car, or indeed (returning to the OP) South Koreans resisting the pressure to look a certain way. My point is that feminism is a very broad term, that it is fundamentally a positive (and necessary) force and that we should be wary of pointing to a small group who look and act a certain way and calling that feminism.