Disturbing Observation

[Paula DAngelo]

Kelly,


Here are some examples all taken from recent thread(s):


I don't think of trans women as being women either, and unless they can do something to morph chromosomes, they never will be.
Obviously this person does not think that I or any other trans-woman know what we are, and they are more qualified to decide what we are.




I think it depends on whether or not the person has transitioned or not and to what extent. I think if you’ve had SRS and now have a vagina, you can definitely say you’re a lesbian.
So know unless we are able to transition to the extent that they think is required we are not women




as long as we have our parts, we are still heterosexual
I guess this means that people that are bisexual or pan-sexual don't exist according to this logic. This is wrong on so many levels.




All of these statements are insulting and demeaning to the people that fit in the groups being talked about. These are the type of comments that we have to fight against on a daily basis as they are the same type of comments that are being used to try and make it illegal for us to exist. Why are we giving the "enemy" ammunition to use against us, if "we" feel this way why should the rest of the world see us any differently?

[Lana Mae]

Paula, I would say that these folks are not aware that many "trans-women" can not afford healthcare let alone HT and SRS! They are women but still have their male parts because they can not afford to get female parts! Does this make them any less women? No because it is how you feel that makes you a woman! The sum of our lives is not our genitals! I fully support ALL of our trans ladies regardless of where you are at physically! Hugs Lana Mae

[Kelly DeWinter]

Paula;

I recall the thread and I agree with how you feel. The reality is that for some here the journey they are on is to transition at some point. They don't realize it until some time later when they cross the line between being a cross-dresser to being transgender. Some people don't understand the difference between sex and gender and are like birthers (political reference) they hold to the notion that gender is in chromosomes.

There is a current theme floating on this site about MAID which is the new definition for being a Transvestite ( don't hammer me people, it's my opinion) For some being a MAID is their simple understanding of Cross-dressing without the complications of admitting to being a Cross-dresser.

The one thing this site does not have is a beginner guide to CD/TG that lays out what is and what is not in terminology.

The best way to remove any '"enemy"ammunition' is to educate the members in a persuasive manner. It just takes time.

One of the great aspects of this site is that it gives people time to learn by asking questions.

[Ashley in Virginia]

Its not all about money for transitioning. I am a transwoman, I still have male parts. I don't ever see myself getting rid of them for my own personal reasons. It does not make me any less of a woman than other transwomen who have had surgery.

Transphobia is rampant on this forum. Everytime I read someone saying about "choosing to be a woman" is a slap in the face. I am a woman. For years I chose to be a man. I couldn't do it anymore and I decided to be real about who I am. Being my real self is me being a woman.

[Alice Torn]

i am part man, part woman, and go back and forth, but it is very tough for most of us with these emotions, and compulsions in a difficult world. I think partly like a woman, and partly like a man, but feel i am more of a lady in a big male body, that has leggs also like a lady. Live and let live. Bit, it is ok to disagree agreeably, and not be cruel.

[Aunt Kelly]

Paula,
First of all, bless you and every other FtM TS who participates here on crossdressers.com. Their/your presence here routinely provides knowledge and perspective which can be provided by no other group. Speaking as someone who has only recently come to terms with being TS, I can tell you that it has been valuable.
Yes, there is more ignorance and insensitivity than it seems there should be in a community like this, but were it not for the patience of those transwomen who continue to contribute it would be a darker place. And yes, I get why so many who are now transitioned just want to get on with life and don't really need what support might be available here. Maybe that will happen to me, but I hope not. I come from a place where service to one's community is a high calling and consider it a privilege to walk in the footsteps of those who came before, bringing more light to places that need it.

Hugs,


Kelly

[Kelly DeWinter]

Ashley "Trans-phobia is rampant on this forum." ?!? Please ! This forum is the most inclusive and non Trans-phobic you will find on the internet. Are Transgender issues and ideas discussed ? Yes, Do people have varying ideas ? yes . Do some people at some times use terms in a way that others don't agree with ? yes

Any one who is down right disrespectful or hostile usually does not last long on the forum and we can that the moderators for the great job they do.

I applaud the brave men and woman who identify with their gender and live their lives as fully as they can in the best manner they can.

In most cases people who use the phrase "choosing to be a woman" means that they have chosen to live their gender identity. Don't you think it's more appropriate to encourage them in their choice and not take it as an insult ?

[Kas]

It is a crossdressing site foremost, so you have to expect this kind of thing as the majority here are just guys who like to wear women’s clothing. I’m sure there are better forums for TS discussions than this place.

The TS section is basically dead on this site unfortunately.

[rachelatshop]

Hi Paula, I'm sorry that you have seen that kind of post, because that is not what I thought this site was about. Most all trans-women were and many still are sometimes cross dressers that is how we all started and it is some of the trans-women who can answer some of the questions that some young cross dressers have when they want to know where they might be headed. May the force be always with you

[marlacd]

The mods on here do a good job of keeping this site a pleasant place for us to come to.

