Forms and pads cross the line...

[Teresa]

Kas,
Please don't get too heated over the replies, the problem is you question and replies are contradictory to a degree . Helen and I are totally out the door , neither of us are on hormones to achieve that . I personally have thought long and hard about that issue, it is a balancing act but like Helen it doesn't make total sense to put your body through that if you wish to stay safely inside , I'm not knocking it , it's what you are happy with .

I have to agree with Gretchen , the small steps eventually lead to a big result , to some a turning point in understanding their needs . Most of us have been down that road ( almost literally !) Daring yourself, pushing yourself it's a progression .

[Ressie]

Also, I have seen you refer to yourself as transgender, so your opinion isn’t really valid in this topic as I was asking about crossdressers who DO NOT view themselves as something more than just a crossdresser.

Aren't crossdressers considered transgender? Don't confuse TG with TS as many ignorant people do.

[SuzyZahn]

Pretty simple explanation that works for me is,,,, the better I can look, the better it makes me feel. I just enjoy the total transformation.

[phili]

Kas,
I have a foot in both worlds now, and I mention it bc you may find this happening to you, too. I regard body enhancements as basically a dishonest presentation that undermines my legitimacy, so I advocate my MIAD look.

Hypocritically, I only like dresses that have tight fitting bodices to emphasize my waist, pick patterns that take eyes off my broad shoulders, and I use underskirts to create the illusion of hips- with no qualms whatsoever!

When i get a wonderful chiffon dress with sewn in falsies, I remove them- but... just for a moment, looking down, I am deliriously happy. I realize at that moment exactly why my flat wife and daughter wear falsies, and seamlessly conform to what is expected to signal 'desirable female'- it is like makeup or nice hair- it is a look that has deep acceptance in thousands of years of art expressing the ideal female figure. They know they are falsies, but it is accepted and expected as a part of joining the club and proudly wearing the uniform.

I really am only stopped from participating by not wanting to spend all the effort trying to get my face to look feminine, given my certainty I wouldn't succeed. I am looking for the right weekend to spend a bunch of money and just see, tho! *[Yes -Teresa and others, I did hear you!]

So I just go out and visually proclaim new rules and a new game that includes mirls!

I got some initial flak here for that- but as has been said- eventually everyone realizes our big win is found through inclusive appreciation of our diversity. I ended up finding out that I could quite easily follow many other's paths.

[Patience]

I regard body enhancements as basically a dishonest presentation that undermines my legitimacy, so I advocate my MIAD look.

Well, if you wanted to suggest that crossdressers who seek to look as feminine as possible are being dishonest, I can’t see how you could have done better!

I'm curious as to what you mean by “legitimacy”.

Finally, I think it needs to be mentioned (again) that women use enhancing devices all the time, so it should be fair game for CDers. Virtually the whole cosmetics industry exists for the benefit of women. We just take advantage of the same resources. Is it only bad when CDers do it?

[Stephanie47]

When Kas started the thread I had some thoughts going. I wanted to see where this was going. I do agree with Kas kicking around the subject is worthy of exploration. I wish when I was a young man there is a site I could participate in or just be a lurker trying to gain some insight.

My two cents really comes from a counselor I see for war related PTSD. She does not know I have a need to wear women's clothing. I have no issues wearing women's clothing. My wife and probably many people around me have issues of I wearing women's clothing.

My counselor is of the opinion each person, male or female, has some DNA of the opposite sex. She says in some it is more than others. I see her opinion as a continuum. A sort of sliding scale starting at zero and going to 100% percent. If I accept this premise then a transperson needing to change his or her life to the other sex is as near as 100% as possible. Hence, the result is as much surgical remedy and hormones remedy as possible.

Me? Where do I fall into all this? I am comfortable with my male identity. I am not a woman trapped in a man's body. I have resolved all those contradictions with society a long time ago. As I have stated many times in my comments I have had periods of inactivity when it comes to presenting as a woman. If what my counselor says is true I can see that in myself. There was a period of raging hormones necessary to keep me alive. That period of time broke me down to acting as an animal. Developing senses of an animal to perceive mortal danger and act upon it. Truly, not a sexual thought in my head. When my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer the role of supportive husband became dominant. Protect my mate.

