Charlotte,Originally Posted by Charlotte7
I totally get what you are saying, Group 1 is the hardest to describe in finite terms, because it constitute the majority of permutations of all the different types of personalities it encompasses. So it maybe better to say that acceptance is preferred, but can live without it. But the ability to live an authentic life is paramount.
Sometimes I wear a pair of womens tights under my jeans when I go out so I'm a [insert label here].
Sometimes I spend time in the house wearing a skirt or a dress so I'm a [insert label here].
Sometimes I dress up in a wig, makeup, forms and pads, leggings, skirt or dress and go out shopping so I'm a [insert label here].
You can substitute the label for any of: crossdresser, MIAD, or 'transgender person' and they would all be correct.
It matters little to me. It probably matters even less to anyone else.
Gretchen,
I think your four categories cover the complete spectrum and there is no need to sub-divide further. Of course there are varieties within each group but basically they adhere to your list. Look at the variety of dogs, yet all are basically the same.
GeorgeA
formerly Salerba
"a miad" Man-in-a-Dress
GAOOSH
Go All Out Or Stay Home is a thought process of many here. An opinion often expressed perhaps not too subtley. One that probably keeps some members home/in their closets. (An action [INaction] that helps no one).
I think the very name of this site should be a good enough clue to people.
While I'm just starting, Id never go out in public. I don't have the body or the face for it. I don't know about later. If I shave and learn to put on makeup that might change. For now it's just in the bedroom. I like the term MIAD being brand new to this I never heard it before.
Yay for Gretchen's lexicon! Seems simple and comprehensive enough, and we could adhere to it, with an FAQ for new posters, and friendly reminders when people lose track of the differences. Using this kind of terminology would help people know where we are coming from, so repliers know what to say. Of course, simply understanding that we are here to support each other as crossdressers, regardless of our individual reasons, is the easiest way forward. If we don't understand why someone is doing something, we can ask, and at no point question their motives or sanity!
But if we are going to use labels to provide context- as I did when making the MIAD sharing thread- so that someone expecting to see an emulation dresser is not disappointed, we could add helpful specificity:
1. Say Female-identified crossdressers, rather than transgender, since the latter term is also an umbrella term in the larger society, and still evolving [see https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx ] Transsexual is too limiting, in terms of incorporating physical transition.
2. Perhaps use the term Emulation crossdressers, for those of us who are trying to look like females, but not identifying as female.
3. Drag queen crossdressers are well understood as performance artists.
4. MIAD might better be said as NB crossdresser. This is for all those who are not trying to avoid being seen as at least partially a male/man/masculine - and the way we crossdress speaks about how we are incorporating the female/woman/feminine into our presentation and by reference, our identity! Using NB also avoids the term being used in a way that sounds like it is undermining someone's success in leaving the male look behind.
I think we started using MIAD simply to helpfully provide context to our goals when we post. That was because foiks sometimes were critical, not realizing we could have such divergent goals [in terms of appearance] while sharing a love for crossdressing. We never really tried to give everyone a simple and uncontested label that works for a post- and has been pointed out, individuals are not limited to one category- we switch back and forth.
Last edited by phili; 12-15-2018 at 11:55 PM.
We are all beautiful...!
Is MIAD simply just the truth?
I agree with Phili. I think Non-Binary (NB) should be used in place of MIAD. If you were to visit any other website, forum, etc. you would be considered NB. MIAD is a term which was created and used on this website only and i can see how new members could take offence to this because of the use of the letter "M".
I think the term non-binary is not used enough on this site when it really should be. MIAD is basically the definition of NB.
Last edited by Kas; 12-16-2018 at 12:32 AM.
It's always been my contention that humanity rests on this dichotomy: the desire to belong to a group, and the necessity of division in order to define a group.
Once we subdivide 'human' we invite conflict. But that desire for belonging clearly derives from the procreative drive that in turn drives the acquisitive drive to secure resources, even at the cost of others' survival - conflict.
And yet even at a time in history when we should be able to transcend such simple motivations what do we do? Break down into infinitesimal sub-divisions. It seems to be near axiomatic that the finer the sub-division the greater the resistance to its existence.
And yet if we were to truly sub-divide and sub-divide to its logical conclusion (or reductio ad absurdum, whichever you prefer) we'd find ourselves back where we began. That any division of 'human' results in any 1 of 7 billion absolutely unique beings. 'Human' is the ONLY thing, the only label that unites us all, describes us all.
Labels should only be applied where they *usefully* act as a shorthand for understanding a characteristic, but never as a substitute for respect. No-one, but no-one on this planet is reducible to one or even a handy few labels. We're all crazily complex venn diagrams of overlapping characteristics. That needs celebrating.
That all said, what Gretchen said, as refined by Phili. I did say labels could be *useful*.
IMHO.
