Finally the real deal !!

[Teresa]

Some may or may not know about the statemant made from Martina Navratilova concerning the rights of transgender in sport to compete in their new assigned gender , she claims it was an unfair advantage . She has represented the LGBTQ cause for many years but they now disassociate her from the group .

The BBC presented a program last night fronted by Martina to discover what really lies behind the transgender story .

I have to say this is the first program I've seen where the transgender community were shown in the RW trying to fit in with society and compete on equal terms . There was no discrimination, the proram used the TG label across the board whether the person in question had transitioned or on hormones or not , also the transsexual label was never mentioned . It was so good not to see people playing up to the camera they wanted to tell their stories and the difficulties they were having in the RW .

At one point Martina herself admitted it's far easier coming out as gay than to come out as TG .

For many sports the problem is the testosterone level , performance is very much related to that . It was good to see Loughborough University putting so much research into this subject , they realise the TG question is growing not diminishing, they have to find ways to level the playing field . The thoughts that the IOC have made the wrong decision did arise . In some sports I wonder if a handicap system could work , the figure worked out on T levels and an increasing time penalty added depending on the T level , the thoughts are mixed sports are more liekly to happen so this could be one solution.
A golfer was featured , she competes on the male circuit but would prefer to compete on the female circuit . In top flight golf a man is bound to out drive a female but there again it could be offset by placing their tee offs further back . An interesting example was a racing driver who may be the first to compete in the Le Mans 24 hr race , she actully claims she performs better now she's resolved her dysphoria . It was also great to see a football team totally trans friendly .

Maratina heself came over as a very caring and sensitve person , determined to put her mistake right , I hope she can .

The one aspect that may also have to be resolved is the purse size , a male sportsman still earms far more in most sporting activites than women

From a personal perspective art is self levelling we compete on equal terms especially when the exhibitions come round , it is an ideal situation for me, art being more important than gender and having now met my group as Teresa I know it can work , I gained a great deal of strength from this televised program , I hope they continue to make programs like this one .

[Kelly DeWinter]

This is probably the most defining statement regarding our community.

" ..it's far easier coming out as gay than to come out as TG ". It speaks volumes to the disconnect between society as a whole and any minority community.

In public being Gay is for the most part looked upon as " Oh Ok I get it , not for me but whatever"

I don't look for, want or care whether anyone else get's it or not. I just want to be ignored.

[Teresa]

Kelly,
I guess the bottom line is the visual impact of being TG , I'm sure that was the point Martina was making , a gay person can remain in the closet whereas a TG has to take on the RW visually and be aware they are making a gender statement .

[Micki_Finn]

Good post but when it comes to sports, things get tricky and a “handicap” system isn’t necessarily fair to all. For example there was an Olympic athlete who was competing as a woman, but if I remember she was stripped of her medal because it was discovered that she was a form of intersex and her body naturally produced more testosterone. Should she be handicapped because her natural birth body is naturally more athletic than others?

[Robertacd]

As for the sports I feel it is appropriate to require transgender athletes to have to have similar hormone levels as the gender they wish to compete against.

Exception given in cases of naturally occurring hormone levels, like GG's with naturally high testosterone competing against other GG's.

[Teresa]

Micki,
That came up in the program , I'm not sure how you can catch up with it can you access it through " Iplayer " on the internet .

It does appear unfairr on that athelete but at least she could compete with a handicap system . It might be interesting if the researchers at Loughborough University tried a test race using a handicap system . Open athletics might be very watchable as other sports could be , the system could even be trialled in swimming events .

Roberta ,
That's how this whole debate kicked off with Matina's statement . A lawyer pointed out that atheletes do have human rights and sports bodies can't afford to ignore them .

[Asew]

There is no easy solution for TG athletes. It is the same for intersex female stories. I remember reading about high school female that was obliterating the competition. Not sure if it was during high school or college that they found out she was intersex and was producing way more testosterone than a normal GG. She and her family had no idea she was intersex. But afterwards they wanted her to compete against men due to her testosterone levels. Basically they have to have to make a call on what is a female athlete in the effort of fairness. And whether it be anatomy, testosterone levels or some other factor, there are going to be people unhappy with the decision (and not every athletic organization is going to pick the same factor/level either).

It sucks we even have to have gendered divisions in sports, but at certain things testosterone is definitely a huge factor. Look at the 100m sprint, 141 men have broken under 10 seconds and the women's world record is 10.49 seconds. But one of the cool things about ultra marathons (running races that are over 26 miles / 42 km), is that the longer the race the smaller the difference between genders with women winning overall over men in 100 and 200 mile distances.

That is why I am glad I am a recreational runner and not subject to such scrutiny.

