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Thread: Non Binary - I changed my opinion

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    Non Binary - I changed my opinion

    I started to post this as a reply in another thread but before posting I decided it was too far off topic so I started this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimdl93 View Post
    Wow, Kelly I was a bit surprised to hear the words. Startling as they seemed when I read them, I guess it further reinforces the view that, given time and opportunity, we will tend towards binary...one way or the other.
    I would respectfully disagree with the end of that comment - we will tend toward binary. I have evolved in my opinion of non binary people. So much so that I believe if I was in my 20s I may be living as non binary. It doesn't feel comfortable to me at this point in my life, however, a lot of people in a different age group are identifying as NB or gender- non conforming or queer or androgynous etc etc. If I were to put myself on a stereotypical gender spectrum 10 being girly girl and 1 being alpha male I would probably say around a 6 or 7.

    But I do believe in a gender spectrum - it's what's in our heads not between our legs. Well in my case it's an orchie :-D but I digress.

    I am more comfortable as binary probably because I feel people are more accepting of me being transgender than presenting multiple ways on different days. But I get it. I used to think that everyone identifying as NB was in denial of being full blown transgender and afraid of transitioning. I have grown.

    Transitioning was the right thing for me but I have become more accepting and open minded = less judgmental. I think for some people being non binary is their truth.
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 10-16-2018 at 01:41 AM. Reason: fixed quoting mechanism

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    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    we're a spectrum "and some". I have a very binary NB friend, who wakes each day to discover the day's gender - in effect zhe is a dual personality that changes during sleep. For them, there is no choice each day, no middle ground. And then I have another friend, and they're allover the spectrum on a whim.

    When a system is to return to balance that has been biased one way, it needs enough time on the other side of the balance point to reach an equilibrium, otherwise known as "critical damping" in physics.

    xxx
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    I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.

    thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er

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    Kymberly,
    I'm going to agree with your statement that it's in our heads and not between our legs , OK it is an obvious remark but the public don't know what anatomy we have and what we don't and it really doesn't bother them . They see what they want to see and make conclusions from that . I'm afraid the basic label most will use is crossdresser some may say trans beyond that the labels don't mean that much to most people .

    While I understand the term binary or non-binary which I believe comes from the medical profession , I have to admit it's a label I dislike intensly , to me it dehumanises us , we have become a box that you either tick yes or no . As Pamela says sprectrum is a better description , I also agree that dressing is hard work and all too easy to slide back to dressing on a whim . The problem is there's no satisfaction in that , the needs aren't being met , I know my days are much more satisfying and I'm happier being Teresa , that is what I want the World to see and that is the only label I really need .

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    Member Mirya's Avatar
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    I personally believe that the vast majority of people who identify as non-binary are in denial. Maybe it’s their way of rebelling against society (usually younger generation). Or maybe they have internalized shame about being TS. Or maybe they have internalized shame about wanting to wear women’s clothes. Whatever the reason, they are likely either men or women who either can’t figure out or accept the truth about who they really are.

    I admit that being NB is a genuine condition, and some people are genuinely NB, but I believe the actual number of NB people is significantly less than that of TS people. (You would think there are more NB people than TS people given the level of activity you see in transgender discussions on the internet).

    Earlier this year, there was an interesting thread in the NB forum here which led me to confirm this: https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...m-My-Therapist

    Quote from the original post in that thread:
    The interesting thing about the conversation was my therapists reply. She said that about 90% of her clients that state they are non-binary eventually shift to one side or the other. I was blown away by that stat and it has continued to rattle about. She also stated that her opinion is that non-binary, for most people, is a nice holding ground, an in-between state, but rarely permanent in her experience. For general reference - her experience is about 15-20 years in working with a gender diverse population and about the last 10 years specializing solely in gender counseling. She made sure to reiterate that not everybody goes to one side or the other, just most in her experience.