Still, the haters could invade, and cause disruption in here. Trolls are everywhere. Why they want to be destructive, belittling us for what we choose to do, is quite the puzzle. From those who wish to control us, to those who wish to bring down our devices, it's some sort of power trip for them. For all we know, it could be someone's irate spouse, or an ex that wants to create problems.

My experiences with other forums has gotten me to ignore random negative posts. I remember them, and just skip reading their posted drivel. Acknowledging them, only encourages them to continue their nonsense. The best mod, is you. Don't let them get to you. They aren't living your life. Don't let them in your mind. Dwell on positive things.

Ignore them, and they will go away.

[Bobbi46]

Paula, the degree of insult here is so little as to not be worth bothering about and in any case if one is being insulted then the mods are here to help out, as for transphobia here I have yet to see/find it, sure there are differences of opinion but that is what this site is here fro opinions and advice.

[Paula DAngelo]

Bobbi,

If you are mean the number of insults occurring on the forum in general being minor i would tend to agree with you, although it does seem to be increasing (just my opinion). Now if you are saying that the original post or the examples that i posted are minor i have to disagree. Here's what i see just from the 3 examples that i gave.

A member thinks I and others like me are to stupid to know who we are, and how we should be identified, but they can say who we are.. Another member feels that unless we have the medical procedures that they think are required we aren't who we know we are. Finally we have a member that says since i still have male parts and i have a relationship with a woman i am heterosexual. Not that it's any ones business, but guess what, I pan-sexual , so once again someone thinks they know me more than i do.

You say you have seen no examples of transphobia, well I've just shown you some.

Maybe you consider all these minor things and should just be ignored, but to me and I'm guessing others like me these are major as they strike right at my core identity and my right to exist. This is why i started this thread to begin with, to make people think about the impact of their words.

[Vicky_Scot]

I'm speaking of those of us that are trans-women. I understand that this is mainly a site for cross dressers, however I thought that one of the core beliefs was that trans-women are women, at least that is what is often stated. Lately I have been seeing a lot of replies that imply or out right state that a trans-woman is not a woman.

Sorry Paula but reading your statement you call yourself a Trans-Woman so you can't complain as you do not even recognise yourself as a woman. You should be calling yourself a woman, plain and simple.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Bobbi

Yes words have meaning, but context also does. If you re-read the post , the thread was about what makes a lesbian, not what makes a woman.

I agree that people need to know that their words have an impact, but it cuts both ways.

This morning I was read an article about a male high school lifeguard who 5 girls started a rumor that he had raped two girls, the rumors circulated at school, guidance counselor overheard, reported to principal, who called the local Crisis line, who called the police. The boy was prosecuted for a crime he did not commit. The girls admitted to making things up.

Even in this post words like trans-phobia and haters are tossed about casually.

Consider what transphobia is:

Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectation.

[Paula DAngelo]

Sorry Paula but reading your statement you call yourself a Trans-Woman so you can't complain as you do not even recognise yourself as a woman. You should be calling yourself a woman, plain and simple.

Vicky,

Just because I state that I am a trans-woman does not negate the fact that I am a woman. Using your logic if someone identified as an African American Woman or any other sub group of womanhood then they to would not be a woman. Just because someone states that they are part of a sub group in a larger group does not exclude them from the larger group.

[Queen Bridget]

If you identify as a woman, then you aren't crossdressing. You are wearing the clothes of your gender.

I don't like to be mean, but this specific forum says that it's for Crossdressers (Men who wear the clothing of the opposite gender). There is a seperate forum for TG/TS people.

[GretchenM]

Ever since that "transbian" discussion, I have thought about this and have gone both ways. But after thinking in terms of concepts we have regarding sex and gender, I have come to the conclusion that a trans-woman can be a lesbian and be involved in a lesbian relationship, irrespective to the sexual identity or anatomy.

To me, a lot of this confusion originates in the way many relate gender identity and sexual identity and the use of gender terms in a sexual context and sexual terms in a gender context. To me sexual identity is male and female and that is determined genetically. And that is the end of that. Gender though is a different thing with very little connection to sexual identity genetics, that is, whether you have two X chromosomes or an X and a Y, plus the variations on this that produce an intersex condition with regard to morphology, anatomy, and physiology.

Gender is the role you "play" in the context of the social structure. The terms men and women and masculine and feminine are gender based terms. So, if you are a man and you identify with the more traditional role that women serve then you are, in terms of gender, a woman even though you are not female. But when we are not careful to keep the concept of these terms in their proper context we end up with cross meanings. Because most females are women (but not all) then we equate female and woman. Same thing if you start with males. That is, not all males are men. In fact they are far more women.

HRT and SRS completes the anatomical part, but the chromosomes are still the same. Does it matter? No, because the identity, the person we deal with is usually the gender person and not the chromosomal person. Thus, trans-women, in the gender context, are women. Can a trans women be a lesbian?

Here we have a blending of sexual identity and gender identity and that makes it difficult. Asking one question, at least for me, clarifies it. When you have sexual relations are you making love to the chromosomal identity, that is the sexual identity, or the person with the gender identity? For nearly all, it is the person and not their chromosomes that is the attraction. Therefore a woman who is genetically female and a woman who is genetically male can have a lesbian relationship because genetics really is not a factor; and attraction to each others gender identity is the driver. Therefore, using this reasoning, the answer is yes as to whether a trans-woman can be lesbian.