Kas I think you don't understand the full range of Non Binary... it means not involving just two things... I consider myself to be non- binary because I think I am a blend of both genders and my 'Transness' can vary quite a lot. I am most definitely not a MIAD however.
A.K.A Rebecca & Bec
Wrong on both counts. There is a sub-forum here that has many regulars.
MIAD is the definition of a crossdresser, someone who wears women's clothing and (for most) it has very little to do with gender.
Although I do agree that there are a large number of peeps here who don't want to admit or are afraid of accepting the fact that they are more than a 'mere crossdresser', and are actually on the transgender spectrum, which could also mean they might be NB.
I get the impression you are one of those people who confuses gender with biological sex. I was born biologically male but my sense of gender never aligned fully with being male.
I realize now, all these years later, that I was gifted a feminine gender to go with the one I grew up with. Non-binary means I am transgender, and the gender is mostly found between my ears, in my heart and in my soul. Binary means either one or the other, hence the term non-binary.
Speak of anything gender with most MIAD's here and what you get back is something along the lines of...…...'I just like to wear women's clothing, i'm all male, it just feels good, it's a hobby, i'm my masculine (masculinity and femininity are gender constructs, not something one wears for awhile) self, i'm just a crossdresser' etc, etc.
Your entitled to your opinion of course, but don't try to define me or anyone else here who truly understands the terminology, without knowing more than you do now, it's both rude and foolish.
I LIVE a non-binary life, both internally and externally each and every day.
Cass
Last edited by Cassandra Lynn; 12-16-2018 at 05:37 PM.
I meant in the sense that all (intentional) MIAD are NB, but not all NB are MIADs.
I know NB refers to many other groups, but in my view intentional MIADs are the epitome of NB.
Last edited by Kas; 12-16-2018 at 08:02 PM.
A man in a dress, is a man in a dress, and his reason for being in a dress, has little to do with anything NB people think, feel or look like externally.
Every NB person I've met here speak of their gender, yet every MIAD here only talks about wearing an item of clothing.
Many of the guys here who are MIADs, do nothing at all besides the dress, other than maybe a pair of heels. When someone wear clothing normally associated with the opposite sex, I believe that is known as crossdressing?
Absent of the obvious biological and other body shape, bone structure, skin, hair, and body shape differences, my presentation is that of any female I see out and about everyday. The reason I do this is because it suits me in and feels natural to my sense of gender.
Would you like to further explain what your thinking is?
Cass
NB means somebody who does not conform to one of the 2 (binary) gender stereotypes. One being a man who acts/looks like a man, the other being a woman who acts/looks like a woman (TS women included).
Therefore a man with a beard and wearing a dress is considered as non-binary due to the fact they do not fall under one of the binary stereotypes.
I would even argue that anybody who does not present 100% as female (under-dressers, people who do not wear a wig for example) would fall under the NB category which would mean the majority of this forum. I will even admit that I would be considered NB due to the fact that I do not always present as 100% female most of the time.
People can choose to associate with any group they please, but technically speaking, if you do not fit under one of the binary stereotypes then you are considered non-binary.
What do you consider NB to mean?
Last edited by Kas; 12-16-2018 at 11:49 PM.
Kas a Non Binary person can be a man in a dress, but a man in a dress is not Non Binary because they put on dresses. In fact you have hit right into the whole point of my OP and why I suggested The term is too embracing. A male who sees himself completely as a male but wants to partially dress in womans clothes is NOT in any way non binary, they are very much males.
A.K.A Rebecca & Bec
Hmmm, this is getting interesting now. I can't wait till Daisy reads this, it's gonna give her something to think about as to her 'Bridge' theory.
Just so you know I agree with some of what you say, and it serves to prove the fact that crossdressing is nothing more than a verb, one which describes the act of wearing women's clothing, and yet this main forum that we're on is chock full of people who go cross-eyed when one of us 'TG Spectrum' theorists tries to point out that most CDs are in fact trans and are on one end of that spectrum.
But that, as they say, is another discussion, What your leaving out of what you say is how one thinks and feels inside. (sense of gender as learned over a period of years)
Like i said earlier, gender is mostly what goes on between a persons ears.
Remember, you can't prescribe that gender is all about what is seen and worn and how someone "acts".
As you said...…...
"Therefore a man with a beard and wearing a dress is considered as non-binary due to the fact they do not fall under one of the binary stereotypes.
I would even argue that anybody who does not present 100% as female (under-dressers, people who do not wear a wig for example) would fall under the NB category which would mean the majority of this forum. I will even admit that I would be considered NB due to the fact that I do not always present as 100% female most of the time."
NBs can explain fairly easily why they feel the way they do, most of us can tell about how difficult it was living a life not feeling right in our skin, how we know we weren't matched with our biological sex, the back and forth in our heads about things like transitioning and HRT.
You said.....
