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Thread: What is a Transsexual???

  1. #51
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaTwelve200 View Post
    Well, if there are conflicting meanings floating about, Take the "Scientific Paper" approach----Always DEFINE what YOU mean by "Transsexual" at the beginning of the conversation or posting.----
    With respect, that is not "scientific". Scientific method holds that to be valid, results must be repeatable. Consensus, formed by independent validation of an hypothesis results in a unified lexicon for describing the results. Working the same hypothesis, using the same methodology, and assigning different terms to the findings would be nonsense. Once that consensus has taken shape, it is only changed through the same method that created it, but using a new approach; a more refined hypothesis, better instrumentation, larger sample, etc.

    Lea, pulling together out-of-context quotes from one government's regulatory language hardly gets us any closer to consensus. As Amelie points out, the general public (lawmakers, in this case) has a poor grasp on things. On the other hand, citing the WPATH document is useful. In what might be argued as the most applicable chapter for our purposes (the one on epidemiological considerations), we see the term "transsexual" used for the first time without being lumped in with "...transgender and gender non-conforming individuals". To wit...
    "For various reasons, researchers who have studied incidence and prevalence have tended to focus
    on the most easily counted subgroup of gender-nonconforming individuals: transsexual individuals
    who experience gender dysphoria and who present for gender-transition-related care at specialist
    gender clinics (Zucker & Lawrence, 2009)"


    Yet again, we see that those with recognized expertise in the areas of diagnosing and treating the condition agree on the term and it's definition. Any professional in the field could expect ridicule for insisting, with neither supporting rationale nor proof, that "transsexual" means something else should expect ridicule, at least.
    Well, somebody has to make up that base of the bell curve that defines "normal".
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  2. #52
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    Language evolves. Especially in an area as lightly studied as transgenderism. WPATH’s guidelines have evolved, as has the APA via the DSM. Up until a very few years ago some of those influencing terms, criteria and guidelines were transphobic gatekeepers themselves ala Blanchard.

    In some cases the supposed experts and clinicians are playing catch-up to how trans people identify themselves. For some many years, a certain narrative was required to obtain medical transition services, and vestiges of that remain. Add in societal stigma that varies depending on what kind of trans person you are, an unfavorable national political climate in the US, highly specific medical criteria in the UK for the government to recognize one’s gender and you have a highly favorable environment for people to misrepresent how they really identify.

    Transsexual is a dated term. In some uses it alludes to the misplaced eliteism of those that self define as having harry benjamin syndrome. The hope for some universal, objective definition of the term “transsexual” is a bit quixotic. But hey, self ID however you want, you do you boo.

  3. #53
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    Kelly, I hardly think the UK Equality Commission’s commentary is irrelevant! First off, the commission’s site distinguishes the regulatory language from more up-to-date as well as casual usage. Second, it’s one illustration of my points on context and risk (others defining us). The UK is a good beginning point because the national structure is relatively complete, tying together aspects of identity and legality including social treatment, documents and naming, NHS policy, etc. Very unlike the scattershot approaches in the US. I don’t give the example as any kind of affirmation of my views - there are several elements with which I disagree. In any event, the WPATH cite you used actually aligns with the UK Commission’s view. I don’t understand your objection.

    I expressed my opinion earlier, not my view of a consensus. There IS no consensus on the term in the US. I could argue some aspects of continuity in the term through (again) the DSM history and commentary as well as the history of the gender clinics and, to a lesser extent, clinical practice. But that, too, was one of my points, that the meaning depends on context, even in “official” contexts. Or, if you like, that the same descriptors, symptoms, factors, and other such criteria can apply to different mutually-exclusive terms, which is much the same thing. A terrific example of this was the uproar over Gender Dysphoria vs Fetishistic Transvestism in the DSM 5. The Gender Dysphoria diagnosis, of course, IS the latest version of what WAS transsexualism in earlier editions. The new Fetishistic Transvestism diagnosis which uses many of the same criteria, thanks to the Paraphilias subcommittee chair (Ray Blanchard) now stigmatizes any crossdresser who happens to fit. Strictly speaking, neither of these are definitions. But even if they were, would it matter outside of a psych context - one, moreover, that uses the DSM? Nope.

    You appear to be arguing that there are consensus definitions. If so, I wish you would clearly state what you think they are (or at least for “transsexual”). I actually think there is something like a prevalent cultural view, but not a consensus on terminology that is common among the medical, psychological, legal, scientific, sociological, and religious spheres. Nor do I think discussions like this will drive to a common, agreed set of definitions. Personally I’m fine with contextual meaning.
    Last edited by LeaP; 05-21-2019 at 12:38 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  4. #54
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post
    You appear to be arguing that there are consensus definitions. If so, I wish you would clearly state what you think they are (or at least for “transsexual”). I actually think there is something like a prevalent cultural view, but not a consensus on terminology that is common among the medical, psychological, legal, scientific, sociological, and religious spheres. Nor do I think discussions like this will drive to a common, agreed set of definitions. Personally I’m fine with contextual meaning.
    I am and there are. The DSM, WPATH, and ICD10 all use the same definition, not word for word, but none of them say anything about your arbitrary requirements. Yes, language evolves, but the lexicon used by the academic and professional community does not change as a result of someone's opinion. Again, your opinion is at odds with that consensus. Insisting that you are "entitled to your opinion" does not change that fact.

