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  1. #1
    Member Paula DAngelo's Avatar
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    What is a Transsexual???

    In the "Male to Female Crossdressing" sub forum a member made a statement about what it takes to be considered a transsexual. This statement while phrased as an opinion went against the forum definition, could be taken as insulting, and by its very nature would erase a multitude of people from being considered transsexual. was being made by some one whose very statement would mean that what it takes to be transsexual was being defined by a non-transsexual. When called out on their statement they defended it by saying something along the lines of I'm out all the time and talk and interact with Transsexual people all the time and this is a common feeling in the area in which they live.

    Maybe I'm wrong in what I think the transsexual community believes and this member is correct, so I'm asking for any members that consider themselves transsexual, what does it take to be considered transsexual (I'm not asking for a text book type definition, I'm asking for your opinion).

    Are Pre-op people transsexual?
    Are Non-op people transsexual?
    Is Post-op required to be transsexual?

    What do you feel is required to be considered transsexual?

  2. #2
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    This is just my unpopular opinion and is based on only my (and my CIS friends) opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paula DAngelo View Post
    Are Pre-op people transsexual?
    If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government idís....yes they are TS

    Quote Originally Posted by Paula DAngelo View Post
    Are Non-op people transsexual?
    Same as above but to repeat....If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government Idís.... yes they are TS


    Quote Originally Posted by Paula DAngelo View Post
    Is Post-op required to be transsexual?
    No


    So that may bring you to ask what do i call a post op?

    Wait for it....

    A man or a woman, depending on their sex....

  3. #3
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    This is just my unpopular opinion and is based on only my (and my CIS friends) opinions.



    If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government idís....yes they are TS



    Same as above but to repeat....If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government Idís.... yes they are TS




    No


    So that may bring you to ask what do i call a post op?

    Wait for it....

    A man or a woman, depending on their sex....
    This would seem to imply that transgender is a choice, as one canít be transgender without taking positive action. I would say that people are born trans. So for example, a child facing puberty realizes their birth gender doesnít really match. What you are saying is that this child isnít trans until after theyíve started living as a girl and changed their name? Then what were they before? Did we MAKE them trans by allowing them to live as the opposite gender?

  4. #4
    Gold Member Lana Mae's Avatar
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    A lot has to do with mind set! Dressed 24/7 but for whatever reasons can not afford or get on Ht or have the surgeries! Can not change ID's for whatever reason! Frustrating as Hell! But...if the mind set is there then are they or not? I believe if all attempts have failed and they have really tried and they believe, then they are! Just my opinion for what it is worth! Hugs Lana Mae
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Devi SM's Avatar
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    I agree with Kat.
    I think some people ignores, forget the struggles most of us have in our lives swimming against the moral established parameters or rules and looking for answers come here looking support, answers, acceptance but sometimes just receive just rejection like it were a contest a iut who knows more or who can really be a trans.
    I personally believe that for some people the dysphoria is bigger that push them to look for an exit or solution. I know that some trans never experienced dysphoria (which is weird for me) and for them everything has been easy and finally as I said, there's not enough research to give es a diagnostic on the reasons but for me gender dysphoria is a common symptom on all of us.
    If a health professional has ever felt, can't understand it to develop a definition and just trans peoe could do it but we all are so subjective to understand the others reasons.
    My finale call is to believe what others say and just love them. Time will show who is who.
    My humble opinion.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paula DAngelo View Post
    In the "Male to Female Crossdressing" sub forum a member made a statement about what it takes to be considered a transsexual. This statement while phrased as an opinion went against the forum definition, could be taken as insulting, and by its very nature would erase a multitude of people from being considered transsexual...

    ...What do you feel is required to be considered transsexual?
    Paula,
    Opinions absolutely do not serve us when answering the question "What is a transsexual?", so why ask for them? This is not about "feelings". The goal should be to arm the person asking the question with an authoritative response, so that he or she may then participate in informed discourse using an agreed upon lexicon so that there is no confusion or ambiguity.

    The definition of the term "transsexual" is unambiguous. Please see:



    While they all word it slightly differently, the "Clinical Information" section of the 2019 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code F64.0 is the most straightforward:
    "Severe gender dysphoria, coupled with a persistent desire for the physical characteristics and social roles that connote the opposite biological sex.

