It's not the same thing because...

[Meeshell]

Hey Girls,
I'm sure I'm not the only one who's ever had this conversation, so I want to throw this out there for your input or experience.

Question: "How come, in today's society, it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to where men's clothes but not for a man to wear women's?"

Answer: "You're not comparing apples to apples. A man wearing women's lingerie is not the same as a women wearing a men's shirt and pants, even underwear, because... "


Ok girls. take it away, what "because's" have you heard or do you have?

Meesh

[phili]

Let's add that women now can wear men's underwear as well! Y-front! I'm amazed- AND I think it makes the injustice you point out even more explicit. https://www.jockey.com/catalog/produ...SABEgKlp_D_BwE

My opinion on this is that there obviously is no reason why men can't wear women's clothing without ridicule- except that it is still customary to fear,shame, ridicule, and suppress men who do! The reasons for that oppression don't hold up to scrutiny under the warm glow of humane and caring interest in the internal feelings of men, and the shame, belong to all those who suppress their children. Women are suppressed, too. To wear cute simulations of men's underwear is an example of the diminuitive treatment of women as unserious competitors. And many counterpunch by being enforcers on men.

Granted it is a chicken or egg problem of social evolution - parents suppress children to avoid social punishment, and everyone is looking at everyone to see who is going to be brave first. I think we are making progress via the trans children being recognized, and males and females in the middle ground merging.

[Teresa]

Meesh,
If you're in the closet it's not a problem because no one knows , OK it becomes a problem if you are seen .

Fast forward and now I find wearing womens clothes isn't a problem , to put it in Eddie Izzard's words they're not women's clothes but mine or should I say Teresa's .

The point I'm making is I've been accepted wearing them , I haven't had a single problem in the RW , and no one knows what underwear I'm wearing apart from the SAs who sold them to me . The only point I can't answer is what does the public think I am , I dress and present as a woman , have I stepped over that line that distinguishes male and female ?

Phili,
I'm wondering if your reply is based on being a MIAD , I'm not denying I haven't lived through and experienced some of your points , in fact I'm still getting that response from my wife that is partly why we separated , that aspect will never end for her but it had to end for me .

[Sandra]

Please remember the rules folks and lets have a good discussion on the topic.

https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...es#faq_content

Ridiculing members/non-members, or the manner in which they express themselves. This includes any complaint about the way females, males, transgendered, or any other cross-section of the membership dress, the way they express themselves (such as spelling and language skills, and any mention of religious beliefs, political preferences and affiliations, sexual preference, etc.)

[docrobbysherry]

Underwear is a BAD example, Meeshall. Because no one except your SO knows or cares if u wear women's underwear!

If that's your fetish and you're satisfied with just those items u can wear them anywhere, any time with zero issues!

[Micki_Finn]

oh God here we go again. Let’s rehash all the points that have been made before shall we? Most women aren’t wearing men’s clothes, they’re wearing women’s clothes styled after women’s clothes. Men wear women’s clothes too (A kilt is just a skirt right?). It’s not actually that ok for women to wear men’s clothes because unless they do something to feminize them they run the risk of being called a “dyke”. Then there is latent homophobia and cheyvenism: a woman dressing as a man becomes more powerful while a man dressing as a woman is “weakening” himself. I’m sure I’ve missed a couple but you can just read the MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY thread on this topic that have been posted here.

[Tracii G]

This exactly ^^^^^ pretty much beating a dead horse.
I think many crossdressers are just trying to justify why they do this using that philosophy and guess what it doesn't work.
Society is what it is and you just have to deal with the fact its not going to change anytime soon.
Here is your answer wear whatever you want and don't worry about what others think.
Of course homophobia runs rampant around this site but many will never admit to the fact they are a touch that way.

[ellbee]

Most women aren’t wearing men’s clothes...

Actually, quite a few *are*. I've read one statistic where it's like 2 out of 3.

It seems like it may be more prevalent in the younger crowd, say, teenager to about 40, but there are some older who do, too.


And I'm talking like they go into the men's section for this stuff (or, simply "borrow" from their BF/hubby/brother/friend/whoever).

