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Thread: Losing Male Privilege

  1. #26
    Just do it already! DaisyLawrence's Avatar
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    Ilene. There has been much talk of dressing for success and still being physically capable of defending yourself whatever the clothing choice but I think those replies are missing the point. Correct me if I am wrong but is it simply the case that had you encountered the same men at the same time when en homme you would not have perceieved there to be any risk regardless of whether you were dressed smart or casual or whether you were 5' 5" or 6' 3" tall, but, dressed as you were you automatically percieved there to be a threat (be it from misogynistic or transphobic attitudes) regardless of whether there was one? Furthermore it is this perceived threat that some women can encounter almost daily whereas men encounter it very rarely. As a male I have found myself in that situation only about twice in 54 years but as a female there are many places I would not go for fear of putting myself at risk due to not being male. That is a privilege that most men take for granted simply because they have not experienced life as a female first hand. Many here on this forum are, of course, more knowledgeable on such matters.

  2. #27
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    I don't think their feeling of vulnerability is remotely as strong as we experience nor does it exist in all women. Women do after all get more experience with their gender in social situations and lots of them could still be naive to how "dangerous" the world is so they have no anxiety. It depends on where they live too.

  3. #28
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    Tracii G, Is your post just more of the male bashing your post refers to? JK

    I think it is more, the grass always looks greener from across the street. There are obstacles that women encounter more often than men and there are obstacles men encounter more often than women.

    Ilene, Not being a fighter, I can relate to how you had a different initial thought/reaction to the possible threat and added feeling of vulnerability. My guess is that had this encounter turned bad, your training would have made the outcome be greatly in your favor! Glad you didn't need to find out if I would have been right.

    Your suit wearing experience I think shows how ones outward appearance has a strong influence as to how others interact with us. If that appearance triggers feelings of respect good will some that persons way. If it triggers feeling of disrespect (military uniforms during after Vietnam) the opposite will likely occur.

    Society is always changing in these regards.

    Great post!

  4. #29
    Yeah Ok like whatever Tracii G's Avatar
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    No Sara I was defending men not bashing them like so many do these days.
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  5. #30
    happy to be her Sarah Charles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    . . . .

    So it's not just the suit ... or the gender. Factors that influence how well people are treated are height, scale of attractiveness (there are studies), and signs of wealth and education. . . .
    My late wife was short, overweight and Hispanic. There were so many times where she would stand at a counter waiting for a clerk to choose the next person to assist and be ignored in favor of others arriving later but looking different. A couple of times I, a 6'1" white guy, walked up behind her at the counter and got immediate attention. I thought if I'd been wearing a suit they might have left the counter to come out on the sales floor to help me before assisting her.

    I don't know the reasons and won't guess what was in the other person's mind. But it was a real and repeated scene.
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  6. #31
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    I haven't heard anyone say it but women are also smart, capable, strong, and confident.

  7. #32
    Yeah Ok like whatever Tracii G's Avatar
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    That they are Kimberly some even box and are bad asses.
    The whole notion that women are the weaker sex, looked down on or paid less than men, considered second class citizens seems to be coming from people that are using women for their political gain.
    Women can fly jets, fight in combat, be high ranking military officers and no one is stopping them.
    I have seen women driving big trucks and doing other jobs that are always considered male jobs no one stopped them.
    So who is it that is holding women back?
    What group is it that sets up these womens marches? makes the signs and the slogans to chant and tells them they can't do whatever it is they want to do?
    So who is holding women back and profiting off them? Give it some thought.


    PS Just something to think about using good old common sense and looking deeper than the surface.
    If you get triggered well I'm sorry so don't start calling me names for voicing my opinion. As always I'm not going to argue with you and call you names because we may not agree because you have every right to have your own opinion but you need to realize everyone doesn't have to agree with you.
    Last edited by Tracii G; 10-24-2018 at 06:14 PM.
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  8. #33
    Member Rachelish's Avatar
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    Ilene

    Your encounters provide an interesting and personal illustration of the real position of men in society, and how this does affect women on a day to day basis.

    As a genetic male I have surely benefitted from male privilege, not by going out to take advantage of women but because the system has always been stacked against women, and still is. Women have had to fight for the right to vote, the right to enter government, the right to equal pay and so much more, and I have great respect for those that continue to make themselves heard, whether it's on a womens' march campaigning for equal respect and opportities, or having the courage to speak out about routine sexual abuse, which is overwhelmingly committed by men.

    A recent thread explored the idea that dressing as women gave us greater insights into the position of women in society, and I'd like to think it does, but it's certainly not necessary in order to look carefully and see the many ways they are continually disadvantaged.

    Pointing this out is not attacking men and I don't believe men face discrimination. As I heard recently: "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression ".

    Rachel

  9. #34
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    Good points well made Rachel. This thread should also be read in conjunction with Jess' thread (https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...-by-creepy-men). What we have here are two examples where people felt threatened by men, and yes, this is something that GG have to face every time that they go out. Male privilege does exist in our patriarchal society even though some wilfully refuse to see what is right in front of their closed eyes. Actually, such behaviour, we've all seen it, you know, stamping of feet, eyes shut, fingers in the ears, screaming at the top of the voice, refusing to eat one's greens, well, that kind of behaviour should stay in the kindergarten.

  10. #35
    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    from age 10 to age 18 i lived in an area where i was by far the smartest kid, in all the school years, and i would be ganged-up on by tens of kids at a time. i learned to be hyper-aware, to run fast, to take safer routes, to avoid dangerous places, to be super-checking dangerous males.

