A couple of questions for the "Closeted "here.

[Wildaboutheels]

I have a feeling that some here are Happily Closeted. You have no desire whatsoever to ever go out dressed in any way, shape or form. You might consider CDing a "hobby" as far as you are concerned. Likely you seldom, rarely or never post and whether you could ever "pass as a woman" has nothing to do with it. You simply have no need or desire to go out and likely have not told anyone or feel you need to share your secret.

Another group fits into the category of "I will never leave my house, because I could never pass as a woman". IF this describes you, here is something that might help you to escape.

Is there a difference between "passing as a woman" and just plain "passing"?

NO.

Consider that hundreds here over the years have gone out in some variation of "mixed presentation" and not been HASSLED in any way, shape or form by Joe Doe public. I (and probably many others?) consider this "passing" And do all of these people have any reason to make this stuff up?

And then you have the hundreds over the years who have claimed that "I passed as a woman" or can pass as a woman if I do x, y and z and/or as long as I don't have to walk or talk or...

Ummmm ok. You KNOW you "passed as a woman" because...??? So some member or members of JD public walked up to you and told you that right to your face or because you read their mind? If they smiled or nodded appreciatively or tipped their hat or gave you a compliment, does that mean they THOUGHT you were a woman? Is it OK to give another Human a compliment based on their appearance alone? If J D public doesn't seem to notice or care does it mean a man "passed" as a woman or a woman "passed" as a man. Unless a man or woman in the RW is actually seeking a partner, they really have no reason to be out trying to bust CDers.

Do they?

Unless of course CD busting is their favorite hobby?

IF someday escaping the closet is on your bucket list, why not THIS weekend?

Or would simply NOT being hassled (because of yur appearance) not be good enough?

[GaleWarning]

OK, here are a few reasons for staying closeted …

1. You are in a relationship, with children, and their needs are at least as important as your own. So you either don't dress, or you only underdress, or you only dress at home.

2. You are in a profession where you deal with young children. The risk of being victimised by superiors and losing your professional reputation and your job is huge. So you … etc.

3. Your job entails working with the public and the professional reputation of the company depends on you projecting the norms and values of the company through your presentation. So you … etc.

Perhaps escaping the closet is on your bucket list, but your situation right now requires that you exercise a little patience.

[ellbee]

A few things, if I may...


- I have been hassled in "mixed mode." Doesn't happen often, but it can & does happen. Even in 2018. And no, I don't consider "mixed mode" to have anything to do with "passing." Most people don't.

- When I used to do the 100% en-femme thing, there were a few instances where I was hassled -- two of which were moments away from fistfights. Granted, this was a loooong time ago. But, still.

- I am one of those who claims they've legit passed as a GG in some certain situations, back in the day. People can believe me, or not. Really don't care. I was there, as were some of my friends -- and you were not. I'll just say that things can suddenly become *very* surreal, opening a whole new can of worms that many non-GG's have probably had zero "training" and "preparation" for something of that nature.

- Finally, I will come at this "passing" thing from another angle: *I* once believed I was gawking at a hot GG, in person. Like, for a long time. I later find out (not the hard way ) that in reality she was just a *very* passable CD'er! Me, fooled?? Yep. So, yeah... I can personally confirm that it does happen sometimes.


Anyway, that is that.

I understand & appreciate your OP. However, some here know their own situation best... And if they wish to stay in the closet, for whatever reason(s)? Then that's their decision, honestly.

[Helen_Highwater]

Well may I throw another slant into the mix. I am in the closet to all, family, friends, everyone. I do however manage to go out dressed. As the saying goes, "Where's there's a will, there's a way".

Anyone who's a regular reader on these pages will know I'm not a supporter of the "passing" camp. I'm in the "blending" clan. I know I don't pass close inspection but as I've often wrote, I can hide in plain sight sufficiently well to be able to move around as I choose.

I understand those who have a job to protect but, this has to be remembered at least in the UK, going out dressed enfemme isn't a crime. In fact laws exist to protect you from harassment and discrimination. That said, for me to keep my secret, when I go out it's in places many hours drive from home. Places I'm unlikely to bump into anyone I know, plus I hope my transformation is good enough that they wouldn't immediately recognise me if our paths crossed.