Do I need boobs? Probably not, but, it does enhance the image when Stephanie arises in me. Why did GG's pad their bras in their youth? Why do women have breast enhancements? Or nose jobs? May it is to try as best possible to meet their womanly mental image. I enhance my chest because I see uniformity in the female form. Whether small boobs or overly large breasts, women have boobs. I do not use hip pads. I never did. My form is 42-38-40. Very minor hour glass figure. My wife always said I have a nice butt. I will accept her judgement. I see many women who do not have an hour glass shape. More boxy. They seem to be comfortable without the hour glass shape. I am not saying those with a waist number larger than the bust size are not envious or desiring a leaner look. Most women seem to be comfortable with their self image. When it comes to makeup I see very few women plastering on the war paint. My wife wears some lip gloss on the days she works. Otherwise, none. She really does not need any makeup at all. At 67 she still have great skin and sparkling eyes. Frankly, some women go overboard and really present a negative image with the makeup.

I think the extent a male is going to want to present as a woman really depends where he/she falls on the sliding scale. If a man is not comfortable with what he is doing I would recommend counseling.

[Teresa]

Phili,
I'm glad you're still speaking to me !

Yes I also hear you . I have to say after so many months the whole process is like falling off a log now .
I confess I still attend my art sessions in my old home town in drab , my tutor came to me a couple of weeks ago to ask if he should seek permission for me to attend dressed . We have a great relationship and I value his classes and his company but the classes are only viable if he gets ten or more students , I would hate to close them down because they weren't happy with me attending as Teresa . I have met them all dressed when I attended the private viewing day for the annual exhibition without any problems . I mentioned this because when the classes finish at 12.30 I have twenty miles to drive home, last week I had an appointment for 2.10pm back in my new home town I arrived home at 1.05 pm and was out of my home with full make up dressed by 1.45 , I'd also had time to grab a sandwich as well .

[Jane G]

I spent 50+ years wanting to be a woman. For reasons I do not understand but I suspect self preservation and the love of a good woman, I am, for now, simply a happy crossdresser. I have always used home made hip pads and forms since my sister's changed shape and I felt left out. I still use them my female cloths fit me better I look better and therefore I feel better with them, always have, always will. Gender dysphoria, that's just a term. We each live are own lives the best we can.

[Helen_Highwater]

Wow... If you think the only reason people start HRT is to go outside and show off then you are sadly mistaken.

Your question doesn’t make any sense either. If I have a feminine figure, voice, facial features then of course I would be happy to go out. That is what I am trying to achieve and the whole point of starting HRT. Also, what is this thing with percentages? Explain the difference between what 98% and 100% would mean to you? There is not a single point where you suddenly “become” a woman...

Kas,

The percent figure isn't mine, it's yours. I'm asking if, by your assessment, the outcomes of HRT fall even slightly short of giving you the look you desire such that, as you've written before; because I only want to go out as a girl if I look like a girl, then what are you going to do? It's a simple question. Will you continue presenting in drab while carrying noticeably femme features, possibly breasts but not sufficient that to an observer they're left to question your gender. Surely you can see there's a possible minefield ahead for you? Many of those who actually transition have to resort to facial surgery to finally give them the look they desire.

About a year ago there was a series on UK TV about a clinic specializing in gender re-assignment. One of the attendees having gone through HRT and surgery still wouldn't go out dressed because he/she thought people would know he/she wasn't a female. That's what not thinking things through leads to.

I also take exception to the use of; "go outside and show off ". The implication is that any of us who do venture into the world dressed do so only to flaunt ourselves to the general public.

[Kas]

The percent figure isn't mine, it's yours.

Lol no it isnt. Where did i ever use percentages? Please show me the quote.... oh wait you cant. Because i never said it. I cant beleive you would blatantly lie like that...

Also, basically none of your comments have actually been about the topic this thread is about and are more just trying to insult me personally. If you dont have anything tonadd to the topic please stop commenting. If you want to fight with me, pm me, dont ruin my threads with your crazyness.

To answer your question (which is completely off topic from my OP) definitively, if i fall slightly short of where i want to be and there is nothing more i can do, then yes i will still go outside dressed. Using YOUR percentage scheme, 98% is still a pass from me. Are you happy now?