Literally anything & everything from head to toe -- including some who do men's underwear.


All kinds of reasons for this, really. Size, cut, comfort, price, style, whatever.


Are they wearing a *full* outfit of men's clothes. A few do -- but most do not.

Are they presenting themselves as a guy? Again, a few might -- but most do not. And some of these are total hetero "girly-girls," at that.


I'd say you probably walk right by many of them all the time without a second thought or glance.



Honestly, it's really not a big deal to them.

Though I know it potentially can be for those who identify as non-binary, or perhaps an FTM in their "early days," who may go through some similar stuff as us.


For any of those who doubt all this, feel free to do your own research to see for yourself.

Heck, I've even had GG-friends & GF's wear *my* guy-stuff IRL!


Oh, and if any GG's here who do would like to chime in, please feel free. Because I know there's at least one of you!

Like I said, it's really not a big deal to the overwhelming majority of them.

[Confucius]

We are social organisms with social boundaries. If you are as old as I am you'll know that back in the 50's if a woman wore pants she was considered a "bad girl", and a threat to femininity. However women continued to challenge social convention until it became acceptable. So, in a way, women earned the right to wear more masculine clothes without upsetting their place in society.

With men it is more complicated. We have a social hierarchy where men compete for the dominant male position. The dominant males get to rule, get the wealth, and get the females. Females are naturally drawn to the alpha males because they offer their progeny with privilege. Enter into this social structure a crossdresser. The other males see him as weak, and intimidate him to establish their dominance above the crossdresser. In fact, the crossdresser is considered near the bottom of the social hierarchy.

Yes, its all a matter of social convention, and in order to change it we need to challenge social convention.

[Diane Taylor]

The root of the problem is that gender is attached to clothing. If clothing wasn't described as "men's" or "women's" there would be no stigma attached to a man wearing a dress or a woman wearing pants. There was a time when a woman wearing pants was not acceptable.

[susan54]

No point in this argument. It is because it is. Live with it. And a kilt IS a skirt. I speak as a Scot.

[jacques]

hello Meeshell and all,
We do keep coming back to this topic for a reason. If we had the answer to the question then we would not have to return to it.
I wear women's clothes and that is crossdressing. I do it in private because I think that "society" would not approve and because I am scared what my friends might think.
My wife wears masculine women's clothes and sometimes some men's clothes in public and that is accepted by "society".
It is not fair; I accuse "society" of being hypocritical. And we will return to this topic again, I am sure
luv J (Jacques Hughes)

[deebra]

Traci G has the answer in her 4th sentence. And it isn't fair , it's discriminatory.

[Maria in heels]

The root of the problem is that gender is attached to clothing. If clothing wasn't described as "men's" or "women's" there would be no stigma attached to a man wearing a dress or a woman wearing pants. There was a time when a woman wearing pants was not acceptable.

Diane...I think that you nailed this one, and there is no disputing your answer to this question....its just sad and that is the way that our society is

[ellbee]

Leslie,

FYI, after reading your post, I just smashed that non-existent "Like" button.


Where I do disagree somewhat...

Yeah, there's definitely some of that psychological stuff going on with *some* of the GG's who do this, sometimes... Even if it may be subconscious. Heck, some even recognize/admit it.

And honestly, I've got no problem with any of that. Good on them, if that's (fully or in part) why they're doing it.



However, there's also a very *pragmatic / practical * aspect to it, as well, for many of them in many circumstances.

If you have a choice between an article of clothing that's thinner & relatively poorly-made, versus a face-value equivalent that's way better quality, way thicker/warmer... *and* costs less? Yeah, I know which one I would choose, too.

That part happens a lot, apparently. And I can definitely see why these GG's do what they do, in that case.

Are there reasons why it can intentionally be designed that way? Yep. But you'd have to go to the executives & owners of these women's-apparel companies to get the real answer, heh. (And not all of them are men, BTW... GG's know GG-behavior best, after all. )



As for the MIAD thing?

I consider my presentation to be a sub-set of that. While I like having my recently-expanded options, I'm still most comfortable presenting as a guy, but wearing stuff from the women's side. (Granted, no dresses or skirts, as I'm really not into them.)

