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Thread: What is a Transsexual???

  1. #26
    Senior Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Is that "definition" your opinion, Lea, or do you have reference that should be cited?

  2. #27
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    Opinion. It speaks to the physical cross-over, the “trans” in “transsexual.”

    The term is showing its age. It originates in a time when sex and gender were not clearly distinguished. Most definitions (not that there are any that are absolute or final) speak primarily to identity, but nonetheless often stress wanting, or wanting to change to the sexual characteristics of the opposite sex.

    So why my version? First, it’s not unique - I have read other similar. But the real reason is that times have changed and these days fantasy often rules. “If I only could ...” “I’d transition in a heartbeat if ...” Blah, blah, blah.
    Last edited by LeaP; 05-14-2019 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Additional color.
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  3. #28
    Senior Member Devi SM's Avatar
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    I agree with Kat.
    I think some people ignores, forget the struggles most of us have in our lives swimming against the moral established parameters or rules and looking for answers come here looking support, answers, acceptance but sometimes just receive just rejection like it were a contest a iut who knows more or who can really be a trans.
    I personally believe that for some people the dysphoria is bigger that push them to look for an exit or solution. I know that some trans never experienced dysphoria (which is weird for me) and for them everything has been easy and finally as I said, there's not enough research to give es a diagnostic on the reasons but for me gender dysphoria is a common symptom on all of us.
    If a health professional has ever felt, can't understand it to develop a definition and just trans peoe could do it but we all are so subjective to understand the others reasons.
    My finale call is to believe what others say and just love them. Time will show who is who.
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  4. #29
    Senior Member KellyJameson's Avatar
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    Opinion.....

    We use words to discover truth but the tool of words risks treating falsehoods as truths.

    The truth of ones personal identity is experienced as a knowing. This knowing is experienced and is the result of a series of epiphanies through the insights acquired by the effort exerted in the attempt to understand the disease one suffers from.

    The knowing is the end result of that which precedes it. An epiphany is physically felt as a result of the mind (Conscious) and brain (Subconscious) coming together as one. It creates a type of seamlessness without contradiction in the mind.

    It eliminates the dissonance of treating a false identity as real and a real identity as false.

    If this experience is missing than there is no movement and without movement there is the pain of gender dysphoria without recognition of that which is causing the suffering created by the conflict of the very thing that is creating the gender dysphoria.

    The movement is from illness to health.

    A transsexual is not someone who suffers from gender dysphoria but someone who knows that they suffer from gender dysphoria. I was transsexual because I suffered from gender dysphoria and " KNOW/KNEW IT". The "Knowing" carries all the implications of knowing. (fully conscious of the truth of identity and the consequences of not living it)

    The disease of gender dysphoria is not the patient. The patient is the person in relation to the disease. They are not defined by the disease but they do have a relationship with it. In the absence of this relationship a person is not transsexual because even though they suffer from the disease of gender dysphoria they do not know what the disease is that they suffer from. The lack of understanding is also the lack of conscious awareness of ones identity which remains in the subconscious exerting its will and punishing the self for not acknowledging it. (Split personality) (Fractured identity)

    They stop being a transsexual once the disease is cured.

    A transsexual is not a person but a state of being.

    It is in my opinion very dangerous to treat the disease as the person. Many cancer survivors understand this.

    There is the state of being Transsexual but there is no such thing as a person who is a Transsexual. That would be the same as saying Suzy is Cancer because she suffers from Cancer.

    Treating human beings as if they are the disease inflicts unnecessary suffering on those who suffer from the disease.

    It is in my opinion "Immoral"

    Those who do not understand this do not/ did not suffer from the disease of gender dysphoria and knew/know it.

    They do not know the state of being Transsexual because they do not/did not experience it.
    Last edited by KellyJameson; 05-14-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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  5. #30
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    I both agree and disagree with you, Kelly J. I acknowledge the gist of your statements on knowing, that it is the critical pivot for real understanding. On the other hand, you’re trying to have it both ways with your use of “transsexual” in that your comment on it being a state of being seems to undermine your denial of it as an identity.