There will always be reasons not to go out dressed. There are however just as many solutions enabling you to go out as there are obstacles.

[LaurenS]

I’m on Gale’s number 3. Laws do nothing to protect one from being shunned.

[Teresa]

Wild,
You asked the question to the closeted members but then talk about passing when out so who is this thread addressed to ?

I was going to wade in and object to your wording but realise the question is being asked to CDrs and MIADs and not TG/TS members .

All I will say is you are again giving the wrong impression to people struggling to step out the door . I agree very few do pass as women 100% but I do not believe the public are using the term ," Madam , Lady etc. to be kind they are reacting to what they see , I'm going to repeat again the voice isn't proving a problem in that equation for me .

To go back to your question of , " Passing as a woman , or just passing !" Can I ask passing as what ? To take up Helen's point going out to pass is a mistake , I go out intending to integrate , all I know is I'm accepted as Teresa and that's all that matters . The fact that I have been asked by several agencies if I wish to change my registerd name tells me I have been read as TG or possibly TS and that is what I'm being openly accepted as .

Kimberly questioned me when I said I had never been mis-gendered which truthfully I haven't , also I have never been hassled and it's almost a year now .

If you dig out an old thread of mine about being in or out , over 60% said the were out or preferred to be out , only a small number said thet were totally happy being in the closet .

It might be interesting to repeat that question , the only differnce being NB and or a MIAD has added to that mix which has happened in a very short space of time .

As I pointed out in another thread posted by you along these lines encouraging people to come out thinking the mixed mode dressing especially will not give you any hassle . Well this is the area where most will get verbal and or physical abuse . It might be better to advise people that when they do step foot outside they dress completely to build some confidence before experimenting with mixed mode dressing .

[Lacey New]

I belong to the happily closeted group. Aside from people here online, there are only a few people, sales associates, who know that an anonymous male has tried on and purchased a dress. There are probably a few others who suspect based on the sizes of Pantone’s, bras, slips etc that this anonymous man has purchased. But Gale Warning hit upon a few of the answers why I am in the closet. I do not want to bring any shame or embarrassment to my family, the people that I currently or formerly associate and or work with.
I built a life and a career around a masculine persona and for the most part, that is what I am and where I am most comfortable. However, I just like to wear panties and get dressed up every now and then. I,would not be comfortable any other way.

[susan54]

I pick up on a couple of aspects here. I have been out hundreds of times in Scotland and a few times in England and never been hassled in either full fig or part dressed. I don't claim to pass but there have been two occasions when I had been talking to sales assistants for ten minutes before mentioning my true gender. One was in a shoe shop and she was trying to sell me clumpy heels and I said I couldn't get away with that as it would give away my male gender and she was shocked - and I fear her colleagues teased her about it after I left. The other was in a shop selling saris in York and the female owner offered to help me try it on. Given her likely religion I though I had better point out that I was male - just in case she had not realised. She said she had just assumed I was a tall lady. It hasn't happened for a while but I usually interact only with people I know.

Most of my friends and none of my colleagues know I cross-dress. I am about to go shopping 35 miles away and will be presenting as male (ie no bust) but in a dress, black opaque tights and heels, female leather gloves, with male jacket and hat and probably male bag rather than handbag (haven't decided yet). I am getting more and more reluctant to do the whole make up and wig thing which I only do when going out. I have run into someone I knew when dressed to the nines and I think it was down to pure luck that she did not recognise me. So if I am going to meet anyone I know I would rather it was as a man in a frock than a man presenting as a woman. I am going dress shopping in the sales and I might as well wear a dress to do it - after all if you are in male clothing and bump into a colleague as you emerge from the changing room in a womens boutique carrying a couple of dresses there is not much room for doubt.

[Mermaiden]

I am closeted and expect I always will be. I don’t see myself as a woman, rather I’m fairly masculine in interests, habits, appearance. I just really like wearing women’s clothes. Mostly underwear and sleep wear, but at home alone I enjoy a dress or a skirt. But I am just a guy in women’s clothes. I wouldn’t expect anyone else to see me differently. Of course if the world was comfortable saying “there’s a rugged guy looking great in lace and satin”, then I’d go out.