[Deedee Skyblue]

I agree with Tracii, if that is what you want to wear, I don't see any reason to ask about it - we need to be comfortable with ourselves and I don't see any reason to try and categorize ourselves. And I also get what Patience is saying - without doing something to change our body shapes, a lot of clothes we like to wear just don't look or fit right. Deedee

[phili]

Well, if you wanted to suggest that crossdressers who seek to look as feminine as possible are being dishonest, I can’t see how you could have done better!

I'm curious as to what you mean by “legitimacy”.

Finally, I think it needs to be mentioned (again) that women use enhancing devices all the time, so it should be fair game for CDers. Virtually the whole cosmetics industry exists for the benefit of women. We just take advantage of the same resources. Is it only bad when CDers do it?

Hi Patience,
I tried to say I was talking about my view of myself- I want to feel that people are seeing the me that they will find under my clothes, since dressing in public is about indulging my own feelings of sex appeal, without actually looking for sex. I did not make clear that I felt it was not dishonest in others, but rather an unnecessary burden for them, to pad up, and I had my great alternative solution of being a MIAD/mirl.

I tried to make clear for the benefit of Kas, who seemed to have a negative view on padding that he might, as I now do, totally get it. After I felt myself looking down and seeing breasts, not falsies, I felt the pleasure of actually looking like a female, and no need for further justification!

[Krisi]

Aren't crossdressers considered transgender? Don't confuse TG with TS as many ignorant people do.

I don't consider myself "transgender". I consider myself as a "crossdresser". Nothing more, nothing less. A crossdresser.

And let's be careful who we are calling "ignorant". Just because somebody doesn't agree with you doesn't make them "ignorant". It's quite possible that in their view, you are the ignorant one.

[Michelle Vinova]

Kas,
Your post come across pretty judgmental, which is probably why you are getting some tough responses. Judgy as in, if you wear forms/hip pads you have crossed a line and have a dysphoria problem!!

If that wasn’t your intent and you’re honestly just curious as to why some of us CD’s do then I’ll add my two cents:

I didn’t wear a wig/forms/pads for most of my life. I did put socks in my bra though, so maybe that still counts.
It was a slow progression for me as I’m sure it was for most. Add wig; add forms; add make up; add pads. All in attempt to get better at presenting as female.

As has been stated many times, breast forms feel great because they have a weight and bounce that just makes it all feel more natural. Hip pads definitely not. I look better in them for an hourglass shape but I don’t like that I can’t feel the panties and dress because of the pads. It’s a trade off depending on what I’m going for.

As far as dysphoria? I’m very happy with my life. I’m not a girl trapped in a guy’s body. But, I do like being able to be a guy and CD to be able to express a femme side too. Does society call us weird? Sure. Is it a mental dysphoria? Maybe it would be for us if we could NOT do it. Then we’d be unhappy.

I’d also like to point out, as was mentioned earlier, the late night gas tank fill up should not be ridiculed in any sense. That’s a big step towards overcoming fears that society has put on us about CD being wrong. The more of us that take that step, the better it is for our entire TG community.

[josie_S]

wow...a lot of claws came out in this thread!

I don't know that I have dysmorphia because I use breast forms. There is definitely a kind of woman I hope to emulate, and she happens to be curvy. I went from socks, to towels, to pantyhose filled with rice, to forms, and the only reason is bc the forms look the best. does that make me dysmorphic? maybe. but I'm also not unhappy with my blocky male frame either, until I want to wear slinkier clothes, and then the answer is enhancements and corsets. So I guess I'd say I don't know if I am. but I know I wouldn't be happy without my enhancements. To each her own

EDIT: I should've just copied Michelle's answer above..she said what I meant better than I did!

[Tracii G]

To each there own yeah I agree with that.
I don't see why people get mad if you don't agree.
We are all different.

[sometimes_miss]

I've had one person insist to me that GID is the root cause of all crossdressing; it's only finding the cause of that GID which may be different for each of us. While that may very well be the case, I can see a whole lot of people who will insist that because they are 'real men' who will tell you that 'this isn't the real me' when they crossdress, we're probably far, far away from ever being able to accept that truth and use it as a beginning to search for what is at the root of it all.
Crossing the line? It's all 'crossing the line'. Ask women if they're fine with us 'just crossdressing without using padding to emulate the feminine body shape'.