    To wit, the definition is not a matter of opinion. It is the presence of gender dysphoria that defines the condition. There is no mention of any surgical procedure, or lack thereof, other than to note them as possible treatments for gender dysphoria.

    I am TS because I have severe gender dysphoria. I resent the ill-informed suggestion that I am not, because of what treatment I have, or have not, had. I have friends whom I'm sure would bristle at the suggestion that their non-op status made them something less-than. That kind of comment is extremely insensitive. Period. Defending such an insult as "just my opinion" makes it no less so.

    Myra,
    If you try to suggest that a different definition is defensible because it's "my opinion", prepare to be berated. No, not for having an opinion, but for suggesting that a falsehood is fact because you "have a right to your opinion."

    To Theresa,
    I accept your apology.

    AllieSF has put it most succinctly...
    People can define themselves anyway they want, but to be accurate, to be consistent, to be in tune with current medical and community thinking, please follow the site's definitions of TS. On this there should be no debate.
    (emphasis mine)
    Well, somebody has to make up that base of the bell curve that defines "normal".
    https://groups.io/g/gno-houston

  7. #7
    Member Mirya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Kelly View Post
    The definition of the term "transsexual" is unambiguous. Please see:
    I disagree. The definition is actually very ambiguous, and probably intentionally so. Much of it is open to interpretation (i.e. open to opinions!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Kelly View Post
    While they all word it slightly differently, the "Clinical Information" section of the 2019 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code F64.0 is the most straightforward:
    "Severe gender dysphoria, coupled with a persistent desire for the physical characteristics and social roles that connote the opposite biological sex.
    I don't think that definition is straightforward at all. What exactly are female "physical characteristics'? How many "physical characteristics" are needed to qualify? Is it enough to have breasts? Long hair? Or both? Or more? It's so ambiguous! And what exactly are "social roles"? Again, the wording is vague, and open to interpretation.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirya View Post
    I don't think that definition is straightforward at all. What exactly are female "physical characteristics'? How many "physical characteristics" are needed to qualify? Is it enough to have breasts? Long hair? Or both? Or more? It's so ambiguous! And what exactly are "social roles"? Again, the wording is vague, and open to interpretation.
    Wow... That is perhaps the most tortured rationale I have ever read on this forum. You have gone to extraordinary lengths in your attempt to defend an untenable position.

    Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that the set of physical characteristics which are uniquely female, you know, the ones that are discussed constantly in this part of the forum, is an ambiguous list? How dare you even suggest that those things that so many of us will move heaven and earth to acquire (or rid ourselves of), through years of painful, dangerous and expensive medical treatment, are so insignificant that they can be equated with ...long hair. Oh... my... gawd. Really? Such a position is stunning in it's deliberate ignorance of plainly available evidence, in the literature and right here in this section and the other TS sections.

    Frankly, I remain baffled by this need to ambiguate (yes, that's really a word) things which are patently unambiguous. Why is it that some insist that it is OK to state that black is white, or that water is dry, as long as it is qualified as "my opinion"?
    Well, somebody has to make up that base of the bell curve that defines "normal".
    https://groups.io/g/gno-houston

  9. #9
    Member Mirya's Avatar
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    I’m not really interested in having a discussion with someone who is going to keep resorting to personal attacks and hyperbole. I’ve stated my interpretation of the definition as a TS woman who has had HRT, FFS, SRS, and BA. Your definition is just as valid as mine too, if that’s how you see things based on your experience.

  10. #10
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    "Your definition is just as valid as mine too, if that’s how you see things based on your experience."

    Her definition, as well as mine, as well as this site's, as well as the TS community with some minor exceptions, as well as the vast medical community are all the same. Yes, you have a right to your opinion, even though it is totally wrong with no more back up defense than "this is my opinion". Provide some medical, scholarly, majority information that your opinion is even close to being valid. You continue to refuse to do that. You also refuse to state where you are in the Transgender Spectrum as defined by this site. That could help better understand where you are coming from. You may like to debate on your terms, but when you open up a big can of worms in this section, please defend with data your invalid opinion as to what is a transsexual.