    In any event, I agree that it is NOT, or should not be an identity. But transsexuality is not something that disappears when dysphoria is done away, either (and not all suffer from dysphoria anyway). If you accept my view that a transsexual is someone who has actually done something to align the physical with gender self-perception then the term is simply a narrow description of one aspect of their physicality. A MTF transsexual still has a male body, conventionally (chromosomally) construed anyway.

    Finally, the medical perspective is one of many, all of which are descriptive and none of which are identities unless the individual decides to make them so.

    The use of the definite article is a convenience for many and doesn’t in itself make the term an identity. I say “I am A transsexual” with the full understanding that I’m using a convention to express a lot of overloaded concepts, typically to people who dimly understand the barest elements of any of it. If further conversation turns on identity, I can clarify. If it turns to physicality, I can specify the details. Or I can present another perspective entirely: religious, philosophical, metaphysical, legal, sociological, etc. None of them limit me but any or all can help others understand me. I adjust the terms and details to the audience.

    I use “female” as my gender identity with the clarification of “cross-sexed” when it seems appropriate. I never describe myself as a woman as I feel THAT is an overloaded term with its own issues. I may describe myself physically as male when the (typically medical) circumstances call for it. I have NEVER referred to myself as a man, however, oddly enough even before the dysphoria hit the fan and the knowing to which you refer began.

    I also use “cross-sexed” these days to describe the basic condition. From what I understand of the science, such as it is, those of us (MTF) blessed with cross-sexed identity are neurologically only partially female, so even “female” is a perspective in some ways, being as much of an alignment as anything else. What’s left - “I am”? Or is that presumptuous?
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  6. #31
    Member Sara Olivia's Avatar
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    I so agree with Kelly's opinion and especially the statement that "A transsexual is not a person but a state of being". I also firmly agree with something that Mirya recently posted on a different thread. She states that "You can't become a woman. You can't change your gender. Either you already are a woman, or you're not! Your gender identity was set at birth and firmly established as a toddler. Now, what you can do, is you can change your life to live as a woman, or to live as a man. But you cannot change who you are. You cannot change your identity." In other words after birth at some point our consciousness innately tells us that we identify in a certain manner - personally for me that was as a woman. My physical reality, however, was that I was born in the body of a male. My state of being at that time was transsexual because my body and innate gender identity were at odds and I was definitely feeling the full force of a condition, or a disease if you prefer, we formally call gender dysphoria. Now that I have socially transitioned and am in the process of medically transitioning to female, my physical being and my innate gender identity are no longer at odds. Its true that I will never achieve being able to change my body in every way to being female but I am able to change enough that I no longer feel the effects of gender dysphoria and I now live my life in social society as the gender that I innately identify as. Hence I prefer (and its a personal decision for everyone) to no longer identify as transgender or transsexual because my body is now aligned with the gender that I identify with. Simply put I now identify as a woman.

  7. #32
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Saying your transsexuality disappears seems like a political statement.

    I get that the feeling of transsexuality disappears... and maybe all could agree that therefore transsexuality disappears if your context is that we all self identify and no one has any right at all to disagree with that..

    my feeling of gender dysphoria disappeared... I completely transitioned, I pass and I live my life... but honestly I still feel like a transsexual.... perhaps that's my own shame or feelings of confusion...I don't really worry about it too much except to be willing to share with people

    what does that mean?? I really don't care that much.
    I am real

  8. #33
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    This is just my unpopular opinion and is based on only my (and my CIS friends) opinions.



    If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government id’s....yes they are TS



    Same as above but to repeat....If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government Id’s.... yes they are TS




    No


    So that may bring you to ask what do i call a post op?

    Wait for it....

