Questions from the wives of my SO's social group

[char GG]

What difference is there to someone's overall life as men or women?
How would the overall quality of life be different depending on what gender they are?

As humans, we all need food, shelter, some means of support/job, and usually a hobby or two. Of course, the answers given by the social group centered on what clothes they could/would wear. That obvious answer is not really what the wives were trying to find out. I offered to put the question to this forum to find out what your opinions are. I'll pass along your answers at our next social gathering.

[Robertacd]

Well there's a thing called "male privilege" for instance. We may not always recognize that we are benefitting from it, but I bet we would miss it if it suddenly was not there.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Men communicate in grunts, Women communicate in sentences.

I don't buy the "male privilege" thing, All social groups benefit from herding as a social group, It's function of social interactions, not a privilege bestowed at birth.

My apologies roberta, did not mean to step on your post.

[Macey]

On one level or another, menfolk are always in competition. It's part of the social structure, and one that probably predates developing speech all of those millennia ago. From swapping stories and jokes: " Wait … I've got one better!" To vying for position in the 'tribe'. It is ingrained, and then socially reinforced. MOST often, it is expressed in healthy, affirming ways … no matter the 'pecking order', a man will have a chance to shine at SOMETHING among his peers, sometimes in negative ways if the competition is conducted dishonorably, or if the herd mentality goads the 'tribe' into bad behavior.

[Stephanie47]

There really are a lot of variables which create subsets. There is discrimination against short men and bald men unless they have money. Then it seems everyone fawns over them. Tall men dominate in the pecking order. There is rampant discrimination towards overweight women. Young attractive women (arm candy?) are viewed as desirable.

If your social group of women is equal in stature to their husbands/male companions perhaps differences may center on the clothes one wears. If they are subservient to men I think they have a problem. I know many women like status of being married to a wealthy man and enjoy a life of leisure. My world is not like that. The women in my family have been encouraged to venture forth and be educated. Sister went to college. Daughter went to college/masters in social work. Wife went to college, teacher. Granddaughter is a college freshman (freshwoman?, doesn't sound right). All are making a better quality of life.

Women who sit back on their heels end up being at the mercy of others. I encouraged all my female relatives to be educated. Then you are not joined at the hip to a man until he decides to dump you or abused you or cheat on you. Have to stop before I get time out.

[Robertacd]

Kelly, I am talking in a broad sense. For instance "victim blaming" in rape cases. You always hear things like "She was dressed provocatively", like that somehow excuses the rapist.

Along those same lines, unwanted pregnancy. Why are women told to keep their legs shut if they don't want children, but us men are never told to keep it in our pants?

[kimdl93]

I'm kinda slow... what were the wives really getting at by their questions? My only thought is that they were asking why clothes should matter, regardless of the gender context. Of course, probably shouldn't matter and probably individuals like myself shouldn't need a particular type of clothing to express anything at all about myself. Of course, that darned WHY keeps coming up and no one has a satisfactory answer for the frustrated spouse of a crossdresser.

[ellbee]

What difference is there to someone's overall life as men or women?
How would the overall quality of life be different depending on what gender they are?

To me, being a man means...


- I have to register with Selective Service at the age of 18 so I get to be involuntarily drafted to fight & possibly die for this country -- if I don't register, I could get thrown in prison or fined $250K, as well as lose access to a whole bunch of programs & benefits such as financial aid, job training & federal employment;

- I'm way more likely to get injured or die in combat;

- I'm way more likely to get injured or die on the job;

- I'm way more likely to get screwed over in divorce court;

- I'm way more likely to lose custody of my children;

- I'm way more likely to be homeless;

- I'm way more likely to die young;

- I'm way more likely to commit suicide;

- I'm way more likely to have to serve a much longer prison sentence for the same exact crime;

- I'm way more likely for the police to side against me in any kind of situation where they're summoned, even if under false pretenses;

- Half the population thinks I'm a potential kidnapper, rapist, pedophile & murderer, and as such, am immediately & automatically treated as all of those, denying me even a simple everyday conversation as a normal human being

- I'm that much less likely to graduate from high school, to go to college, or to get a degree, simply because of what I have between my legs;

- I have no say in whether or not I want my child to be aborted, or to be put up for adoption, or to raise it myself.