"NB means somebody who does not conform to one of the 2 (binary) gender stereotypes. One being a man who acts/looks like a man, the other being a woman who acts/looks like a woman (TS women included)."
Maybe this is part of the problem, it's pretty flimsy when you say "acts/looks like" to describe gender stereotypes and then go on to say a man wearing a beard in a dress acts/looks like a woman in gender.
Does any of that help?
Cass
p.s. No offense Phili, I know from reading your posts, you do have a deeper sense of gender than what most peeps who identify as miad, I was just going from most have said.
Last edited by Cassandra Lynn; 12-17-2018 at 12:35 AM.
I agree with you, Cassandra, that there is more to it, but just because somebody doesn’t identify as something or believes otherwise doesn’t make it true.
As an example. Somebody may identify as being straight, but if they are only attracted to men and only have sex with men, then despite what they may “think”, they are still considered as gay by general society.
The term non-binary literally refers to the 2 common social stereotypes assigned to men and women. (Bi = 2). To be non-binary means you do not fit in with either of these social stereotypes. That simple.
Last edited by Kas; 12-17-2018 at 12:50 AM.
Thank you, Becky.
Now I know what I am. A MIAD, a man in a dress.
GeorgeA
formerly Salerba
"a miad" Man-in-a-Dress
The word Binary refers to two, Bi = 2 (Binary Code for example), referring to the two social stereotypes, one for each sex. So yes, it is just 2 things. Here is the definition of binary for those that didn’t know (seemingly everybody):
1. relating to, composed of, or involving two things.
2.relating to, using, or denoting a system of numerical notation that has 2 rather than 10 as a base.
It’s such a simple concept to understand. I don’t know why everybody is having such a hard time wrapping their heads around it.
Topics like this are impossible to discuss because everybody just makes up their own definitions of what something is despite the term having an already agreed upon meaning.
Last edited by Kas; 12-17-2018 at 01:15 AM.
So we are in agreement Cas - Non Binary means NOT involving two things - could be three or one or sixty seven or none
A.K.A Rebecca & Bec
Haha well I wouldn’t give a number. It can be anything which doesn’t fit into the 2 (binary) gender stereotypes. So infinity? 😛
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I’m not saying they’re not males. But a man wearing a floral dress certainly is not fitting into the “male” gender stereotype, therefore making them non-binary in the true sense of the term. Of course if you pay some cis guy to wear a dress or an actor wears a dress, that won’t make them NB, but I’m referring to crossdressing where we have the option to conform, but choose not to.
Of course this all goes out the window if everybody just decides to make up their own definition of what non-binary is and choose not to use the already agreed upon meaning.
Last edited by Kas; 12-17-2018 at 01:46 AM.
Thanks Cass, your reply to Kas saved me the trouble.
Kas, I am non-binary and I am non-binary ALL the time. I am non-binary when I'm naked and I'm non-binary when I have overalls on to the crawl under the car and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the clothes that I have on at any one time. Now, as it happens it matters to me that people realise they are not dealing with a brainwashed stereotypical binary person so my outward presentation is usually androgenous BUT this does not mean I am non-binary only when I present as a mixed gender. Oh and to be clear I never ever dress as a 'man in a dress'. On the rare occassions I do wear a dress I try to look like a woman. So no, you are wrong, NB and MIAD are NOT the same thing at all.
Looking at your replies to Becky and Cass it seems you just don't seem to get it, or at least you don't want to get it and would prefer an arguement. Try this statement: "Non-binary is a gender identity NOT a presentation". Simple really when you say it like that, I mean how hard is it to grasp that statement. Now go back to Salerbas' comment at #68. Salerba is a man, period, he identifies as a man all the time but it just so happens he likes to wear a dress every now and then (good call). I don't know but I'm sure he has other hobbies like fishing or something. Going fishing wouldn't change his gender identity and wearing a dress doesn't either. Salerba doesn't want to be described as non-binary because he isn't non-binary. I'm struggling to understand why that is so difficult to grasp.
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Well maybe not Cass because my non-binary bridge between binary genders is all about ones internal gender identity whereas Kas here is confusing presentation with identity. You stand in your correct place on the bridge naked, wearing clothes, any clothes, does not change the position towards one bank or the other.
Last edited by DaisyLawrence; 12-17-2018 at 11:53 AM. Reason: spelling, again
How about instead of NB crossdresser we go with Panvestite. That makes zero comment about gender. 😘
AMAB but I have a thin waist and enough fat in my chest, butt, and thighs to look like a GG. I'm routinely gendered as female wearing a tight fitting T shirt and jeans. It is a delight to shop for clothes that fit me perfectly!
Last edited by Maid_Marion; 12-17-2018 at 07:43 AM.
I have absolutely no desire to be female. I don't feel like a woman trapped in a man's body. I love skirts, hose and heels! I love the clothing options on both sides of the store, for different reasons.
xxoo
Jennifer
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