    A man or a woman, depending on their sex....
    This would seem to imply that transgender is a choice, as one can’t be transgender without taking positive action. I would say that people are born trans. So for example, a child facing puberty realizes their birth gender doesn’t really match. What you are saying is that this child isn’t trans until after they’ve started living as a girl and changed their name? Then what were they before? Did we MAKE them trans by allowing them to live as the opposite gender?

  9. #34
    Senior Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government id’s....yes they are TS
    And what would call those of us who have not yet met the requirements of your arbitrary definition? Why are you so disinclined to use the conventional definition? You know, the one that virtually everyone else agrees on and relies to prevent misunderstanding.

  10. #35
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    and KellyJ says thats not a ts that's a woman.

    and Lea says its complicated

    and I say, whatever...

    Opinions and labels......gotta love em
    I am real

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    Saying your transsexuality disappears seems like a political statement.
    It does - and that’s an interesting way of putting it.


    I really don't care that much.
    From any practical standpoint, neither do I. I do like language to be descriptive, though, and the semantics problem just drives me batty.

    Kat, I’m sorry that you had a hard time, but as long as all this is handled in our culture as a medical, psychological, insurance, legal, and - heaven help us - political issue, the terms and their meaning matter a great deal. Indeed, they are sometimes life and death, especially for the most fragile you mention. The alternative is what has always happened in the past, which is that someone else defines us, and it’s usually hostile.
    I am older than I once was,
    And younger than I'll be. ...
    After changes upon changes
    We are more or less the same;
    After changes we are more or less the same.

  12. #37
    Senior Member KellyJameson's Avatar
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    Hi Lea

    Transsexual may be treated as an identity but it is not a gender identity.

    There are identities that are done to us (assigned) and identities we do to ourselves (adopted)

    The state of being transsexual is a transient state for those who want to transition to the degree they need and are able to transition.

    For me it was a bridge to cross from GD to no GD. It was a movement from illness too health.

    Anyone who spends time associating with Trans people realizes there are a multitude of motives for adopting the label Trans and changing appearance that has nothing to do with gender identity. A cross dresser can identify as trans. A gender fluid person can identify as trans.

    A trans identity has become that which is not binary (Non-binary). I'm first and foremost committed to the binary and from that place I am perfectly willing to experiment with being gender fluid.

    For me it was purely about mental health. I did not nor do I need a audience to experience my gender. I do not need confirmation and would never give the power of possessing my identity to another. That would be a repeat of the conditions I experienced previously when my gender was defined by others.

    For me to hold onto the label Transsexual in relation to the self is to stay "Untransitioned" To not have crossed the bridge that corrects misalignment.

    When I stand naked in front of a mirror and observe my reflection I experience confirmation of my innate gender identity that I have carried all my life. This confirmation is only a confirmation of a truth I already knew. I had the knowing before transitioning. I would not have transitioned without that knowing. Confirmation is wonderful but knowing is critical.

    It is not possible to use "confirmation" to acquire "Knowing". This would always leave the power "To Be" ones gender in the hands of another. The audience than decides the individuals gender identity.

    It is not a problem for people who are not misaligned to have the audience assign their gender because they are "as individuals" in agreement with the audience as to the reality of their being.

    I believe in the binary of sex as male and female and from this solid foundation a person can than be gender fluid (Non binary).

    Being gender fluid is a privilege afforded to those who do not have to be OR it is assigned by the self (usually as a compromise and acceptance of circumstances) so is a adopted identity.

    For a person born misaligned, being non binary is what they are born into. They are assigned this by birth so lose the privilege of being able to be non binary by choice. (adopted)
    Last edited by KellyJameson; 05-15-2019 at 06:50 PM.
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  13. #38
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    Kelly, we are 90% radically agreed. Close enough.
    I am older than I once was,
    And younger than I'll be. ...
    After changes upon changes
    We are more or less the same;
    After changes we are more or less the same.

  14. #39
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    Lots of people being boxed in and defined by other's opinions. "If you label me you negate me" I think Kierkegaard was right on here. The more hyperbole used to explain our being, the less value we seem to have as individuals. I did not "transition" to be a "transsexual". Rather I did it to correct societies perception of who I am and how that dynamic is played out every single day. I am now accepted universally as the woman I always knew myself to be. "A rose by an other name".