And yeah, it does take balls, depending on just how obviously-femmy one can get. Of course, going out fully en-femme takes guts, too, no doubt. They are somewhat psychologically different, in their own unique ways. But having done both throughout my life? On some levels, the MIAD-thing can be more difficult, IMO. It can be a big hurdle, for sure.


And this, at least in part, is how GG's got to where they are today, when it comes to fashion. They just started saying, "Screw it, I'm wearing this!" And so, they do. Tough at first, no doubt. But as time goes on, and more of them do it more often? At some point, it starts becoming "normal"... And no one really bothers to question it or bat an eye.

For men doing the same, it certainly poses some different challenges. I think we'd have a much more difficult time, for all kinds of reasons. But, that doesn't mean we can't try, either.


A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step?

[Alyssa Lane]

I’ve seen this argument on social media and a lady was going off about when a guy and a girl swapped clothes, she was all ape shit crazy saying guys shouldn’t do that, i had just responded and said for her to look up the history of the high heel and where it began. It was silent after that, although a lady I work with had responded and was astounded with my random knowledge I had. It was a nice compliment from her.

[char GG]

Personally, I purchase all of my clothes in the women’s department. (That does not mean that anyone can’t shop there.) The cut and styles are more to my liking and made to fit my body type. I’ve never worn anything that belonged to my SO.

It seems this topic comes up every once in a while. There are many similar posts.

[Leslie Langford]

Right!...

...and that, of course, explains all those women and girls who I constantly see browsing in the men's section in department stores checking out (and buying) mens' socks, boots, sneakers, high-tops, flannel shirts, jeans, and assorted work wear, as well as jackets, T-shirts, and now even man-style watches with large faces and wide wristbands. To be sure...and perish the thought that they might be buying these items for themselves!..they are only buying them for their husbands, sons, and boyfriends etc. who are clearly too stupid, disinterested, or inept to buy such things for themselves. As if!...

Of course, the standard excuse here is that men's clothing is just sooo much more comfortable than women's wear...and presumably even more so than the "feminized" versions of those same articles. Uh huh!

I hate neckties; I find them too constricting, yet some women wear them in a similar way to make a fashion statement. A lot of women also hate their bras and can't wait to take them off after work. I can't wait to put one of mine on because it makes me feel complete, and that outweighs any associated discomfort in wearing one. It's all about feeling good about oneself. A false equivalency? Some might say so, but it's all a matter of perspective in the end, isn't it?

Sorry, I don't buy into the argument that women only wear items of men's clothing or their equivalent because those things happen to be more comfortable for them (especially if tailored to suit their body types more closely), as that is too facile and self-serving. Someone really needs to explain to me why the term "menswear" even exists as a concept in the first place when it comes to women's clothing if utilitarianism is its sole purpose here. Why do women - when they feel the urge to be "trendy" or "edgy" - often immediately gravitate towards menswear to make their particular fashion statements? Do they really need to wear men's neckties, dress shirts, wingtips, brogues, and hats etc. (the proverbial "Annie Hall" look popularized by Diane Keaton years ago) to thumb their noses at the "patriarchy" and signal their liberation when they have so many other options to chose from amongst the wardrobe choices that society has deemed acceptable for them to wear?

"Borrowed from the boys" seems to be an established hook amongst the fashion industry to get women and girls interested in new clothing lines each season. Why is that, and what makes that "cachet" so appealing to some women?

I'll tell you why...it's because some women and girls get the same kind of kick out of pushing the boundaries of what society considers to be "acceptable" clothing for their gender as we do when we put on our frillies, but there is a whole lot less stigma attached to that activity in their cases. On the contrary, society often "high-fives" them for doing so, and sees them as courageous foot soldiers in the battle for gender equality when they want to compete with men on their own turf this way.

And while we're at it, what's up with that scam known as "unisex" clothing? That's just code to indicate that women and girls continue to be encouraged to wear whatever they please, and more particularly, male-inspired clothing. When was the last time anyone saw a "unisex" skirt or dress (or even an androgynous version of one, if something like that even exists?) targeted at men or boys?

