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Thread: It's not the same thing because...

  1. #1
    Junior Member Meeshell's Avatar
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    It's not the same thing because...

    Hey Girls,
    I'm sure I'm not the only one who's ever had this conversation, so I want to throw this out there for your input or experience.

    Question: "How come, in today's society, it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to where men's clothes but not for a man to wear women's?"

    Answer: "You're not comparing apples to apples. A man wearing women's lingerie is not the same as a women wearing a men's shirt and pants, even underwear, because... "


    Ok girls. take it away, what "because's" have you heard or do you have?

    Meesh
    I'm not a woman trapped in a man's body.
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    I'm just pretty in pink

  2. #2
    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    Let's add that women now can wear men's underwear as well! Y-front! I'm amazed- AND I think it makes the injustice you point out even more explicit. https://www.jockey.com/catalog/produ...SABEgKlp_D_BwE

    My opinion on this is that there obviously is no reason why men can't wear women's clothing without ridicule- except that it is still customary to fear,shame, ridicule, and suppress men who do! The reasons for that oppression don't hold up to scrutiny under the warm glow of humane and caring interest in the internal feelings of men, and the shame, belong to all those who suppress their children. Women are suppressed, too. To wear cute simulations of men's underwear is an example of the diminuitive treatment of women as unserious competitors. And many counterpunch by being enforcers on men.

    Granted it is a chicken or egg problem of social evolution - parents suppress children to avoid social punishment, and everyone is looking at everyone to see who is going to be brave first. I think we are making progress via the trans children being recognized, and males and females in the middle ground merging.
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  3. #3
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Meesh,
    If you're in the closet it's not a problem because no one knows , OK it becomes a problem if you are seen .

    Fast forward and now I find wearing womens clothes isn't a problem , to put it in Eddie Izzard's words they're not women's clothes but mine or should I say Teresa's .

    The point I'm making is I've been accepted wearing them , I haven't had a single problem in the RW , and no one knows what underwear I'm wearing apart from the SAs who sold them to me . The only point I can't answer is what does the public think I am , I dress and present as a woman , have I stepped over that line that distinguishes male and female ?

    Phili,
    I'm wondering if your reply is based on being a MIAD , I'm not denying I haven't lived through and experienced some of your points , in fact I'm still getting that response from my wife that is partly why we separated , that aspect will never end for her but it had to end for me .
    Last edited by Teresa; 01-21-2019 at 09:54 AM.
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  4. #4
    ADMINISTRATOR Sandra's Avatar
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    Please remember the rules folks and lets have a good discussion on the topic.

    https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...es#faq_content

    Ridiculing members/non-members, or the manner in which they express themselves. This includes any complaint about the way females, males, transgendered, or any other cross-section of the membership dress, the way they express themselves (such as spelling and language skills, and any mention of religious beliefs, political preferences and affiliations, sexual preference, etc.)
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  5. #5
    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Underwear is a BAD example, Meeshall. Because no one except your SO knows or cares if u wear women's underwear!

    If that's your fetish and you're satisfied with just those items u can wear them anywhere, any time with zero issues!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

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    We are social organisms with social boundaries. If you are as old as I am you'll know that back in the 50's if a woman wore pants she was considered a "bad girl", and a threat to femininity. However women continued to challenge social convention until it became acceptable. So, in a way, women earned the right to wear more masculine clothes without upsetting their place in society.

    With men it is more complicated. We have a social hierarchy where men compete for the dominant male position. The dominant males get to rule, get the wealth, and get the females. Females are naturally drawn to the alpha males because they offer their progeny with privilege. Enter into this social structure a crossdresser. The other males see him as weak, and intimidate him to establish their dominance above the crossdresser. In fact, the crossdresser is considered near the bottom of the social hierarchy.

    Yes, its all a matter of social convention, and in order to change it we need to challenge social convention.

  7. #7
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    oh God here we go again. Let’s rehash all the points that have been made before shall we? Most women aren’t wearing men’s clothes, they’re wearing women’s clothes styled after women’s clothes. Men wear women’s clothes too (A kilt is just a skirt right?). It’s not actually that ok for women to wear men’s clothes because unless they do something to feminize them they run the risk of being called a “dyke”. Then there is latent homophobia and cheyvenism: a woman dressing as a man becomes more powerful while a man dressing as a woman is “weakening” himself. I’m sure I’ve missed a couple but you can just read the MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY thread on this topic that have been posted here.