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    happy to be her Sarah Doepner's Avatar
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    It might be that I'm older and haven't been paying attention, but I haven't seen very many androgynous appearing seniors wandering the streets these days. One of the things I tried to practice in crossdressing was age appropriate clothing and I just can't see myself in skinny jeans and just a little makeup. The thought of it makes me nervous so it's not likely I'm going to try that type of presentation. So my version of non-binary is still one full presentation or the other, not the middle ground. I'm guessing it's the version of gender I grew up with and almost wish it were more comfortable for me to mix and match or decide from day to day how I'm going to dress. So is it a generational thing or am I just not seeing the whole picture of my generation?

    I admire those who have the full range of choices and the confidence to be comfortable anywhere along the spectrum. But on my presentation, I guess I'm more inflexible than I thought I would be on this issue. But that's me, and while I'm still non-binary I reside very close to the ends of that spectrum, not in the middle.
    Sarah
    Being transgender isn't a lifestyle choice. How you deal with it is.

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    Sarah - I think it is a generational thing from my personal observations. More young people identify as NB. Society is becoming more accepting of that at least in progressive communities. I am 58 although I wish I was cis female therefore I definitely fit as being transgender my gender identification has never wavered in my life. I feel more emotionally and mentally female than male. But I do fall on a place on the spectrum that I 'get' how NB people may feel. I still am in touch with certain male aspects of my personality and preferences but undeniably female.

    Miyra - Thank you for the clarification !! I did not go into enough detail in my OP. I do believe MANY people identifying as NB are in denial or afraid to take the plunge. I think even going so far as saying most is reasonable. But I do think that for some that identify as NB it is truly who they are. I have always had enough male tendencies to at least get the concept that I feel a little of both genders. Just more female.

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    I do think binary is easier for the surroundings to deal with. I like to look passable when going out as well, at home I rarely bother that much. I am slowly getting more comfortable to not try to pass either way though.

    My current thinking about myself is I'm NB-TG; not comfortable as a man, not claiming to be simply woman, though I'd prefer to be. Growing up in the body and space marked "boy" had it's effect, and my feeling of not fitting in that and awareness of any options wasn't concious or there. Started out in a CD crowd when I became aware. Never did think of myself as a man that likes to crossdress/express though, didn't end there. Half the time I'm okay just "being" - I'm not constantly feeling being a particular gender, "being a man" doesn't sit well with me - don't keep on reminding me, and "being a woman" wasn't and isn't an absolute feeling - though always nice. Not too at odds with my body, and having added some breast growth gives me some peace of mind, though could use a bit more... I won't subscribe to a definition absolutely, I've had the thought I might be called something like low-urgency TS; I'd go for it if I was happy with the options and they were easy enough; my need or discomfort just aren't that great. On balance, doubtful if I'd be happier going much further from here. I don't think I'm a NB in the sense that I enjoy my male side, I just think it's there, which makes me fall in the NB-bit of the spectrum.

    NB, spectrum, cross-the-box, the term thing... To me, NB overlaps with the spectrum concept, it's averything but the end areas - or including both, not just the one end. So no need to specify spot or area on the spectrum, you don't have to be sure. Or if defined narrowly, mid-spectrum. Add null for the set.

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    Taru - Your description tells me that we are at least on the same chapter of the book if not the same page. I began my transition and even the decision to do so believing in a gender spectrum. I was swayed by arguments by friends that a gender spectrum is BS but in the end I have came back full circle to where I started with that belief.

    It's not the same for everyone - hence the term SPECTRUM.

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    Just do it already! DaisyLawrence's Avatar
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    I absolutely concur with what Taru wrote, especially this bit: "My current thinking about myself is I'm NB-TG; not comfortable as a man, not claiming to be simply woman, though I'd prefer to be. Growing up in the body and space marked "boy" had it's effect..."