The truth of the matter is: we crossdressers could exercise the same prerogative to openly wear what pleases us the way the womenfolk do - even if it knowingly (and deliberately) involves flaunting society's "rules" as to what constitutes gender-appropriate clothing - if that's what floats our boats. Trouble is, most of us lack the cojones to do so.

I'll be the first to admit that seeing a MIAD out in the wild would be a jarring visual for me, but that is also the result of how I have been socialized. At the same time, I realize how fundamentally illogical that is, and I applaud the courage of all those here who are willing to put themselves out there in this manner and take one for the team, as it were.
.

[mykell]

snip......
The truth of the matter is: we crossdressers could exercise the same prerogative to openly wear what pleases us the way the womenfolk do - even if it knowingly (and deliberately) involves flaunting society's "rules" as to what constitutes gender-appropriate clothing - if that's what floats our boats. Trouble is, most of us lack the cojones to do so.

I'll be the first to admit that seeing a MIAD out in the wild would be a jarring visual for me, but that is also the result of how I have been socialized. At the same time, I realize how fundamentally illogical that is, and I applaud the courage of all those here who are willing to put themselves out there in this manner and take one for the team, as it were.
.

when we do grow a set and collectively step out society will have a rude awakening of the transgender size and scope....having seen Miads in the wild i have observed their rituals and wanted to interact but simply watched others reactions as they picked up on it, interesting to say the least.

but yea today was looking at a pair of jeans at costco and thought boyfriend cut ??? boy shorts ???

[phili]

"Borrowed from the boys" seems to be an established hook amongst the fashion industry to get women and girls interested in new clothing lines each season. Why is that, and what makes that "cachet" so appealing to some women?

I'll tell you why...it's because some women and girls get the same kind of kick out of pushing the boundaries of what society considers to be "acceptable" clothing for their gender as we do when we put on our frillies, but there is a whole lot less stigma attached to that activity in their cases. On the contrary, society often "high-fives" them for doing so, and sees them as courageous foot soldiers in the battle for gender equality when they want to compete with men on their own turf this way.

And while we're at it, what's up with that scam known as "unisex" clothing? That's just code to indicate that women and girls continue to be encouraged to wear whatever they please, and more particularly, male-inspired clothing. When was the last time anyone saw a "unisex" skirt or dress (or even an androgynous version of one, if something like that even exists?) targeted at men or boys?

The truth of the matter is: we crossdressers could exercise the same prerogative to openly wear what pleases us the way the womenfolk do - even if it knowingly (and deliberately) involves flaunting society's "rules" as to what constitutes gender-appropriate clothing - if that's what floats our boats. Trouble is, most of us lack the cojones to do so.

I'll be the first to admit that seeing a MIAD out in the wild would be a jarring visual for me, but that is also the result of how I have been socialized. At the same time, I realize how fundamentally illogical that is, and I applaud the courage of all those here who are willing to put themselves out there in this manner and take one for the team, as it were.
.

This is the truth of my experience- we all know that we can go out in a dress- but there is a stigma. We argue here that we want others to make it OK for us- but that requires that we prove our self-respect first.

We know that individualists try to do what no one else does- and they encounter resistance. If they are not threatening those in power too closely, they are allowed space. I went through the stages of fearing to go out, desperate devil-may care going out, assertively and neutrally going out, and now I am not so desperate, and chilly tolerance feels like a friction I don't need in my life. I proved my point about validity to myself and others, and now I feel like I don't need to share deeper facts of my identity. Most days, I am focused on politely going out! I.e. where crossdressing is to be expected, or is at least not bothersome- like shopping!

If there were more of us in one place, we could follow accepted patterns of creating social evolution: groups of people start trends by coalescing around an idea. Consider the 'man-bun' fashion example-
"Man buns showed up in New York Times trend pieces as early as January 2012, and one of the first Tweets about the man bun came in 2011:

"@PrincetonBrooke: How I wore my MAN BUN today lol #TeamBlackAndFilipino #LongHairDontCare" (I REMEMBA THOSE DAYS) pic.twitter.com/cpD6buMm

— son of Hephaestus (@gvf_idont) November 8, 2011"

Fashion articles throughout 2017 and 18 talked about both '50 ways to wear your bun' and 'what to do with your long hair now the craze has ended'. It persists. The bun still feels ''borrowed from the girls' but just to be sure manned up with imagery taken from the Sumo wrestlers and Japanese swordsmen. Girls who wear ties and men's shirts are careful to leave the shirt tails out and the tie askance, etc., just to be sure everyone gets that they are not really trying to be men!