  15. #40
    Member KatrinaK's Avatar
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    I think you should all read "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serrano

    https://www.amazon.com/Whipping-Girl.../dp/1580056229

    XO,
    Kat

  16. #41
    Member Sara Olivia's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Kaitlyn Michelle
    Saying your transsexuality disappears seems like a political statement.
    I respectfully disagree. How others identify me is up to them. That I self identify as a woman, and always have, is my right just as it is your right to identify as a transgender woman if that is how you feel. I don't care for labels, or more accurately - I don't like people being labelled. I am not a political person, I live my own life and keep my opinions to myself with the exception that I sometimes share them on this forum when a topic is of interest to me and I have an opinion to share. So when I share with this forum that I personally do not self identify as a transgender woman but as a woman, then I am sharing an opinion and not making a political statement.
    Last edited by Sara Olivia; 05-16-2019 at 09:15 PM.

  17. #42
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    I hear you...that makes sense
    I am real

  18. #43
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    I read Whipping Girl 10 years ago and have re-read a couple of times since, in addition to reading Julia’s blog here and there. Is there something you’d like to cite?
    I am older than I once was,
    And younger than I'll be. ...
    After changes upon changes
    We are more or less the same;
    After changes we are more or less the same.

  19. #44
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micki_Finn View Post
    This would seem to imply that transgender is a choice, as one can’t be transgender without taking positive action. I would say that people are born trans. So for example, a child facing puberty realizes their birth gender doesn’t really match. What you are saying is that this child isn’t trans until after they’ve started living as a girl and changed their name? Then what were they before? Did we MAKE them trans by allowing them to live as the opposite gender?
    Reading is imperative here... no where did i say TRANSGENDER, i am talking about transsexuals and people who transition from one sex to another. I’ve never said it was a choice, all i said is in my view a transsexual is a person who has made the leap legally from living as one gender to another and is preop...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Kelly View Post
    And what would call those of us who have not yet met the requirements of your arbitrary definition? Why are you so disinclined to use the conventional definition? You know, the one that virtually everyone else agrees on and relies to prevent misunderstanding.
    How am i creating misunderstanding? I work in the medical field and if i have a patient come to me that is presenting as a man, has male sexual organs, goes by male pronouns and has a male name? How is that confusing to not call him a transsexual as he Is not living as a woman.... he has not crossed the gender divide.

    Now same person shows up but presenting as a woman, has male sexual organs, goes by female pronouns and has a female name and ID than yes i will call her a transsexual as she has crossed from living one gender to another gender but has not changed her sex

    Now same person shows up presenting as a woman, has had GRS and has female looking sexual organs (remember there are still male parts in you such as prostate gland), has female name and is living as a woman... i call her a woman.

    You can scream to the heavens all you want that labels are for whatever but in my world they are important as if someone else reads my nursing notes down the road they need to understand with zero confusion.

  20. #45
    Senior Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    You have not answered my question, Megan. We aren't talking about genetics, or surgical procedures, but I should point out that your choice of terms is medically unsound. Proper care demands a more nuanced approach the the checking of a single box.

    Again, why do you not use the the definition that virtually all academics and professionals use to describe those who suffer from profound gender dysphoria? Put more plainly still, why do you insist that one is not transsexual until they have met your arbitrary definition of the term?
    Well, somebody has to make up that base of the bell curve that defines "normal".
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  21. #46
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    To George Sand: A Recognition by Elizabeth Barrett Browning

    TRUE genius, but true woman ! dost deny
    The woman's nature with a manly scorn
    And break away the gauds and armlets worn
    By weaker women in captivity?
    Ah, vain denial ! that revolted cry
    Is sobbed in by a woman's voice forlorn, _
    Thy woman's hair, my sister, all unshorn
    Floats back dishevelled strength in agony
    Disproving thy man's name: and while before
    The world thou burnest in a poet-fire,
    We see thy woman-heart beat evermore
    Through the large flame. Beat purer, heart, and higher,
    Till God unsex thee on the heavenly shore
    Where unincarnate spirits purely aspire !