Sorry for all the more or less clinical talk about these technical aspects, but I think when we break down these things into smaller units, as Stephanie47 and others have suggested, the answer becomes much clearer.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Queen;

Iv'e looked it over carefully, nowhere does it say that. And it was mean. Whats next suggesting separate water fountains ?

The exchange of ideas is important to understanding.

[Vicky_Scot]

Vicky, Just because I state that I am a trans-woman does not negate the fact that I am a woman.

Sorry but of course it does.

[Queen Bridget]

Iv'e looked it over carefully, nowhere does it say that. And it was mean. Whats next suggesting separate water fountains ?

The exchange of ideas is important to understanding.

Well, "Male" typically referring to "Men".

I know it's just a technicality, but I'm someone who came here to escape abuse from the Trans community. Thinking this was a place for CD's to be free from the constant "Gender identity" lectures we endure on most other sites.

I know an exchange of ideas is important. But sometimes it's nice for groups to have their own space.

[Paula DAngelo]

Sorry but of course it does.

Vicki,

Maybe you should read the whole post that you decided to cherry pick one line from. If you had bothered to read or attempt to understand you would not have made your comment, unless you believe that trans-women aren't women.

I'll rephrase it for you so maybe this time you will be able to understand. Identifying as part of a sub group, in this case trans-women, does not exclude you from the larger group, women. The only way being a trans-woman would exclude you from being a woman is if you are saying that trans-women are not women.

So tell me, are trans-women women, or aren't they?

[Kas]

I know it's just a technicality, but I'm someone who came here to escape abuse from the Trans community. Thinking this was a place for CD's to be free from the constant "Gender identity" lectures we endure on most other sites.

If this is what you were looking for then you came to the wrong site unfortunately. You would assume TS would post, you know, on the TS thread or one of the many other TS websites, but no. They come here on the CROSSDRESSING thread and then get offended because not everybody accepts their beliefs and get all the threads that are actually interesting shut down. Also doesnt help that the mods ALWAYS side up with the TS in any argument.

I goto admit though, If you like hearing people talk about what colour their nails were for their annual trip to the day spa then this is the place to be.

[Amelie]

I have been on and off this forum since 2004 and it does sometimes seem to have this feeling of people not understanding being a woman, a trans woman is like. And sometimes this mis understanding comes out in posts that can be hurtful. I am not going to search my old posts, that is if they are still there, but I have said many times that I am a woman and I haven't got the understanding. I think one of my complaints is why am I not allowed to belong to the womens section of the forum if I am a woman. I don't really care to belong to the womens section but is was just a point I was trying to make at the time and how being a woman it felt like others didn't see me the same way as a woman.

And if one is a trans woman, a woman, a cd, an SO, then it doesn't matter what part of the forum they should be able to post in. Information and support can be given by anyone in any forum no matter what the person identifies with. I think this forum and trans people in general make the mistake of putting everyone in their special sections instead of just coming together as a whole. We might have our differences but also we are the same.

I also take it that geography plays a part. My mindset of living in the East Village of NYC is quite different from someone from Kansas. This forum has people from all parts and with that comes all different ways of thinking. When I first came online I was amazed how different people's thinking was to mine and how i lived my life. I use to be here at lot in the first years but as time went on I grew to dislike most cds and trans people. Even on FB trans groups I can take only so much of the infighting between people who should be friends that I'd rather live alone away from all of them.

I said this many years ago on this forum. I live my life as a woman every where I go but when I come to this forum I am made to feel like a man. That's OK, I understand this forum.

[GaleWarning]

I joined this forum because I wanted to understand myself. I could not have reached the level of understanding I have achieved without being exposed to the viewpoints of everyone who has ever been a member of this forum.

I don't care for labels, and have expressed my hatred of these vehemently and often on this site.

I do love it that there is such a wide variety of expression of a commonality … a love of women's clothing. This is the essence of 'crossdressing', no matter how each of us views 'the woman within'.


Enough bitching now!

[RachelPortugal]

If you identify as a woman, then you aren't crossdressing. You are wearing the clothes of your gender.

I don't like to be mean, but this specific forum says that it's for Crossdressers (Men who wear the clothing of the opposite gender). There is a seperate forum for TG/TS people.

NO!

It actually states "This section is for those interested in discussing all areas of male to female crossdressing." So it is not for the exclusive use of men who wear clothing of the opposite sex. Maybe Paula has started a thread that is not discussing an area of male to female crossdressing, but she is quite rightly addressing other threads in this section which were themselves not specifically discussing an area of male to female crossdressing.

Anybody can post here! Sometimes the mods will move a thread to another section, but sometime the edges are blurred as to what should fall into a particular section.

I am a genetic male crossdresser, but when I am fully dressed I take it as a compliment to be called a woman, because that is the way I am presenting and choose to be presenting at that time. Surely, any transgendered person, at whatever end of the spectrum, should be treated respectfully and addressed as they themselves choose to present.