I could keep going on & on about how great it is to being a man, but I think I'll stop for now, thanks.

[Jean 103]

I don't think there is a one size fits all answer.

What do we know? Well they all have SOs and they wear women's clothes.

I would be willing to bet that when you get down to it, each one is different. Also I bet that few if any can answer the why question, other than because it feels good.

Don't you normally do things you like and avoid things you don't.

Your not trying to say that men and women think the same?

Women are closer to their feelings generally speaking.

The women I rent a room from told me she was hesitant on renting a room to a transgender person because they are so emotional .

Yes I am, it's the way I have always been.

Really the only question you should want answered is do they want to transition or live full time as a woman. They may not know, and/or the answer could change with time.

I know that this is something that you likely did not sign up for. I admire you for having the courage to work through this.

[mykell]

im not sure what you are asking from us, we who identify as CD, TG, NB, will surely have a prejudiced answer as most here dont identify as a CIS male, also when conducting social groups one is expected to receive a certain amount of discretion when they participate,


this part of the forum is open to the general public, but if you have permissions have at it, i think you may need to tweak what you expect from us. but ill take a stab at it.


What difference is there to someone's overall life as men or women?:

aside from medical treatments and hygiene, none, we all have our strengths and weaknesses.....our insecurities, our accomplishments.....our secret desires. we will all have faults as well as strengths.


How would the overall quality of life be different depending on what gender they are?:

this is the hard one....our gender at birth is determined by our genetics and by the parochial thinking of folks and views who migrated here from Europe, in the tribal structure that existed here before that we were cherished as people here and other parts of the world. third gender, two sprits, and other terms depending where you were from, as it stands today i hid my "self" from plain site with a societal expectation that gender conforming folks had. they don’t have the need or interest to understand for the most part as they believe they are normal and we have deviated from that “norm”.

when i venture out into the wilds as my true "self" i am subjected to sneers and crude comments from the ones who cant, wont, or believe they can take some time to educate themselves on things they dont understand. many who come here in the beginning and join in with like minded peeps to educate ourselves about our “self"s are doing so for the first time in they’re lives, we then must educate ourselves to not hate what we are after thinking we were somehow less than what society believes is the social norm. self loathing and shame are prominent feelings from those who share here for the first time.


thats about all have to say about that for now, hope it answered those questions….

[Meghan4now]

Mmmm, Some interesting answers. I feel that each gender has its own privileges and prohibitions. I suspect the question may arise from women trying to understand why men would adopt a woman's experience. If it is not for sensual reasons, then what? Unfortunately the current narrative suggests that a women's experience is repressed in all cases. But there are some real advantages to the female experience in our culture, mostly less tangible.

First both genders have unique group bonding experience s, each of which is really awesome. Secondly, our physical expressions can be quite different. Touch is my biggest language of love. Women can express that easier without being treated like a creep. But more agressively expressions are also more acceptable for men.

I think there are plenty of social reasons one might enjoy having a cross gender expression. I for one really like who I get to be in my female expression. Strangely it is partially a feeling of satisfaction in feeling like I'm part of that group identity.

[Jean 103]

Can you answer a couple of questions for me?

I didn’t catch that you are a moderator.

Don’t you read all this stuff? Don’t you know how different they all are?

Are you saying you can’t see that women’s and men’s lives are completely different?

Is this an on line group or do you meet face to face?

The TG support group that I attended is open to SOs. Actually it is open to anyone. You could just ask your question there.

I’ll give you a simple example.

Women hug,

Most all my friends are GGs. I have been accepted into their group. Still I always let them make the first move.

My close guy friends also treat me as a women and hug me.

This didn’t happen to me as a guy. Ok it has happened a few times, what can I say people like me, still it's not the same.

I have been living as a women for about three years now. This is a statement I would only make here to show where I’m at with all this. I would never say this to any of my friends as I feel it would be insulting.

[Sallee]

great answer to the question much truth in it I think

[Melissa in SE Tn]

I’m with Kim. Surely there are more profound questions that SO’s of a cd social club can pose? In the alternative, it’s great that cd wives get together to draw support from each other.

[Violetgray]

My goodness, this really seems to have touched a nerve for some people! A bit of defensiveness as far as what it means to be male!