Why the explicit anchor left in traditional binary gender? Lexi's sociobiological explanation is also right- of course- the elephant in the room. We all know that we as males were told we were designated as protectors and that is a deep evolutionary task - a sacrificial position- that needs regular reinforcement to keep everyone sure we will run towards the gunfire when the attack comes. I believe I succeed as a MIAD because everyone can feel I would be a devil with a sword, despite my short skirt and high heels.

Bev's and Teresa's examples of success are [IMHO of course] because they are clearly saying- forget the swords- I am a woman! I can be relied on to grab the kids and hide them behind me. I"ll do my part - as a woman- and you can rely on that because I am doing it right now!!

But if with our presentation we are posing unclear or unresolved questions as to who we are, we can expect uneasiness in the instinctual parts of our observers. Regardless of specific items we can argue in the broad tapestry of gender, our problem is a bedeviling one- simple resistance to change. On any issue of change in the air, 90% the population will take steps to block it out, delay, avoid, etc rather than embrace or explore.

Picking a comprehensible presentation is important, and we will be accepted if we move forward with it and accept the friction. The friction will diminish, as resistance to change melts as the change moves forward.

[Devi SM]

It's a ridiculous traditional gender mindset.
In any movie you see a couple spend first night, the next morning she will be on the kitchen cooking breakfast wearing his shirt. Nobody wouldn't find they look sexy.
The same scene but now, the guy wearing her bra and panties cooking the breakfast. It doesn't matter if before they show in the movie how straight and varonil he can be, people will think a weird homosexual guy.
In any movie you can see women hanging hands, sleeping together and having sex. People don't complain, accept it. Same scene 2 men. It's a gay movie.
Stupid mindset.

[mykell]

found this in a search :
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=3396251
and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oT_mIYWrLw
so theyre discussing it....

[Stephanie47]

At times my daughter wore men's jeans because women's jeans did not have pockets to hold a slim wallet. Sometimes she wore men's plain shoes.
My granddaughter goes 'thrifting' with my wife and buys men's flannel shirts and jeans. One reason is men's clothing tends to be less expensive. As to the jeans my granddaughter finds the larger size young boy's jeans fit just fine.
My wife routinely buys men's graphic tee shirts because they fit her body type better than women's cuts.

In all cases none of them were trying to emulate a woman. For cross dressers it is more than the clothes. As my wife asked, "Why would a man wear a bra if he had nothing to pack into it?"

[JeanTG]

As my wife asked, "Why would a man wear a bra if he had nothing to pack into it?"

Easy answer: to hold my breast forms!!!

[ellbee]

mykell,

Your forum link is just one of countless examples. Plenty more out there like that.

Though I suggest to try to stay away from the contrived "Women Try on Men's Clothes!" type videos. Not exactly the real world.


Even with some of the more "real-life" YouTube videos, I think one would find more actual legit stuff in the *comment sections* of such. As there, there's really no (financial) incentive for those GG-commenters to share their views & experiences... So they're just gonna be straight-up with all this. If anything, *these* types of videos will bring the everyday-GG's out of the woodwork.

At times my daughter wore men's jeans because women's jeans did not have pockets to hold a slim wallet.

YouTube viewer/commenter: What was it like, having deep pockets for a change?

GG-YouTuber who, as a challenge & experiment, wore her brother's & BF's clothes for an entire week: Life changing



(And yes, she already typically wears *some* men's clothes before & after all this. Sounds like she nicked one of their shirts, too. )



Anyway, as for this "male-dominated society" of ours?

If that's truly the case, then all these "powerful, dominant" men should have absolutely no problems getting all dolled-up in front of their wives/ GF's, right?

After all, they are MEN... who can do whatever the hell they want.