[Wildaboutheels]

Ok,, it's not WRONG for anyone to claim they "passed as a woman". I have Never claimed that no "man" here or at any other Forum, could never "pass as a woman". I am not trying to pry anyone out of their closet. I am not in any way implying that anyone should not/never do their best to "pass as a woman".

FACT: MANY here claim all the time, that they would/could never go out because they "could not/never pass as a woman". This MIGHT imply that except for the passing part, THEIR own particular situation would "allow" them to go out. The passing part is the ONLY thing that keeps them from going out?

NO ONE CAN READ MINDS. Making assumptions about what people are thinking is silly. Their body language MIGHT give some indication. IFFFFF they maintain eye contact and sneer, grimace, growl or verbally assult you to your face (and NOT from the safety of their car stopped at an intersection or from across the street or within a gaggle of fellow teenagers where they feel empowered to puff up their feathers) that's probably a good indication of what they are thinking. Otherwise, all bets are probably off.

How many here are willing to claim they can pull off the female "look" AND walk AND talk? Regardless, of what the number is, does it matter?

This thread is simply a line of thinking that MIGHT help SOME members eliminate a common excuse here. A line of thinking.

Of course, if one has a closed mind...

[Stephanie47]

All that stuff about 'blending' or 'passing' in plain sight is great if you're not six foot and 200 pounds. My physic is great for a guy. I've weathered well over the decades. I look at pictures where I am standing among of group. I tower over the vast majority of women. The only person in my family taller and bigger than myself is my son; six foot four. How to I 'blend?' I wish some of you who constantly promote going out list your height and weight. If I was short and stocky I'd have more of a chance of 'blending/passing' as an overweight woman. There are plenty of them around.

As pointed out by Gale there are valid reasons not to strut around en femme. And as Lauren says, laws do not protect you from being shunned by family, friends and coworkers. Is it worth losing an active social life just to go out en femme?

On occasion I venture forth to satisfy a pent up urge to go out. I will get en femme; dress, bra, panty, slip, hosiery, heels and wig and take an evening stroll in a safe residential neighborhood. Once my urge to feel a cool breeze caressing my legs and thighs has been satisfied it's home. At home I do get things done; domestic chores, cooking and baking, etc.

For those who feel the need to go out just to go out, think about risk vs reward. I look at towering Mount Rainier every day. I do not choose to scale it just because it's there. Same with dressing and going out in public.

[Tracii G]

Totally up to the person what they want to do. Go out or not go out dressed ok thats fine with me.
Plenty of reasons to not do it or do it for that matter it just depends on the person.
Blending is not exactly passing but some are fine with that,some want to pass totally so thats what they strive to do its all good.
I have been out hoping to blend with no intent on passing and had a woman start chatting with me as we were standing in the checkout lane at a dept store.
When I spoke back to her she seemed shocked and said Oh my you are a man? I said yes sort of.
She smiled and said well you sure do look and act like a woman you really look fabulous and I love your outfit.
Was she being honest you may ask? It sure seemed that way

[Patience]

You might consider CDing a "hobby" as far as you are concerned.

Please click here.

I don’t care if I pass or not when I go out. I just expect to be taken seriously and treated with respect. Luckily, I live in a place where this behavior is tolerated. That being said, there have been occasions when people have started conversations with me to hear the sound of my voice and I've been ogled by men on more than one occasion (not that I encourage it).

Even though I go out dresed frequently and am out to some of my friends, I’m still closeted to my family and, in your own words. Happily so.

[Crissy 107]

Tracii, That just made me smile, you handled it very well like I would expect you would.

[Maria_mtf]

Yes closet, no don't want to be, reason why not this weekend, wife and kids.

[JenniferMBlack]

Many things can happen when one goes out. You can go out do your thing and everyone either doesn't care doesn't notice or just plain doesn't say anything. Did you pass? Most would say yes. Or you can go out and you see people do double takes maybe a snicker or maybe even a thumbs up or some kind of acknowlegement they know your a guy. Or there could be someone who for what every reason decides you need a butt whooping. These are pretty rare in this day and age but I'm sure there are some mouth breathing Neanderthals still out there. Truth is probably 80 percent of people won't say or do anything even if they notice. If it is your desire to get out then do it, the biggest obstacle is your own mind. If one wants to stay in the closet that is their choice and they can go with that.