    April,

    "Those were the days!" Yes, we were there, me as a bystander, and unbeknownst to me a future member, and you as an active member. There is a trans community, which is an interesting place to be. Kind of like being a member of the human race with all its varieties and pretty colors. I love it.

  11. #11
    Member KatrinaK's Avatar
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    I think you should all read "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serrano

    https://www.amazon.com/Whipping-Girl.../dp/1580056229

    XO,
    Kat

  12. #12
    Member Sara Olivia's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Kaitlyn Michelle
    Saying your transsexuality disappears seems like a political statement.
    I respectfully disagree. How others identify me is up to them. That I self identify as a woman, and always have, is my right just as it is your right to identify as a transgender woman if that is how you feel. I don't care for labels, or more accurately - I don't like people being labelled. I am not a political person, I live my own life and keep my opinions to myself with the exception that I sometimes share them on this forum when a topic is of interest to me and I have an opinion to share. So when I share with this forum that I personally do not self identify as a transgender woman but as a woman, then I am sharing an opinion and not making a political statement.
    Last edited by Sara Olivia; 05-16-2019 at 09:15 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    I did not say that, nor do I believe that there is nothing left to discuss, but I still insist that your "opinion" that the term means something other than that meaning upon which reasonable people agree, is counterproductive nonsense; insensitive and hurtful counterproductive nonsense.
    Well, somebody has to make up that base of the bell curve that defines "normal".
    https://groups.io/g/gno-houston

  14. #14
    Senior Member Devi SM's Avatar
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    I honestly think that a definition about transexual or trasge de by scientists, doctors, psiquiatrist or any other health professional that is not a trans is not enough accurate.
    I was a year in therapy with a family therapist and I learn a lot as well she learned for me.
    Now my therapist is a trasgender and his support and knowledge is overwhelming. He knows more to approach a therapy and treatment from his own personal experiences than the all knowledge he has as a PhD on sicology.
    At the beginning I went to therapy looking for answers, I never receive them. She help me a lot to find my own answers and definitions, so I think first, if you're not in transition and under HRT your experiences definitions are very subjective, so what I do is read the most, talk, ask and then compare with my own experience to I arrive to my own conclusions.
    Last edited by Devi SM; 05-08-2019 at 04:34 PM.
    See my daily posts and pics on tumblr, just look for @sexyvane,
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  15. #15
    Member KatrinaK's Avatar
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    I was going to skip responding to this, but I decided to weigh in. I'm not joining the argument, but rather I'm going to tell you a short story.

    When I first decided to transition, I posted it here in this exact subsection of cd.com. What was supposed to be one of the most affirming moments of my life, devolved immediately into a semantic argument about the definition of TG label words, led largely by certain person(s) not coincidentally on this thread (don't bother or asking or looking, it was deleted by the mods at my request and I will not single anyone out for the same reason I'm writing this post. They know who they are, or they do this sort of thing so often that they don't remember. Either way, it doesn't matter)

    There was no support. There was no love. There was no congratulations. There was only a brutal picking apart of the words that I used to describe the most affirming moment of my life.

    I was mortified. So much so that I actually decided to leave the forum and spend my time elsewhere where that sort of thing doesn't happen.

    Today, I decided to come back to see how everyone was doing. This was one of the first threads I found.

    So for everyone reading this, let me leave you with this. This "dialogue" is a complete waste of time. These arguments as to "who qualifies as what" do serious damage to people who are at their most emotionally fragile, and at their most vulnerable. I know it did to me, so much so that I took all my transition related conversations elsewhere.

    Ciao Bellas,
    Kat
    Last edited by KatrinaK; 05-09-2019 at 08:46 PM.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Thank you for weighing in, Katrina. It is exactly the kind of contention that you describe that seems to arise every time the "labels" debate appears. What label we choose to assign, or reject, for ourselves should not be a matter of contention. The contention only arises when someone seeks to ignore convention and redefine the labels. Without that convention, a common, agreed-upon lexicon, misunderstanding is inevitable.

    I am TS, according to that conventional definition. I chose that label because it fits. More importantly, it allows me to describe my gender identity in a single word. It is neither more nor less accurate because of the steps I have been able to take to express that identity because this or that form of expression is not part of the conventional definition. Ergo, it is insensitive, to say the least, for someone to insist that the label does not fit because, in their "opinion", other requirements apply.
    Again, thank you for providing perspective based on your unfortunate experience.

