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Thread: Results of 15 Years of Research on "Passing"

  1. #26
    Dana Matthews danam's Avatar
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    Sorry, those are acronyms from 10+ years ago when I was originally very active on this site. GF to me mean genetic female, GM means (you got it!) genetic male. I guess there's a new acronym floating around, which is GF meaning gender fluid. Sorry for the confusion. I mean Genetic Female.
    Been around for a while, been away for a while. On the verge of coming back...Help me!

  2. #27
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    Dana,
    Great post and it generated lots of wonderful responses. But I think passing and blending are very different things. Are those differences important? I don't really think so and that is because I pose the question of what does it take for a woman to pass? The point is that perhaps passing is some idealistic image of what a woman looks like. I have seen some women, middle aged and older, that I have to look at for awhile to tell what sex they are. And the same goes for some men, especially younger men. To me, passing is the ideal to shoot for but blending is the practical goal. Among the TS folks I know, only one fully passes and she admits it took over $100,000 to reach that state. Heather's behavior is fully feminine and her looks follows suit. But she admits that she has two tells - sneeze and cough. Very masculine. She has never found a way to change those. The other person, Sylvia, transitioned 50 years ago and now in her late 60's looks like a lot of other women in their 60's, i.e., a bit masculine. For the GG's it is a loss of female hormone support; for Sylvia it is induced female hormone support and more than a little practice.

    I think what you have found and what the others have added and commented are all really good thoughts and are applicable almost universally. But I also think passing is some kind of ideal that is really difficult to define and may not really be definable in a universal sense. So, I think the rule should be - Do the best you can, keep your personal ideal in mind, shoot for it, but accept that it is likely you will never achieve it simply because you have an X and a Y chromosome and they have two Xs. You are male and they are female. That sets a boundary that is impossible to cross. But as Heather showed you can come awful close. Sylvia though is a more practical solution. Both are beautiful and acceptably women.

  3. #28
    Exploring NEPA now Cheryl T's Avatar
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    I must disagree with rule 2.

    Dress appropriate for your Perceived Age. When I don my favorite wig and makeup my face to go out, my wife tells me I look late 40's. I LOVE that but I'm far from it.
    I dress as I am late 40's since that's how I appear. I'm certainly not going to dress late 60's as I am. I'm not ready for the Assisted Living home just yet and hope I never get there.
    Can you see the REAL Me?

  4. #29
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Danam,
    I now see it as integrating into society , I do agree with your basic thoughts . On the whole if you show enough female markers or telltales you will be accepted more as a female than a male and try and use some common sense .

    To say we pass poses the question , "What as ?" Which is the point Gretchen picks up , does passing mean to attain the status of a perfect woman ? Never going to happen !

    All most of us can do is find a balance that we're confident with and hope most people will accept it , that's what passing possibly means to most .
    The real me ,no going back.

  5. #30
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    Hi, I want to talk about number 3 for a moment.

    When I was a detective, oh so many years ago, I really sucked at stake outs. "I" thought I was inconspicuous. Then one day while I was out shopping at a local mall, a guy walked up to me and told me he "Knew" I was watching him and that I was a cop. The truth was he was totally not on my radar until that moment. I mentioned it to my partner who laughed and then showed me some tapes made of some of our work. I had to admit I stood out...just as much as the criminals.

    Criminals give themselves away by paying attention to those around them instead of their environment. Meaning that if they are in a shoe store they spend more time looking at people than shoes. If in a neighborhood they are casing they spend time looking at homes, doors, windows, ect than just walking down the street with a blank look on thier face.

    And I, well I guess I spent more time looking at people than whatever was infront of me.

    So, yes, by all means be confident and don't pay attention to the reactions of others, it is a dead giveaway.

    My bestie is 6-2 and a GG. She is busty with short blond hair. When I'm with her ( I'm 5-9) no one glances at me because the eyes are drawn to her. I'm nobodies homecoming queen, but I'm also not screaming "male". Not having an adams apple has also helped on a few occasions. I find that when I'm out with her I act like a woman with her bestie and since I'm totally natural in this..MOST people don't question my gender. I was also in a long term relationship with a man who is 6-6. Again the eye is drawn to him and I am the secondary target. I rarely get "made" when I am with him. No one thinks we are a gay couple. Lol, and neither of us feel that way either.

    However; when I go out with other CD's my pass rate falls dramatically. Usually to zero. I've seen GGs who were told they were CD's while in the company of CDs....(shrugs)

    Just my nickel

  6. #31
    Senior Member Tracy Irving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrobbysherry View Post
    I think u just described how to dress to blend and be noticed as little as possible.
    I agree.