    Well there ya go ... all I can add is I know one when I hear one.
    I am older than I once was,
    And younger than I'll be. ...
    After changes upon changes
    We are more or less the same;
    After changes we are more or less the same.

  22. #47
    Resident Polymath MarinaTwelve200's Avatar
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    Well, if there are conflicting meanings floating about, Take the "Scientific Paper" approach----Always DEFINE what YOU mean by "Transsexual" at the beginning of the conversation or posting.----That way the participants are ALL "on the same page", so to speak and can have a productive discussion. Nothing but misunderstandings and confusion ensue when different persons use a different definition of terms---and fail to tell the others involved. I have seen the term "Transsexual" used for BOTH pre and post op persons with Gender dysphoria ----

  23. #48
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    Eh, most scientific and research papers use the term “transsexual” without defining it. In my reading experience, though, the context is usually post-ops and/or individuals on cross-sex hormones.

    Here’s some interesting cites from the UK’s Equality and Human Rights Commission (cites are from https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...scrimination):

    In 2016 a Women and Equalities Committee report ... [recommended] ... that the use of the terms ‘gender reassignment’ and ‘transsexual’ in the Equality Act 2010 are outdated and misleading ...
    I made the point about the dated nature of “transsexual” in an earlier response. I’ll add here to state directly that this is part of the problem. The UK commission regards “trans” as the better term, but personally, I don’t find it much better. (Though I use it myself.)

    In the comments on Gender Reassignment Discrimination, the following clarifications are made (emphases mine):

    The Equality Act 2010 says that you must not be discriminated against because you are transsexual, when your gender identity is different from the gender assigned to you when you were born.
    [note - it’s important to understand that the context here is BINARY gender. The site makes this clarification elsewhere.]

    FURTHER, that:

    All transsexual people share the common characteristic of gender reassignment.
    ... But not as a fait accompli:

    To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender.
    ! So what does this all mean? One final clarification nails it:

    The Equality Act says that you must not be discriminated against because:

    of your gender reassignment as a transsexual. You may prefer the description transgender person or trans male or female. A wide range of people are included in the terms ‘trans’ or ‘transgender’ but you are not protected as transgender unless you propose to change your gender or have done so.
    All very interesting. Clarifying, too. That is, as long as you are a UK citizen and need to deal with a legally covered discrimination issue and, by the way, have a Gender Recognition Certificate (certified transsexuals!). You’re SOL anywhere else or in other circumstances.

    If I get around to it, I’ll parse through the WPATH’s interesting distinctions between transsexuals vs transgender and gender non-conforming people. It’s a tortured read. Here’s a hint, though: All three terms are used together (i.e., as a sort of umbrella class) in the current care standard over 100 times. Transsexual is used alone in only a handful of cases.

    There’s an interesting thread of terminology history through the revisions of the DSM, too, particularly if you read through the accompanying notes and not just the diagnoses criteria.
    Last edited by LeaP; 05-18-2019 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Added a clarification on gender identity
    I am older than I once was,
    And younger than I'll be. ...
    After changes upon changes
    We are more or less the same;
    After changes we are more or less the same.

  24. #49
    Ah-May-Lee
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    From reading the responses one can see why the general public has difficulty understanding gender issues.

    I'm kinda glad I live alone and away from other trans people. Don't have to worry what to call myself.

    But it is interesting reading the responses.

    As for the question. Who is a transsexual. In my day the transsexual was the ones walking the streets in the meat packing district and the born girls were walking the streets a few blocks north.
    Last edited by Amelie; 05-19-2019 at 06:22 AM.
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  25. #50
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    sounds like you've been to Lee's Mardi Gras....
    I am real

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