  17. #17
    Resident Polymath MarinaTwelve200's Avatar
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    Well, if there are conflicting meanings floating about, Take the "Scientific Paper" approach----Always DEFINE what YOU mean by "Transsexual" at the beginning of the conversation or posting.----That way the participants are ALL "on the same page", so to speak and can have a productive discussion. Nothing but misunderstandings and confusion ensue when different persons use a different definition of terms---and fail to tell the others involved. I have seen the term "Transsexual" used for BOTH pre and post op persons with Gender dysphoria ----

  18. #18
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    Eh, most scientific and research papers use the term “transsexual” without defining it. In my reading experience, though, the context is usually post-ops and/or individuals on cross-sex hormones.

    Here’s some interesting cites from the UK’s Equality and Human Rights Commission (cites are from https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...scrimination):

    In 2016 a Women and Equalities Committee report ... [recommended] ... that the use of the terms ‘gender reassignment’ and ‘transsexual’ in the Equality Act 2010 are outdated and misleading ...
    I made the point about the dated nature of “transsexual” in an earlier response. I’ll add here to state directly that this is part of the problem. The UK commission regards “trans” as the better term, but personally, I don’t find it much better. (Though I use it myself.)

    In the comments on Gender Reassignment Discrimination, the following clarifications are made (emphases mine):

    The Equality Act 2010 says that you must not be discriminated against because you are transsexual, when your gender identity is different from the gender assigned to you when you were born.
    [note - it’s important to understand that the context here is BINARY gender. The site makes this clarification elsewhere.]

    FURTHER, that:

    All transsexual people share the common characteristic of gender reassignment.
    ... But not as a fait accompli:

    To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender.
    ! So what does this all mean? One final clarification nails it:

    The Equality Act says that you must not be discriminated against because:

    of your gender reassignment as a transsexual. You may prefer the description transgender person or trans male or female. A wide range of people are included in the terms ‘trans’ or ‘transgender’ but you are not protected as transgender unless you propose to change your gender or have done so.
    All very interesting. Clarifying, too. That is, as long as you are a UK citizen and need to deal with a legally covered discrimination issue and, by the way, have a Gender Recognition Certificate (certified transsexuals!). You’re SOL anywhere else or in other circumstances.

    If I get around to it, I’ll parse through the WPATH’s interesting distinctions between transsexuals vs transgender and gender non-conforming people. It’s a tortured read. Here’s a hint, though: All three terms are used together (i.e., as a sort of umbrella class) in the current care standard over 100 times. Transsexual is used alone in only a handful of cases.

    There’s an interesting thread of terminology history through the revisions of the DSM, too, particularly if you read through the accompanying notes and not just the diagnoses criteria.
    Last edited by LeaP; 05-18-2019 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Added a clarification on gender identity
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  19. #19
    Ah-May-Lee
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    From reading the responses one can see why the general public has difficulty understanding gender issues.

    I'm kinda glad I live alone and away from other trans people. Don't have to worry what to call myself.

    But it is interesting reading the responses.

    As for the question. Who is a transsexual. In my day the transsexual was the ones walking the streets in the meat packing district and the born girls were walking the streets a few blocks north.
    Last edited by Amelie; 05-19-2019 at 06:22 AM.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaTwelve200 View Post
    Well, if there are conflicting meanings floating about, Take the "Scientific Paper" approach----Always DEFINE what YOU mean by "Transsexual" at the beginning of the conversation or posting.----
    With respect, that is not "scientific". Scientific method holds that to be valid, results must be repeatable. Consensus, formed by independent validation of an hypothesis results in a unified lexicon for describing the results. Working the same hypothesis, using the same methodology, and assigning different terms to the findings would be nonsense. Once that consensus has taken shape, it is only changed through the same method that created it, but using a new approach; a more refined hypothesis, better instrumentation, larger sample, etc.