It's all crossing the line.

[Andrea2656]

It is an interesting question but you can take it on set further and ask is wearing women’s clothing indicative of gender dysphasia. Gender dysphoria is the distress you have based on your sex and gender at birth Wikipedia definition not mine). I like to wear women’s clothes and look as good as I can when I am expressing the Andrea side of me. But I have no interest in transitioning. I do not feel that I was born the wrong sex.

There is an enormous range of reasons that people crossdress. Some people may have gender dysphoria but I do not think that is is at all tied to choice of what we choose to wear.

I love my beast forms and hip padding as it makes me as Andrea look my best.

It is the wrong use of the term to just gender dysphoria on the basis of clothing and accessories.

Andrea

[Ressie]

I don't consider myself "transgender". I consider myself as a "crossdresser". Nothing more, nothing less. A crossdresser.

And let's be careful who we are calling "ignorant". Just because somebody doesn't agree with you doesn't make them "ignorant". It's quite possible that in their view, you are the ignorant one.

Transgender is an adjective as in: Yep, you're a transgender person in my view because you're a crossdresser.

[AllieSF]

In line with the much disputed definitions used and written by the Admins/Mods on this site, Transgender is the umbrella term under which is pantie wearers, to MIRL's/MIAD's, to Non-Binary and their own spectrum to TS from no post op nor hormones to post-op, hormones and living full time. Those that like their own definitions, so be it.

[Kas]

I personally agree that crossdressing is technically transgender, but for some reason this site decided to make a specific TG/Non-Binary section, making it seem as if it’s an all together completely different thing.

I can understand how it can be hard for some to understand.

[TG-Taru]

I don't think you need to be dysphoric or dysmorphic to wear forms and padding, it can just complete the look. Can be more, doesn't always have to be. Some CDs just like the clothes, some like the full appearance. And external body enhancement isn't yet body modification.

I do think though there is overlap between the different definitions, and different ways of being inside each. So I wouldn't worry overmuch what's beyond what. I agree with TG as umbrella term, but also consider it, when used about individuals and not the collective, as the area between CD and TS (or the area left over, being neither extreme) – or if you leave it vague, whether for want or uncertainty.

For me personally it's kinda opposite, wearing things like that is more like CDing. Ever since I started seeing myself more as a mid-spectrum TG/NB/short-of-TS, I'm more reluctant to use heavy-duty artificial enhancements – accentuate, not fake. I want it to be real me. So my forms and paddings were mostly used in my CD days, now I'd only consider them if I really wanted to wear something that'd look bad without. For others, falling short of the look can be more of an issue of course, and paddings are in – well, if I didn't have any natural at all, I'd also feel better with forms, for those times I'd feel lacking.

[Kas]

TG-Taru,

Interesting view, especially your last paragraph. Makes a lot of sense to me.

[Emily Occasionally]

This sounds a bit like the old argument that "If humans were supposed to fly they would have wings." Yet we still had the need to travel to far away places at incredible speeds. So we climb inside these steel tubes with wings. We have adapted to our needs as a species.

Padding and forms aren't crossing a line...they are an adaptation. We are for better or worse stricken with an internal situation whether in mind or spirit which causes us to, for whatever reason, desire to dress and feel effeminate and womanly despite our downstairs parts. There's nothing wrong with adapting to these circumstances. If we are to be ok with ourselves then we need to be able to adapt to these feelings inside us. If breast forms make someone feel like they are moving in the right direction with their condition then why should they deny themselves?

If you wear glasses does that make you dysphoric? No. So why would wearing breast forms mean you are? Some people need glasses and other people don't need them. Some people need breast forms and other people don't just like glasses. It's as simple as that. There are other things you can do to improve your sight like contacts or laser surgery but some people just like wearing glasses. The same goes with forms and pads.

[Aunt Kelly]

At the risk of lengthening yet another debate about labels...
The term "transgender" has become an "umbrella" term, encompassing under it all forms of gender non-conformity. Embrace the term or don't, at your pleasure. Just know that it has become something of a convention and that in light of that, a crossdresser is indeed, transgender.