[Shelly Preston]

Wild, I would say almost everyone here has been stuck in the closet at some point in their life.

As for passing well that will be different for everyone. I know I did not come close to passing on my first time out to a TG (sparkle) gathering. However over time with a lot of support and advice from friends my presentation has improved.

Its about being accepted however you present. I am sure if you ask 100 people about me you will get a lot of different answers. As to what percentage think I pass I will never know. The good thing is I never get hassled anywhere.

I know a few have thought I pass as they only found out later but that's a longer story.

Everyone will have differing reasons for not going out, but that is their decision and no one should ever feel pressured to do so.

[Teresa]

Wild...,
Perhaps the question could be asked to other members, " What is your main reason for not stepping out the door ?" Would the " Utopia " of passing come top of the list ? Many start with a drive and possibly a quick walk , to many possibly like me the hurdle was the wife or partner in other words DADT and not the thought of passing . It was more to do with wearing women's clothes in a risky or tricky situation , half not wanting to be caught and half hoping you might .

I also read into your thread of the " Ideal and or perfect woman !" In the past there have been many threads about people or GG watching , it only takes a few minutes to realise men and women come in all shapes and sizes . Finding a look we can work with isn't that hard as long as we are realistic , I go for the slim perhaps even boyish figure because it's easiest to achieve , no lower padding and just enough in the bust to balance it up . I have reasonable legs and judging by many comments from the neck down I am very passable . The work comes from the neck up , to me that means a good choice of wig and my makeup colour checked and balanced , the learning curve being how little rather than too much . On the whole I do get by as you can see in my avatar so all in all I feel I've stepped over that thin line between male and female to a point of being accepted . I know I walk too fast and I don't change my voice but my message is clear that I'm presenting as female enough to be accepted as one , do I get backward glances ? Not very often but I don't now see them as negative , some may think I look a reasonably attractive female some may like my outfit the important point is stop looking for a reaction , I found that is when they stop coming .

To pose another question , " What does going out the door into the RW really mean to members ?" To me dressing at home as Teresa was meaningless , I didn't separate to hide in the closet , I intended to go out and do everything as Teresa , the sitution has changed , there are no more highs and lows in fact I wouldn't call it crossdressing anymore . To me this is what " Passing " actually means I've passed through a barrier .

[Roxanne Lanyon]

I was closeted for so many years, that I just do not know how to feel completely comfortable as Roxanne. I wish I did. I want to learn, and to have a partner that will go through this feminine life with me. I should be a sweet lady!
Roxanne

[MonicaPVD]

I'm in the same situation as Helen. I go out in public despite not being out about my dressing to anyone in my family or social circle. I enjoy going out and just being who I am inside, under the male veneer. Whether I pass or blend is not of great importance to me. Well, my primary concern is more with not being recognized as the male "me" by acquaintances while out dressed. I have walked passed coworkers and friends on several occasions, sometimes even exchanging glances, and they were completely unaware. I am a firm believer that passing or blending has more to do with one's sense of self awareness and comfort than with what others may think. If you carry yourself with confidence while presenting as a woman, you will be treated as one. If you are nervous or fumbling around or trying to disguise yourself, that will show and that tends raise red flags among people who are mostly just going about their self-absorbed lives.

[docrobbysherry]

I would like to comment on some things in your posts, Wild:

1. I consider myself a closet dresser. Only my immediate family and maybe 200 dressers and CD friends know about Sherry. Because I go out ALL THE TIME! Just not near where I live.
Went out with a GG friend last nite to a vanilla club dressed as elves. Because being seen out with a GG will often legitimize you're NOT being a weirdo with many folks!


2. Passing and being tolerated/accepted as a dressers r as different as nite and day. How do I know I passed? Because I got hit on by guys in vanilla venues around Halloween! When I said something they all vanished!
Generally, people either don't notice dressers, bend over backwards to be nice, or laff, r rude, and give u the fish eye!