  8. #8
    Yeah Ok like whatever Tracii G's Avatar
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    This exactly ^^^^^ pretty much beating a dead horse.
    I think many crossdressers are just trying to justify why they do this using that philosophy and guess what it doesn't work.
    Society is what it is and you just have to deal with the fact its not going to change anytime soon.
    Here is your answer wear whatever you want and don't worry about what others think.
    Of course homophobia runs rampant around this site but many will never admit to the fact they are a touch that way.
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  9. #9
    mini kilted chick t-girlxsophie's Avatar
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    Can you maybe research the kilt and it's history before calling it just a skirt please.

    Sophie
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  10. #10
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    what Micki said...

  11. #11
    Gold Member Alice B's Avatar
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    Because we have not been educated to accept such actions

  12. #12
    leggings junkie ellbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micki_Finn View Post
    Most women aren’t wearing men’s clothes...
    Actually, quite a few *are*. I've read one statistic where it's like 2 out of 3.

    It seems like it may be more prevalent in the younger crowd, say, teenager to about 40, but there are some older who do, too.


    And I'm talking like they go into the men's section for this stuff (or, simply "borrow" from their BF/hubby/brother/friend/whoever).

    Literally anything & everything from head to toe -- including some who do men's underwear.


    All kinds of reasons for this, really. Size, cut, comfort, price, style, whatever.


    Are they wearing a *full* outfit of men's clothes. A few do -- but most do not.

    Are they presenting themselves as a guy? Again, a few might -- but most do not. And some of these are total hetero "girly-girls," at that.


    I'd say you probably walk right by many of them all the time without a second thought or glance.



    Honestly, it's really not a big deal to them.

    Though I know it potentially can be for those who identify as non-binary, or perhaps an FTM in their "early days," who may go through some similar stuff as us.


    For any of those who doubt all this, feel free to do your own research to see for yourself.

    Heck, I've even had GG-friends & GF's wear *my* guy-stuff IRL!


    Oh, and if any GG's here who do would like to chime in, please feel free. Because I know there's at least one of you!

    Like I said, it's really not a big deal to the overwhelming majority of them.

  13. #13
    mini kilted chick t-girlxsophie's Avatar
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    A lot of us say we wear women's jeans because they are more comfortable etc,so what is the problem if a woman wears e.g. slouchy jumper,joggers etc it's not crossdressing it's most probably a comfort thing.or even something else whatever reason its just no big deal

    Sophie
    We look to Scotland,for all our Ideas of Civilisation-Voltaire

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  14. #14
    Member Diane Taylor's Avatar
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    The root of the problem is that gender is attached to clothing. If clothing wasn't described as "men's" or "women's" there would be no stigma attached to a man wearing a dress or a woman wearing pants. There was a time when a woman wearing pants was not acceptable.

  15. #15
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    No point in this argument. It is because it is. Live with it. And a kilt IS a skirt. I speak as a Scot.

  16. #16
    Aspiring Member jacques's Avatar
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    hello Meeshell and all,
    We do keep coming back to this topic for a reason. If we had the answer to the question then we would not have to return to it.
    I wear women's clothes and that is crossdressing. I do it in private because I think that "society" would not approve and because I am scared what my friends might think.
    My wife wears masculine women's clothes and sometimes some men's clothes in public and that is accepted by "society".
    It is not fair; I accuse "society" of being hypocritical. And we will return to this topic again, I am sure
    luv J (Jacques Hughes)

  17. #17
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    Traci G has the answer in her 4th sentence. And it isn't fair , it's discriminatory.

  18. #18
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t-girlxsophie View Post
    Can you maybe research the kilt and it's history before calling it just a skirt please.

    Sophie
    I own a few imported from the Highlands. I know what a kilt is. That wasn’t the point of the statement.

  19. #19
    Junior Member Meeshell's Avatar
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    This thread took some directions that I didn't anticipate, but, are interesting none the less.

    I figured we'd probably hear the "dead horse" sentiment. It kind of amazes me that this is a common happening in all the different forums I've participated in over the years. I still don't get why the smell of a dead horse just doesn't drive the frustrated parties to find something else of interest, instead of sticking around to voice their disapproval, but I certainly don't begrudge them their right to voice their opinion.

    I certainly understand the opinion of those who feel exploring a question like this is a tool we use to justify, to ourselves, what we are doing. At this stage of life, as I'm sure it is for many of you, I don't feel I need to justify anything. I've made my peace with who I am and what I do, and I guess if your concerned with it, then you will have to also.