Still, if I had to illustrate what I think is a major difference in how women and men exist:

It wasn't until I was walking home alone as Violet and had a stranger follow me and try to push his way into my house that I really started to reexamine what it meant to exist in the world as male or female.

Women generally exist in a world where half the population is stronger than them. There exists a level of danger just to daily life that say, I never had to think about walking about as male.

Sure, the world is plenty dangerous for men too but I would say that danger exists in a woman's life in a way that isn't necessarily true for men.

[Rhonda Jean]

Char,
If I understand what they're getting at, this is more of a question for the TS section. It's there that it's said that it's not about the clothes.

To me, it's not just about the clothes, but it's the clothes (hair, makeup, overall appearance) that allows me to interact with people as a woman, to go places and do things that a man typically wouldn't. If it was completely not about the clothes (and I believe there are those for which it is not), then one could transition invisibly.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Violet;

I think you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. In society Men are generally predator and women prey ( I shudder at some of the things that have been written in the news about how women fall victim to men, Today's Lyft story actually made me cry )

I've lived and worked in and around Baltimore for many years and the city can certainly be a hostile to single women. Be safe when you are out and about. Don't get me wrong I do love Baltimore it does have its charms.

[JulesLynne]

Male privilege isn’t what it used to be. I’m the father of 2 boys and increasingly concerned about their educational opportunities. Their school has copious “girl power” posters. Girls are encouraged to get into STEM. There’s a ton of female mentoring programs - doctors, scientists, pilots, etc. There’s not a single equivalent program for boys. If my son wore a “boy power” T-shirt to school he’d be suspended. And every single one of my coworkers - men, women, black, white, Asian, and anything in between - have all recognized that their sons are having a much more difficult time getting into college than their daughters, even with the same grades, SAT scores, and extracurricular activities.

How many of us have ever hired a male babysitter or nanny? How many of us have ever hired a female plumber or roofer? How many people talk to their daughters about going into a trade school instead of college?

My point in all of this is that 30 or 40 years ago, our culture was different and society assumed that men would all enter the workforce and women would mostly enter the home. We did a great job in opening up opportunities for women, but I think the pendulum has swung a little bit too far in the opposite direction to the point that we collectively assume that the male advantage that we had 30 years ago still applies to our 6 year old kids. It doesn’t.

[Sherrii]

After reading all the posts so far I have to say about the "male privilege" thing, it may be there but then there is the list of things that ellbee brings up. And if you think about it there are a few things that could go on a "female privilege" list. If you want to understand how and why things are the way they are and about the differences between men and woman find a copy of The Naked Ape by Desmond Morris. Some folks don't think he has it right but over maybe some 40 years since I read the book a lot of it has seemed accurate to me when I think of the way males and females act and what they are looking for in life. Sherrii

[phili]

Char,
Can you share here your women's group's ideas about those two questions?

Here is the counterquestion I would pose to your group:
I am a crossdresser,which by definition means I see clothes as a critical element- doorway to a set of experiences that I want and that seemed to be reserved for women, generally. That can validly be criticized- since for every item I might cite- like being able to cry in sympathy- one could point out that men can do that. Every item about being a person can be shared by men or women in certain settings, at least, and once we escape childhood training. Women can be brave firefighters or sadistic prison guards, and men can be emotionally sensitive, and excellent caregivers, or dependent and compliant partners.

Interestingly, despite this fact being obvious- people are generally much more upset if a man wants to wear clothing designated for and designed for women, than if his behavior falls into what is customarily thought of as typical of women.

Where do each of your friends draw the line for acceptable roles and behavior , and dress, of men and women?

I think the answer to this goes directly to why, even though we understand that men and women are fundamentally equal in every respect- we separate them and treat and train them differently- and then have some baseline rules- like men are not allowed to wear women's clothing.

What difference is there to someone's overall life as men or women?
How would the overall quality of life be different depending on what gender they are?

[char GG]

First, I would like to thank all of you who have replied. Obviously a lot of thought has gone into what each and every one of you have to say. The answers have gone deep into the inner workings of the male/female mind.