3. A dresser going out and not getting flack is like riding a unicorn! I rarely ever go to vanilla venues dressed because I don't want to be constantly worried about where the next rude comment or dirty look is coming from!
if u go out often? U need to be really confident and have THICK SKIN!

[sometimes_miss]

very few do pass as women 100% .

That's what passing is. 100%. There is no '99%' passing, because there's no such thing as only being 99% female any more than you can be 99% dead. People either see you as a male or as a female. There is no middle ground.

I am not trying to pry anyone out of their closet. <snip>
This thread is simply a line of thinking that MIGHT help SOME members eliminate a common excuse here.

So you're helping them to 'get out there'.
I'd say that is trying to get people who don't want to do something, to do it anyway. Otherwise, there's no reason to 'help them'. They're fine the way they are. There's plenty of information here about all the ways to go out dressed as safely as possible. But no matter how much you downplay the potential negative consequences, they are still there. We do not live in a world where everyone loves a crossdresser. There are still people out there that hate us just for what we are. We are still getting killed 'for no reason' other than being crossdressers. We are still getting beaten. We are still being laughed at behind our backs, we are still being evicted , we are still being fired from our jobs, we are still being shunned by our families, we are still being 'unfriended' by people because they don't want to be around us, we are still being thought of as perverts who are dangerous to children. Do they do all that while using the fact that we are crossdressers as the reason to keep us out of their homes, their jobs, their families? Nope. They can come up with all sorts of other more acceptable 'politically correct' reasons instead. That way they don't get sued for discrimination. But the real reason is because they think we are perverts, or worse.
No, not everyone treats us this way. But it doesn't take a lot, to cause us a whole lot of problems that we simply don't need any more problems and inconveniences in our lives just because the front line warriors think it's a good idea for all of us to out ourselves.
Would it make it easier for the next generation of crossdressers? Sure. Could it make my life a nightmare once again like it was when I was a kid? Absolutely.
And I don't want to have to move halfway across the country and live in the style of being in the witness protection program just because of making a mistake and coming 'out'. Word can spread. Especially if you work in an occupation where lots of people move around. I've met people thousands of miles away in my area of specialty, who knew people in the area where I work. Could I wind up being outed that way? Certainly. Would it definitely happen? Who knows.
But as the saying goes, you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube, and you can't un-ring a bell.
Go out if you're okay with being outed. If you're not okay with having the world know that you're a crossdresser, do not be fooled by all the naive folks here who insist that you have no worries at all should you do it.

[Becky Blue]

I too am going to respond to this thread even though you addressed it to closeted people. As someone who has been out over 25 times I feel the need to comment, you choose to go out as a MIAD - that is your choice. Many of us choose not to do that, when I go out it is to blend in.

Your OP was basically saying that those of us who go out to pass or blend are fooling ourselves. Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to think that everyone instantly recognises us as guys dressed up, but most people simply say nothing. The reality (and speaking from my own experience) is that it is pretty easy to go out and blend in as just another woman out doing her thing. How do I know this, well its simple really you can see it in people's eyes, if they realise your not who you seem to be its almost impossible for them not to show at least a small reaction in their eyes.

As regards myself I have not been able to perfect an appropriate woman's voice, so currently i don't really bother to try. When I choose to talk to a SA or a waiter etc... I see the surprise in their eyes when i speak. Of course its probable that some person here and there look at me and think Hmmm I wonder, but I can absolutely guarantee you they are a tiny minority. BTW I have also been out many times with 'The Girls' where there is no attempt to blend instead its look at us we are 'TGirls' out and proud. The looks and re4actions from people is completely different to when I am out blending in.

I felt the need to post this, as I feel you are talking from your limited perspective, you asked for opinions from people who are closeted about going out and passing.

On passing - people are getting really hung up over the definition of one word. If you step out into the real world and walk past a person who does not pick you that IS passing.

[GeorgeA]

I am happy in the closet, actually the house. I have no desire to go out as I'm a MIAD and our society is not ready yet to accept a bearded man in a skirt on our streets.

[GaleWarning]

On a point of clarification, the reason I am happy to remain in the closet is #2 in my first post above.
That, and because I have complete freedom within my own home to dress as I please.
Ah, the freedom of one's chains!

Happy New Year to everyone!