[AllieSF]

The concept of handicapping sounds interesting when first said. However, how you set up a fair handicapping system is very complicated. A MtF woman can be on hormones and be tested right after starting hormones and have a higher testosterone level, i.e. potentially more strength, speed, etc., then when the race comes around later, she may have a much lower testosterone and her strength levels may go down. Then, there is another very similar person where they do not. They more complicated the system, the more issues of making them fair to all arises. Sometimes a simple system, less details, exceptions, eetc. is fairer to all in that there is less controversy and hopefully only occasional true mis-matches or unfair (??) advantages. I believe that many sports organizations are looking into to these issues as well as some universities too. I know too little to say what is fair. All this needs to be worked out in the future and then tested and modified as necessary.

Regarding the program that you saw, I think that is wonderful to get serious discussions about serious issues on our side of humanity affecting all of us here, especially when it included well known and respected people.

[Robertacd]

I get the whole gender controversy, specially here. But as much as we all don't want to admit it...

There are phisical differences between GM's and GG's and sports are phisical competitions.

So they are going to have to draw a line someplace to separate who can compete against whom.

That leaves us with three choices.
Genes
Genitals
Hormone levels

Let's count our blessings they are so far only looking at hormones.

[Rachael Leigh]

No question this will become a great debate with sports competition. It will most likely come down to a test to determine if
the athlete has a certain level of hormones that each sporting body will have to determine if that person is allowed to compete. Here in Texas there was a trans Highschool wrestler F t M who was forced by state rules to compete with the girls
even though he was already on T. Well you can imagine what happened he won every match. So tell me how that’s fair.
I do think the playing field should be level but I guess time will tell

[Teresa]

Allie,
Another aspect of a handicap system is that those competeting might want to reduce their T levels to lose the handcap .

One point I missed in my OP was Martina went through some tests at Loughborough University , she actually showed her disappointment at her low T level ( 0.69 as I recall ) in comparison a top male athelete can be up in the 30-40 range . She recalled playing competetive tennis against Dr. Richards and admitting how hard it was even when she hadn't bothered to train or work on her fitness and that was after she'd fully transitioned .

I totally agree with your last paragraph and that was the point I made at the start of my OP , we see too little of TGs in the RW and more importantly being taken seriously , we are real people wanting to live real lives .

[Gillian Gigs]

Golfing in Canada already has two separate tee positions for male and females. Is this not true at most golf courses? There, is the handicap... Then you have the whole issue of steroids, and not being allowed in competitions. So some competitors go on steroids in early training and stop to clean out their system before competing. There is no level playing surface, so what makes it any different for TG's, before or after transition!

On a side note, it was asked of Olympic competitors several years ago this question. If you could take an undetectable drug that would guarantee you the gold metal, but you would to dead within five years, would you take the drug? The vast majority said yes! This shows how much they want the win.

[Teresa]

Gillian ,
I'm assuming that applies to men and women , I guess they devote their whole life to attain the highest level to most it's an obvious answer .

Usually on most resonable golf courses there are three tee off points , male, female and competition . I always feel the women come off the worse as their view of the course is often blocked because their teeing off ground is set lower down .

[Sometimes Steffi]

Good post but when it comes to sports, things get tricky and a “handicap” system isn’t necessarily fair to all. For example there was an Olympic athlete who was competing as a woman, but if I remember she was stripped of her medal because it was discovered that she was a form of intersex and her body naturally produced more testosterone. Should she be handicapped because her natural birth body is naturally more athletic than others?

If it's the woman I'm thinking about, she was actually XY with extreme [my words] androgen insensitivity. Even though her chromosomes were male (XY), she looked physically like a woman, even close up and naked. Her external sex characteristics were clearly female. She may have had a very high T level because her body wasn't reacting to the T the body was producing. On the other hand, her body wasn't reacting to the T, making her more of a woman.

Androgen insensitivity syndrome is a condition that affects sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell. Because their bodies are unable to respond to certain male sex hormones (called androgens), they may have mostly female external sex characteristics or signs of both male and female sexual development.

Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome occurs when the body cannot use androgens at all. People with this form of the condition have the external sex characteristics of females, but do not have a uterus and therefore do not menstruate and are unable to conceive a child (infertile). They are typically raised as females and have a female gender identity. Affected individuals have male internal sex organs (testes) that are undescended, which means they are abnormally located in the pelvis or abdomen. Undescended testes have a small chance of becoming cancerous later in life if they are not surgically removed. People with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome also have sparse or absent hair in the pubic area and under the arms.


https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/an...ivity-syndrome

So, men's or women's sports

As for the sports I feel it is appropriate to require transgender athletes to have to have similar hormone levels as the gender they wish to compete against.

Exception given in cases of naturally occurring hormone levels, like GG's with naturally high testosterone competing against other GG's.