@Phili: The women in the group are SO's to CDers that belong to the social group, therefore, these ladies have a level of acceptance that some CDers do not have with non-accepting SO's. Also, the group is really just a fun, social group. There is no one who claims to be professional enough to deal with deep seated gender issues. To answer your question, from what I can tell, the SO's are trying to understand is the difference between "day to day" goings on between men and women. For the sake of simplicity; both wake up, eat breakfast, get ready for their day (work, school, hobbies, work out, read, relax), buy groceries, eat lunch, more of the same afternoon activities, have dinner, upkeep on the place they live (cleaning, laundry), then many choose an evening activity which may include doing nothing more than TV or going out for a night on the town. Finally, there is sleep. So without the obvious differences in experiences regarding how males and females were raised, they wonder what difference the clothes make. One thing we do all agree on, clothes are the spice of life.

[Teresa]

Char,
I posted a reply to a smilar question a while ago .

On a daily basis there is very little difference , job sharing , single parents famillies are all in the mix etc., gender is not even considered . Before I separated I did all the cooking , most of the cleaning , washing , ironing etc ., my wife was out earning to supplement our income . Now I live alone and dress full time not much has changed apart from I'm doing it as Teresa , my gender may appear different but the jobs haven't changed .Truthfully I'm happier as Teresa , the choice of clothes to wear is much greater , that doesn't make a difference to how I do the jobs but I feel more comfortable and content wearing them .

[ClosetED]

Many good comments in the thread. Thank you Char for helping other wives understand.
As genetic males, we can not truly know what it feels like to be a female, but we know what we see happening in the society around us to those who appear female as opposed to those who appear male.
Phili makes a nice point about men who act very effeminate but dress as men and those men who dress and use other items normally associate with women. Society treats those very differently. If you want labels - effeminate homosexuals vs crossdressers.
And the question does not need to be asked of transexuals, the crossdressers who are able to live 24/7 may have the most relevant experience of how society treats them when internally they still consider themselves male.

Thoughts to bring back to them - as GGs who see how men are treated. Ellbee brings out several good statistics and situations in which males and females are treated differently. How do they greet men vs women? Do they shake men's hands and hug or peck a female? Why do they treat them differently? Because that is what we were shown to do, in most cultures. How often do they hear men compliment other men on their looks/clothes compared to women? Is it appropriate that there is the belief that women are judged more on looks than skills- no! But that is the belief and crossdressers may want to experience some of that.

If we try to imagine moving to a land where men and women were treated and could act exactly equally, I don't know if we would know how to act. How would the wives feel if all others began to treat them as men, including loss of the choice of clothes and social interactions.
Just some additional thoughts,
Hugs, Ellen

[Micki_Finn]

Kelly, I am talking in a broad sense. For instance "victim blaming" in rape cases. You always hear things like "She was dressed provocatively", like that somehow excuses the rapist.

Along those same lines, unwanted pregnancy. Why are women told to keep their legs shut if they don't want children, but us men are never told to keep it in our pants?

There’s also the fact that women still make less then men on the whole? Or the “pink tax” on women’s products? Or just the fact that men can leave the house without making sure they took appropriate anti-rape measures? If you don’t think it’s a priveldge to walk down the street and not worry about being assaulted, then you REALLY need to look into women’s experiences more.

[Seana Summer]

I think it been well covered but I would like to reinforce some of what Violet said. As a male, who is larger than average, I can walk around, even many places in Baltimore, by myself, and be left alone. There are times I wish I were 4 to 6 inches shorter and 80 lbs lighter. (I could by cloths anywhere!) But it has probably saved my butt many times I don't even know about because I look like someone to avoid on a dark street. I have noticed people crossing the street to avoid me at night. May not be completely a function of being male but it is a portion of it.

Ellbee's comments above concerning children. I agree and this is a big deal. Fathers do not enjoy the same rights as Mothers even though Fathers are increasing taking more and more responsibility. It is becoming more common for custody in divorces to be split 50/50 but certainly not in all cases. Another example: I would have loved to take parental leave when my children were born to keep them home from daycare for another 6 weeks while my wife went back to work. Reality is, men are punished for taking parental leave in many work places, even if your supervisor is a "progressive women". Yes you can document what happened, but them you fight the fight that you probably won't win anyway.

Just too many issues to vent on. Much progress has been made ....Much Still Needed........from all sides