    Also the other point that Taru made that resonates with me is this: "I do think binary is easier for the surroundings to deal with" and this is where the problems lie for NB identifying people. We live in a binary world and everything is expected to fall into one camp or the other. I may well be convinced that I am a mixed and non-binary gender but even I can see that sitting on the fence is not sitting comfortably in society. Even I can see the advantages of going backwards or moving forwards to womanhood. I sometimes present myself as a woamn and am comfortable with this but probably only because I am just another person out and about that happens to be a woman. Presenting as what I think of as my 'true' self can be less comfortable, especially if my androgenous approach is a little too feminie in the clothing choice over the obviously male body. This lack of comfort comes not from within but from the conflict I create with the binary world around me.

    Taru, you mentioned some breast growth, can I ask if you have chosen HRT as part of the route to your current NB/TG gender identity?

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    Kymberly,

    This resonates with me...

    Quote Originally Posted by KymberlyOct View Post
    If I were to put myself on a stereotypical gender spectrum 10 being girly girl and 1 being alpha male I would probably say around a 6 or 7.
    I came to the conclusion that I fell on the TG Spectrum, but NB was confusing to me. Realizing that I was more female than male, I coined my identity as transgender near-female, which makes sense to me.


    I also relate to Taru's and Daisy's thoughts.

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    Labels schmabels.

    I was going to refrain from posting here any longer, but this is an interesting thread. I am absolutely convinced gender and gender variance is a spectrum. I wrestle with my label all the time. I like transgender woman for me. Or maybe even transfem. While I’ve always wished i was a woman, I’m not one. As a close match for a Vitale type 3, I was able to squish my femininity inclinations and desire to be a girl into a deep dark closet. So why I was able to do that and some ts kids cannot and do not, I have no idea. Is their gender variance stronger? Is there some other psychological difference that caused our paths to be different? Why am I indifferent about genitalia but wish to live full time as a woman? I keep falling back to it’s a big beautiful spectrum, and united we stand, divided we fall.

    I also believe there’s a few TS’ that believe if they disavow the idea of a spectrum, and denigrate TG identified people and CD’s as sharing a big spectrum,” it makes them more normal to the mainstream, eg “I may be a weirdo, but I’m not as weird as them”. I am not saying anyone here believes that.

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    Soren Kierkegaard said that "once you label me, you negate me". We are not transkids and in the worlds eye, we are a lesser type of person. The labels they attach are everything from conciliatory to hateful, but they're ever present. These labels are the curse that makes us feel like nothing and I have yet to figure out how to personally resolve it. I wish I had answers, but I do have to say I'm pretty tired of the labels being attached to me in others efforts to justify
    and pigeonhole my existence.

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    I like the androgynous mindset, which isn't going to leave me. That wasn't enough though.

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    Gold Member Read only Rachael Leigh's Avatar
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    Kimberly for one who was on the path to transitioning but is now more non binary I agree that for me a full transition was
    Just not going to work for me. I’m most defiantly more feminine than masculine but being able to present male at times
    it just fit for me

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    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TG-Taru View Post
    My current thinking about myself is I'm NB-TG; not comfortable as a man, not claiming to be simply woman, though I'd prefer to be.
    Taru, I also like part of the quote that Daisy referenced. If I read your words as typed I read that you do not claim to be a woman though you would prefer to be a woman or or would prefer to claim yourself to be one. Can you help me better understand that, because you seem content, for the time being?, to be where you are, wherever that is? If real world considerations were different (I do not know your history) like family and SO acceptance and support, different general public view and opinions for the batter than it is now, secure and happy employment where the company would support your needs, etc, do you think you would begin to see or let yourself see yourself as more firmly as a woman? For now, I generally lean toward NB as being a great holding/growing/deciding place for many, not all, who may have too many external conflicts that make a hard decision so hard. I personally am not the one, nor is anyone else, to state what you are and what you should do. However, state a problem/issue and then based on my personal knowledge and experience I may have a lot to offer. I am just trying to understand because for me being pn this site for over 11 years, NB is a relatively new concept in this site, and in talking with my many TS, including a few NB friends, it is for some of them too. The NB seems to fit for them (for now or forever). Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikki_P View Post
    Labels schmabels.