So, where do you draw the line? Male swimmers with larger lung capacity than other men?

[Robertacd]

Genetic male competing against genetic males?? I thought we were talking about trans athlete competing against cis athletes?

But like in the case of the African(?) woman with the naturally occurring high testosterone level, I believe the decision was wrong to strip her of her medals and require her to take a t-blocker.

But in the case of a transwoman competing against genetic women the governing body can require her to submit to hormone testing and have an average genetic woman hormone levels to compete.

Frankly this goes for transmen competing against genetic men too

[GretchenM]

I sure hope that show with Martina will bounce over to this side of the pond. It would certainly be helpful to expand a bit of understanding.

T has had a bad rap as being the hormone that makes men mean. It doesn't, except that it makes mean men meaner. T is like a turbo charger. It boosts the more normal behaviors present in a person. Bad behavior becomes worse; good behavior becomes better. In sports it is a big factor in ability where strength is required. In my view, we are making too big of a deal about keeping things equal. Athletes should be treated as humans and include the variability in their ability as a natural asset. If one person has more T than another, well that is just the way it is. It is not the total story because skill can overcome the effects of T in giving someone an advantage. Besides that, not everyone is equal in their response to hormones. The hormones have no effect if the person has no receptors where the hormone can attach and work its magic. Thus high T with few receptors is equal to low T by itself. Problem is there is no way to measure how many receptors a person has except to get an estimate from the way they perform. In my opinion, this is a case of people focusing on one factor producing a performance boost when in fact that one factor by itself does not necessarily boost performance if other factors actually pull the total result down.

Thanks Teresa for relating the contents of that show. Again, I would love to see it. When athletes get in the fray of performance levels with different gender influences things tend to take on a completely different and much more honest view showing that gender (sex) sometimes is not the only criteria for dividing the pie. People begin to see that whether you are gay to TG or whatever, you are still a human capable of competing against "normal" people and sometimes your disadvantages cancel out your advantages making you completely equivalent to everyone else. Sometimes that doesn't happen and there is a real advantage. The main point is that TG folks are humans and sports are about humans competing against each other as total package humans. That can allow for inclusiveness and recognition of equality in the larger social picture.

At least that is my two cents worth. Some people are just better than other people at some things. All people were created equal, but not all people were created identical. That is two scales that really can't be blended because we are all different.

[RachelPortugal]

In the Paralympics, competitors are classified by their type and degree of disability. Amputees do no sprint in the same event as blind runners. In athletics, each track event has a T number and field events have an F number, there are different degrees of visual impairment, physical impairment and intellectual impairment to level the playing field, so to speak.

Running and jumping (16 classes)

T11-13 (Visual impairment)

T20 (Intellectual impairment)

T35-38 (Co-ordination impairments)

T40-41 (Short stature)

T42-44 (Lower limb affected by limb deficiency, leg length difference, impaired muscle power or impaired range of movement)

T45-47 (Upper limbs affected by limb deficiency, impaired muscle power or impaired range of movement)

Wheelchair racing (7 classes)

T32-34 (Co-ordination impairments)

T51-54 (Limb deficiency, leg length difference, impaired muscle power or impaired range of movement)

Standing throws (15 classes)

F11-13 (Visual impairment)

F20 (Intellectual impairment)

F35-38 (Co-ordination impairments)

F40-41 (Short stature)

F42-44 (Lower limb affected by limb deficiency, leg length difference, impaired muscle power or impaired range of movement)

F45-46 (Upper limb/s affected by limb deficiency, impaired muscle power or impaired range of movement)

Seated throws (11 classes)

F31-34 (Coordination impairments)

F51-57 (Limb deficiency, leg length difference, impaired muscle power or impaired range of movement)


So, why cannot similar classifications be used in respect of testosterone levels for able bodied athletes?

[Teresa]

Gretchen,
You raise some interesting points , I'm sure we can all think back when we played sport at a more comptitve level , sometimes we just had a bad day , maybe that was connected with a blip in our T levels . Lung capacity , length of limbs , muscle structure were all mentioned but as you say how come much smaller atheletes can often beat larger ones , basic power - weight I guess and in some sports experience wins over inexperience , in opter words knowing when and how to conserve energy .

The more I think about the more I'm convinced a handicap system could work in many sports . If the levels are checked before the event the event display board could clearly show how much time each competitor has been handicapped by , it could lead to very watchable competitive mixed events . If we could find more ways of holding mixed events , the whole question of TG competitors could fade away .

Gretchen ,
One question , is it possible for viewers in the US to sign up to the BBC I player on the internet .

[reb.femme]

I'm with you there Kelly. I just want the world to ignore me, as it does when I'm male.