    Now being 100% as a woman, going out, but in a safer town/local world, having lost considerable muscle mass the last 9 months since I stopped generating testosterone, I am vulnerable again, but I don't feel as vulnerable as I did back in school.

    The biggest, toughest guy at college was beaten to a pulp by a gang of smaller guys, so were many students beaten up by local gangs. This was in my life until my early 20's. I have to say, in these towns back then, the violence was male on male.

    Where I then worked for 20 years, was an industry with too few women, but they were prized, treated equally financially - and I know this because I once took over the entire pay review and conducted a thorough assessment of pay versus capability, and we had female senior managers promoted on competence. I appreciate this is a rare counter-example., but remember there is also a "women's club".

    I find people are friendlier to me now, than when I was presenting as a male. I'm also being included in the biggest, life and world-changing project I've yet experienced in my life, working with top people, worldwide. Perhaps because of my intellect, emapthy and beingness, I am being treated as an equal by males and females in this project, and there are actually, more women involved than men so far.
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  11. #36
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IleneD View Post
    My mind is changing. The more I pursue this transgender life of mine, the more counseling and learning I acquire, the more my mind's pathways change. I think things, believe things now I never would have imagined flowing through my brain as I've embraced a more feminized life. Emotions. Attitudes. All changing for the better.
    That's wonderful! It's a pity that the mothers of our generation were not able to teach their boys to welcome sensitivity and emotion, and their girls gain the grit to be self-sufficient, as I and mothers of my generation did with our children. I think it's wonderful to see the younger generation ridding themselves of all the old barriers between the genders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Charles View Post
    A couple of times I, a 6'1" white guy, walked up behind her at the counter and got immediate attention.
    There's no doubt that tall, attractive, confidant, (and sadly in our culture right now also if they have the "right" ethnicity), get more attention than those who don't have those assets. My point was that it has less to do with gender and more to do with other factors. One doesn't have to be a man in order to command attention. Not any more.
    Reine

  12. #37
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    You were probably treated well on the plane not because you were male, but because of the way you were dressed and they assumed you were a business traveler. Airlines will treat them well because they are good customers versus someone who is dressed for vacation and might fly once a year..

    As for the two guys looking shady, it is good to think twice before engaging regardless of gender. If it isn't an emergency, call the cops. Even if one is a martial arts expert, there are two of them, and how do you know they are not armed?

  13. #38
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    An interesting thread but I do wonder about the widespread use of male privilege as if this explains everything.
    I travel a lot internationally and my observations for what they are worth are that "privilege", if that is the right word, is given for many different reasons. Well-dressed and well-groomed people of both sexes seem to be treated well but attitude and behavior also matters.

    I well remember the day I was at the ticket counter for a much delayed and overcrowded flight. People in suits and people in jeans as well as those in skirts were all tending to behave badly and demand and bluster and threaten. The poor berated airline employee was doing her best but was being beaten down by all of the nasty ill tempered behavior. When it was my turn I told her that I was really sorry seeing her having to take such abuse for something that was not her fault. Before I went to college I worked as a bus conductor and saw how awful and nasty some members of the public can be. I knew very well what she was going through and how she was feeling.

    When I received my new ticket it was for a first class seat.

    I am still uncertain of what happened to Ilene. I have been in similar situations when in male mode and have felt just as concerned and "threatened" as Ilene did in her encounter. As an older person I perceive I am more vulnerable also.

    Certainly many people are treated differently in public encounters but it is not simple down to male versus female. I have seen some males cower in front of strong confident females and also seen many males treated disdainfully by both sexes.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimberlyJean View Post
    I haven't heard anyone say it but women are also smart, capable, strong, and confident.
    Amen, Kimberly. The women in my family are all well educated or currently enrolled in college. All hold well paying jobs. All are married to well educated men. When it comes to whether the suit is being honored rather than the person wearing it, whether a man's suit or a woman's suit, the suit may get you in the door. Once you open your mouth the truth will flow forth. If you're an idiot the suit will not help, whether a female or a male. The only men and women I've known who can get away appearing sloppy are those who own the company.

    I worked in a professional office. I worked across the table from business men and women, attorneys, certified public accountants. I dressed professionally as a matter of respect for those people. I also deemed it respect for myself. There were managers in the office who wore what can be best described as beach attire or gym attire. Totally disrespectful to those we served, which in turn did not earn respect for themselves. Yes, sometimes I was mistaken for the office manager. That should have been a clue for those dressed unprofessionally. Now on the weekends, when appropriate, I can really look like a slob.

    I like to relate stories. Early in my career I had a multi millionaire home builder as a client across the table. In from the field in work clothes and boots, dirt under the nails, and, accompanied by his certified public accountant. He was professionally addressed. I easily recognized his work ethic. His status. On the other hand it related his story when he stopped at his bank and was totally ignored. He was properly thought to be a downtown homeless person. Well, when he finally had to say who he was everyone at the bank dropped everything and fawned over him. He could not stand they way they were to a person deemed unworthy of a kind inquiry. He immediately closed out all his seven figure bank accounts. Just don't let the clothes go to your head.

    A comment was made by Sarah (#30) that others were ignored in favor of others coming after. That also happened frequently when out and about. I nipped that in the bud with carefully pointing out that the child or other person was waiting before me.



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