    It was more my intention, or curiosity, to find out if some new perspectives on an old, at least for me, question may produce something I'd never heard before. I don't believe there is anything wrong with wearing whatever clothes you please. Clothes boil down to a covering for the body, whether it be for protection, decoration, expression, or whatever. Semantics change the world over, due to culture, climate, tradition, and many other factors. Gender, it seems has been a large influence on the words we choose to describe our coverings. Robes, dresses, skirts, kilts and many other descriptions are used to indicate an open bottom garment. You, as I'm sure you've seen, do not, however, want to tell a middle eastern gentleman that his robe is a dress, or a Scot that his kilt is a skirt. Social insinuations of these semantics run deep and will almost always result in an emotional reaction.

    The because... answer that I sense most, from my perspective, is ... motive. A reason based solely, near as I can tell, on societal "norms" or biases.

    Thank you all for your input. It was quite interesting to hear some comments from people, who's reason for participation in the crossdresser forum comes from a different set of circumstances than mine.

    Thanks girls, guys, and persons
    Meesh
    I'm not a woman trapped in a man's body.
    "not that there's anything wrong with that"-George Costanza
    I'm just pretty in pink

  20. #20
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellbee View Post
    Actually, quite a few *are*. I've read one statistic where it's like 2 out of 3.

    It seems like it may be more prevalent in the younger crowd, say, teenager to about 40, but there are some older who do, too.
    Source for this statistic? The problem is that out of context and with no degree of accuracy, this is essentially meaningless. Is it “like 2 out of 3” or is it actually 66.67%? Is that women who have ever worn any article of men’s clothing ever or is it women who wear it regularly? Does this count non-visible items such as socks or underwear? Is it women who have actually worn men’s clothes in public or does it include women who throw on their BF’s shirt around the house?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeshell View Post

    I still don't get why the smell of a dead horse just doesn't drive the frustrated parties to find something else of interest, instead of sticking around to voice their disapproval, but I certainly don't begrudge them their right to voice their opinion.
    Because the moderators of this site generally encourage people to search for and contribute to existing threads rather than clutter up the forum with multiple duplicate topics that offer little to no new insight.

  21. #21
    Super Moderator char GG's Avatar
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    Personally, I purchase all of my clothes in the women’s department. (That does not mean that anyone can’t shop there.) The cut and styles are more to my liking and made to fit my body type. I’ve never worn anything that belonged to my SO.

    It seems this topic comes up every once in a while. There are many similar posts.

  22. #22
    Silver Member Devi SM's Avatar
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    It's a ridiculous traditional gender mindset.
    In any movie you see a couple spend first night, the next morning she will be on the kitchen cooking breakfast wearing his shirt. Nobody wouldn't find they look sexy.
    The same scene but now, the guy wearing her bra and panties cooking the breakfast. It doesn't matter if before they show in the movie how straight and varonil he can be, people will think a weird homosexual guy.
    In any movie you can see women hanging hands, sleeping together and having sex. People don't complain, accept it. Same scene 2 men. It's a gay movie.
    Stupid mindset.
    Last edited by Devi SM; 01-21-2019 at 07:15 PM.
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  23. #23
    leggings junkie ellbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micki_Finn View Post
    Source for this statistic?
    Figured this would be coming...


    Well, there's a reason why I specifically worded it the way I did: "I've read one statistic where it's like 2 out of 3"

    Is that the be-all, end-all fact? Nope! Do I know the exact methodology used in order to arrive at that number? Nope!


    If you really must know, I had originally seen that "2 of out 3" from a while back.


    So, I used my rusty-trusty interwebz, and found it rather quickly just now...

    It's from an article at Huffington Post. I know some of you here take that place as gospel, so, can't really argue with it, can we...

    It's also written by a co-founder of a "gender-free" clothing company. So, take that for what it's worth.


    Again: I have no idea how accurate that may be.

    Fortunately, a while back I had done additional research into all this, and not just relied on that one snippet. And yeah, I found a *lot*.

    Plenty of resources to choose from: Blogs, forums, YouTube, whatever. All at one's fingertips!



    Of course, one is also free to go into the real world -- and start digging around there.

    For example? Not too long ago at work, I had overheard a conversation... The GG (50-something wife & mother) was talking about how she had "borrowed" from her hubby the shirt she was currently wearing. How she likes this about it, what she likes that about it. And yeah, she continued how she does that a lot. "Oddly" enough, no one around her outwardly batted an eye.

    Also as mentioned, I've had GG-friends & GF's wear my guy-stuff as part of their daily public outfit, because they liked it & wanted to. Keep in mind, some of these were up to 25 years ago! So, this "trend" is really nothing new.