    Would someone please explain to me this need to ignore the obvious and redefine terms according to their own needs? I thought that we were past this "not trans enough" bullsh**t.
    Last edited by Aunt Kelly; 05-20-2019 at 06:56 AM.
    Well, somebody has to make up that base of the bell curve that defines "normal".
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  5. #55
    Resident Polymath MarinaTwelve200's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Aunt Kelly;4363037]With respect, that is not "scientific". Scientific method holds that to be valid, results must be repeatable. Consensus, formed by independent validation of an hypothesis results in a unified lexicon for describing the results. Working the same hypothesis, using the same methodology, and assigning different terms to the findings would be nonsense. Once that consensus has taken shape, it is only changed through the same method that created it, but using a new approach; a more refined hypothesis, better instrumentation, larger sample, etc.

    "the Scientific Paper" Approach I mention is not meant to be "Scientific"---it is a STYLE----Were terms are defined as per the author, so the reader KNOWS what aspects the writer or speaker is talking about--in terms of the Author's interpretation.--For just the reasons you cite, New information, changes in terminology over time, Different interpretations, etc. Thus the Definition is "Locked" for the purposes of the given discussion. Those who do NOT define their terms, especially in such a "fluid" subject matter, often will not be understood and their points being lost to confusion. It is a poor technique to write such Papers without defining the terminology used, and also suggests a lack of expertise or laziness on the part of the writer

  6. #56
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    Give the definition, please.
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  7. #57
    Ah-May-Lee Amelie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    sounds like you've been to Lee's Mardi Gras....
    Yes I've been there quite a lot. I sort of got to know Lee Brewster. Two people I know worked there, Miss Shannon and Robbie. I didn't need to go there but I had great respect for Lee and all he done for civil rights. More to the point of knowing the area around Lee's, I would go there quite often at night to roam the streets and sometimes go to the Vault club, sort of across from Lee's. At night the area came alive with transsexual street walkers, some fairly rough/dangerous girls too.


    This next part is not a response to you Kaitlyn.
    I know I don't make a point by using big words and meaningful dialogue. But as I said, the transsexuals knew who they were by walking in an area for them and born girls kept away from the area. While there isn't a scientific response it does show that the transsexual girls knew who each other were by staying together. They knew they were transsexuals without the science manuals. I would take a good guess that transsexual girls from Brazil know what they are without scientific studies. I am not putting down studies and such, it is good reading, much I don't understand. I guess it's like art, I can't tell what a transsexual is but I know one when I see one, if that makes sense.

    I have a good understanding what it is to be trans and have many years experience, what I don't have is an educated brain to write researched words with deep meanings.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amelie View Post

    I have a good understanding what it is to be trans and have many years experience, what I don't have is an educated brain to write researched words with deep meanings.
    Your life and street experience are valid, and more useful than some of the social science rambling. When you’re bored, google the journal of cogent social sciences and the conceptual penis as a social construct.

  9. #59
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MarinaTwelve200;4363082]
    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Kelly View Post
    It is a poor technique to write such Papers without defining the terminology used, and also suggests a lack of expertise or laziness on the part of the writer
    If we were talking about formal papers, your argument might have a shred of relevance. We're not. We're talking about some members here defending their "you're not trans enough" condescension by trying to redefine accepted terms.
    Well, somebody has to make up that base of the bell curve that defines "normal".
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  10. #60
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Gender is the single most important organizing principle for any living creature.
    Messing with that is messy

    We are in the very early days of working all this out. It’s not helpful to us today to have difficulty coming to terms with agreed terms. Too much baggage too much pushback. Not enough research. Not enough long tail experience Just not enough for us.

    The defined terms are very useful for many reasons. Communication medical political. They can help us “come out”. And explain to people what this is. Most helpful is framing it in terms of gender dysphoria which is a kind of existential suffering I would not wish on anybody. The definition is helpful in codifying it. People can hear us but they can’t internalize. It makes no sense to them. The defined terms have gravitas that can be internalized.

    From there we can all say what is our opinion. And it’s pretty easy to understand that we are sharing our opinion which hopefully come from experience. And opinion is different than definitions. I think the OP what she was looking for was opinions.

    W all experience gender dysphoria differently. I had no feeling about my parts. I felt like it was a fantasy. I didn’t “know” I was a woman. The definition of TS at the time was very unhelpful to me. It was confusing and it hurt I wished I was TS. It was when I experienced other people that had understood that helped me. Hearing their stories. Comparing to my experience. I learned so much. It was a like a key to a locked door. A locked door that could be thought of as having abig bold definition that kept me out.

    So I guess I’m saying that even tho this is a messy conversation. And I kind of have a negative view of it that maybe it’s actually helpful. And that we can talk it out on the basis of experience which leads to having an opinion. And sharing that expressed the diversity of our GD. And at the same time recognize that the definition as expressed in the medical lit is pretty helpful.
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  11. #61
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    Kaitlyn, an excellent summation.
    I am older than I once was,
    And younger than I'll be. ...
    After changes upon changes
    We are more or less the same;
    After changes we are more or less the same.

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