    I also believe there’s a few TS’ that believe if they disavow the idea of a spectrum, and denigrate TG identified people and CD’s as sharing a big spectrum,” it makes them more normal to the mainstream, eg “I may be a weirdo, but I’m not as weird as them”. I am not saying anyone here believes that.
    Nikki I agree with this very much. Some friends of mine, (some that used to be on this site ) were very adamant that anyone NB was somehow not measuring up or being truthful or honest with themselves. I disagree. However I also agree with Miyra to the extent that many people that identify as CD or NB which is now becoming more common are on the path to realizing / acknowledging that they are TS. I always knew I was primarily TS but not a girly girl so to speak.

    The one thing I believe is that we should not judge anyone on the spectrum. Either how they identify as NB or CD or Androgynous or gender queer etc - it may be their truth or it may be where they are on their journey to discovering that they are in fact TS. Whatever .... doesn't matter. What matters is if those of us with more experience can add any insights / support that can help them find their own peace. I have definitely received that from several sources including here.

    Now I just have to figure out the rest of my life. LOL. well sort of kidding. :-)
    Last edited by KymberlyOct; 10-28-2018 at 02:26 AM. Reason: typo

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    I agree with Miyra as well. I’ve observed for some, myself included, NB is or was a comfortable (or less scary)staging location while trying to figure out oneself. And like you, I’m not super girly, and I wonder if that’s a function of 40+ years or denial, suppression and trying to play the role of a dude, or if it’s inherent personality. Plus some transphobia thrown in for good measure. I do find myself sliding more towards the feminine in voice and gestures as I allow the facade to come down.

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    I mean, since I don't think I'm simply, or all-ish woman (but still some), I can't say or claim it as simply as a clear-cut TS could. That "simply" there is important.

    I didn't really have a feeling of being a particular gender growing up, just went with the flow, not questioning at the time, while enjoying straying on the girly side a few times; no resistance there. Still, no revelation back then that "this is it, it was all wrong before". There was never that strong of a rejection of being male in favor of "simply" being a woman or girl. Somewhat of a woman, not simply just, or nearly just woman. I have no interest or attachement to being a man, while the times I feel female are good, so that' would be the preference - just not where I'm at all the time. If it's not emphasized or brought up though, as said earlier, it's not constantly on my mind. I dislike being a man, but don't fully deny or absolutely hate it either. I've no obsession to eradicate that, but it is a bit of an eysore, annoyance and inconvenience for the woman side, and a general downer when it catches attention.

    Content-ish, not happy. Society and family; I woudn't expect very big troubles, I'm just stuck between any possible inconveniences and my needs not being that pressing or constant. Tend to like the boat not to rock, though being too still, not really getting anywhere, story of my life, or lack thereof. Dunno if my self assesment would really change, but if I expected a positive response, certainly being more open and free would be nicer, and I'd pursue and show the woman side more.

    Yea, I think NB is pretty new for most, as a definition if not as a concept.

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    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    Thank you Taru. I think I get your situation better now.

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    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Given how many times people here change their mind
    Given how many times people here have changed their own label/ identity
    given how many times we've disagreed whether labels matter
    given how many additional labels have come into play in last 10 years..


    .............................
    I am real

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    Given how many times people here change their mind
    Given how many times people here have changed their own label/ identity
    given how many times we've disagreed whether labels matter
    given how many additional labels have come into play in last 10 years..


    .............................

    LOL Amen.

    Well there is something to be said about evolving, but eh yeah you make a good and funny point.

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    Senior Member Maid_Marion's Avatar
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    I've never really fit into one of the binary genders. AMAB but I have an unusually girly figure. 32-26-32, 108 pounds. No Adam's apple. I know how to use all sorts of machine and power tools. Excellent math. science and engineering skills. Just started learning to sew after getting pretty good at cooking. I do great at hobby competitions. My late wife said I was the most alpha male she ever met. But she also teased out my girly side. Not only did I buy the pink fleece jacket she picked out for me, but I must have worn it in public over 200 times!

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