    I know it might be difficult to believe, but a lot of GG's do this. Again, they don't care! Clothes are clothes.

    Whether they intentionally go into the men's department (or in some cases, the boys' department ), or just swipe the clothes of some male in their life, it does happen way more than you think.

    And I am talking practically *everything*. Are they wearing tuxedo's or 3-piece suits to a non-Halloween event? Probably not most, from what I can gather.

    Though some that surprised me a bit, are men's shoes, and men's underwear. But, they have their valid reasons for doing so.


    I already know what I know about this. And I'm not looking to "debate" this... Which is why I also intentionally stated: "For any of those who doubt all this, feel free to do your own research to see for yourself. "

    Or don't!

  24. #24
    Lady By Choice Leslie Langford's Avatar
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    Right!...

    ...and that, of course, explains all those women and girls who I constantly see browsing in the men's section in department stores checking out (and buying) mens' socks, boots, sneakers, high-tops, flannel shirts, jeans, and assorted work wear, as well as jackets, T-shirts, and now even man-style watches with large faces and wide wristbands. To be sure...and perish the thought that they might be buying these items for themselves!..they are only buying them for their husbands, sons, and boyfriends etc. who are clearly too stupid, disinterested, or inept to buy such things for themselves. As if!...

    Of course, the standard excuse here is that men's clothing is just sooo much more comfortable than women's wear...and presumably even more so than the "feminized" versions of those same articles. Uh huh!

    I hate neckties; I find them too constricting, yet some women wear them in a similar way to make a fashion statement. A lot of women also hate their bras and can't wait to take them off after work. I can't wait to put one of mine on because it makes me feel complete, and that outweighs any associated discomfort in wearing one. It's all about feeling good about oneself. A false equivalency? Some might say so, but it's all a matter of perspective in the end, isn't it?

    Sorry, I don't buy into the argument that women only wear items of men's clothing or their equivalent because those things happen to be more comfortable for them (especially if tailored to suit their body types more closely), as that is too facile and self-serving. Someone really needs to explain to me why the term "menswear" even exists as a concept in the first place when it comes to women's clothing if utilitarianism is its sole purpose here. Why do women - when they feel the urge to be "trendy" or "edgy" - often immediately gravitate towards menswear to make their particular fashion statements? Do they really need to wear men's neckties, dress shirts, wingtips, brogues, and hats etc. (the proverbial "Annie Hall" look popularized by Diane Keaton years ago) to thumb their noses at the "patriarchy" and signal their liberation when they have so many other options to chose from amongst the wardrobe choices that society has deemed acceptable for them to wear?

    "Borrowed from the boys" seems to be an established hook amongst the fashion industry to get women and girls interested in new clothing lines each season. Why is that, and what makes that "cachet" so appealing to some women?

    I'll tell you why...it's because some women and girls get the same kind of kick out of pushing the boundaries of what society considers to be "acceptable" clothing for their gender as we do when we put on our frillies, but there is a whole lot less stigma attached to that activity in their cases. On the contrary, society often "high-fives" them for doing so, and sees them as courageous foot soldiers in the battle for gender equality when they want to compete with men on their own turf this way.

    And while we're at it, what's up with that scam known as "unisex" clothing? That's just code to indicate that women and girls continue to be encouraged to wear whatever they please, and more particularly, male-inspired clothing. When was the last time anyone saw a "unisex" skirt or dress (or even an androgynous version of one, if something like that even exists?) targeted at men or boys?

    The truth of the matter is: we crossdressers could exercise the same prerogative to openly wear what pleases us the way the womenfolk do - even if it knowingly (and deliberately) involves flaunting society's "rules" as to what constitutes gender-appropriate clothing - if that's what floats our boats. Trouble is, most of us lack the cojones to do so.

    I'll be the first to admit that seeing a MIAD out in the wild would be a jarring visual for me, but that is also the result of how I have been socialized. At the same time, I realize how fundamentally illogical that is, and I applaud the courage of all those here who are willing to put themselves out there in this manner and take one for the team, as it were.
    .

  25. #25
    Gold Member Maria in heels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diane Taylor View Post
    The root of the problem is that gender is attached to clothing. If clothing wasn't described as "men's" or "women's" there would be no stigma attached to a man wearing a dress or a woman wearing pants. There was a time when a woman wearing pants was not acceptable.
    Diane...I think that you nailed this one, and there is no disputing your answer to this question....its just sad and that is the way that our society is
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