    Lea, pulling together out-of-context quotes from one government's regulatory language hardly gets us any closer to consensus. As Amelie points out, the general public (lawmakers, in this case) has a poor grasp on things. On the other hand, citing the WPATH document is useful. In what might be argued as the most applicable chapter for our purposes (the one on epidemiological considerations), we see the term "transsexual" used for the first time without being lumped in with "...transgender and gender non-conforming individuals". To wit...
    "For various reasons, researchers who have studied incidence and prevalence have tended to focus
    on the most easily counted subgroup of gender-nonconforming individuals: transsexual individuals
    who experience gender dysphoria and who present for gender-transition-related care at specialist
    gender clinics (Zucker & Lawrence, 2009)"


    Yet again, we see that those with recognized expertise in the areas of diagnosing and treating the condition agree on the term and it's definition. Any professional in the field could expect ridicule for insisting, with neither supporting rationale nor proof, that "transsexual" means something else should expect ridicule, at least.
    Well, somebody has to make up that base of the bell curve that defines "normal".
    https://groups.io/g/gno-houston

  21. #21
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    Language evolves. Especially in an area as lightly studied as transgenderism. WPATH’s guidelines have evolved, as has the APA via the DSM. Up until a very few years ago some of those influencing terms, criteria and guidelines were transphobic gatekeepers themselves ala Blanchard.

    In some cases the supposed experts and clinicians are playing catch-up to how trans people identify themselves. For some many years, a certain narrative was required to obtain medical transition services, and vestiges of that remain. Add in societal stigma that varies depending on what kind of trans person you are, an unfavorable national political climate in the US, highly specific medical criteria in the UK for the government to recognize one’s gender and you have a highly favorable environment for people to misrepresent how they really identify.

    Transsexual is a dated term. In some uses it alludes to the misplaced eliteism of those that self define as having harry benjamin syndrome. The hope for some universal, objective definition of the term “transsexual” is a bit quixotic. But hey, self ID however you want, you do you boo.

  22. #22
    Resident Polymath MarinaTwelve200's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Aunt Kelly;4363037]With respect, that is not "scientific". Scientific method holds that to be valid, results must be repeatable. Consensus, formed by independent validation of an hypothesis results in a unified lexicon for describing the results. Working the same hypothesis, using the same methodology, and assigning different terms to the findings would be nonsense. Once that consensus has taken shape, it is only changed through the same method that created it, but using a new approach; a more refined hypothesis, better instrumentation, larger sample, etc.

    "the Scientific Paper" Approach I mention is not meant to be "Scientific"---it is a STYLE----Were terms are defined as per the author, so the reader KNOWS what aspects the writer or speaker is talking about--in terms of the Author's interpretation.--For just the reasons you cite, New information, changes in terminology over time, Different interpretations, etc. Thus the Definition is "Locked" for the purposes of the given discussion. Those who do NOT define their terms, especially in such a "fluid" subject matter, often will not be understood and their points being lost to confusion. It is a poor technique to write such Papers without defining the terminology used, and also suggests a lack of expertise or laziness on the part of the writer

  23. #23
    Aspiring Member Eemz's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting Kat. I did notice you disappear but I didn't know why and I really wanted to hear how things are going. I only opened this thread today to see what you had to say, and will be closing it again now. These threads at best are boring and annoying and at worst are just a bunch of people trying to "win" at all costs. The ..anatomy.. measuring that goes on always strikes me as ironic in a trans site.

    > There was no support. There was no love. There was no congratulations

    There's lots and lots of it here for you I'm really sorry it got swamped by nonsense.
    Last edited by Eemz; 05-10-2019 at 06:50 AM.

  24. #24
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    " I know it did to me, so much so that I took all my transition related conversations elsewhere. "

    HEAR, HEAR ^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^

  25. #25
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    “Transsexual” - A person with cross-sexed identity who takes concrete, permanent, physical steps to bring their body in line. Hormones, FFS, SRS, Top Surgery, and perhaps other procedures all qualify. Someone who would but can’t (excuses need not apply) are often referred to as TS because the discussion is identity-focused, here at least, but technically are not.

    I think there is a more nuanced conversation about social transition only, sans physical steps, but in my opinion doesn’t obviate cross-sexed identity, as some cross dressers socially transition and still identity as male.

    Kaitlyn - very funny!
    Last edited by LeaP; 05-14-2019 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Clarity in 2nd paragraph. Spelling.
    I am older than I once was,
    And younger than I'll be. ...
    After changes upon changes
    We are more or less the same;
    After changes we are more or less the same.

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