    Most of the women that I see are not wearing dresses and skirts. For many of us our preferred attire. So, if putting on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt with really short sleeves doesn't do it for you, then find what makes you happy!

  7. #32
    Platinum Blonde member Ressie's Avatar
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    Then again, some of us don't want to pass or blend. Sometimes it's fun to wear something more outrageous or fashions incongruent with one's age. Break the rules and break free!
    "You're the only one to see the changes you take yourself through", Stevie Wonder

  8. #33
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    I have to agree with Tracy (#31). I may be stuck in a time machine and have not progressed out of the 1950's and 1960's. No way will I ever buy any sort of pants, jeans or shorts. Why wear a fashion stolen from the men's section of the store. It's dresses and only dresses for me. That does not mean I do not appreciate a nice looking womanly figure in a pair of jeans. If you really want to fly under the radar and not attract attention wear a pair of woman's jeans or pants with a plain top. My attention is drawn to a nicely attired woman wearing a dress. I like colors and patterns, especially floral patterns. At the mall or the business district downtown my attention is drawn to women in dresses. Costco after church is a great place to see women in their best Sunday dresses, and, some of them are getting somewhat above the knee. Not anywhere like "Little House of the Prairie."

    There's the problem. How does own express themselves when every warm blooded male wants to see a pair of nice legs and some other fines features of womanhood....in a dress. There is no reason to cross dress if my desires are not satisfied. I peruse Youtube a lot and elsewhere and see many many fine looking cross dressers wearing dresses. They are making no attempt to hide under the radar. The thing that will sink me is my six foot height and 200 pounds. I'm great as a male or so I am told. As a pseudo woman....not so much. I'm not going to pass or blend. I can wear age appropriate clothes, and, I do not mean old granny dresses, I will not pass or blend. Being six foot and 175 pounds with military toned muscle was great fifty years ago. Now it works against me. If I was five foot six I'd be in heavenly bliss. But, I would not compromise myself and hide in clothes that do not satisfy my inner self.

    If you want to have a nice experience I would suggest donning a pretty dress. Wear a decent wig if your hair cannot pass muster. Go light on the makeup. Shave really close. Grab a pair of transition sunglasses. Wear a hat to shield your face from the sun. Sit on a park bench and read a book..You will not have to worry too much about height to weight ratios unless you're like me. And, you will not have to worry about walking or mannerisms other than smoothing your dress when the breeze blows.
    Last edited by Stephanie47; 07-04-2019 at 01:58 AM. Reason: spelling

  9. #34
    AKA Lexi sometimes_miss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GretchenM View Post
    The point is that perhaps passing is some idealistic image of what a woman looks like.
    Nope, not many FAB women look anything like what an 'idealized' image of a woman looks like. But it's very clear to the world around them, that they are, indeed, FAB females, even if they're not what would be considered by most to be 'ideal'.

    I have seen some women, middle aged and older, that I have to look at for awhile to tell what sex they are.
    But that's just it; there's something about them that ticks off the 'what exactly am I seeing here' in our minds, and then the FAB questionable person eventually passes all the other clues, and gets identified as a FAB woman, while WE wind up failing one of those clues and get identified as the males that we actually are as well. That's not passing. OR blending. Even if we want to think it is; others know what we are. Even if you've been 'missed', or 'Yes, mam'ed, it will often just be a courtesy by someone who does not want to offend you, and obviously recognizes that you're trying to appear as a woman, and will then fake surprise when you tell them that you're not actually a woman, all to avoid hurting your feelings. And then you think that you pass.

    And of course, the best one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lydianne View Post
    Heh, passing?.. Go to your next door neighbour and ask for directions. That's passing.
    - Lydianne.
    Now THAT'S right on the money!
    Last edited by sometimes_miss; 07-03-2019 at 06:58 PM.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  10. #35
    Gold Member Rachael Leigh's Avatar
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    I will say yes I do try to blend as the age I am, 58, but you know what Iíve always felt like being tall I have nice legs so
    I enjoy wearing cute shorts and yes even short shorts. Now I usually wear them in an appropriate place like say washing my car but hey Iím not going to always conform to the age thing.

  11. #36
    Dana Matthews danam's Avatar
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    As for dressing your age--I think it's okay to break the rules, as long as you know the rules, and you've chosen to break them, and you understand the results of breaking the rules (i.e., drawing attention to yourself in ways that could cause ridicule or even compromise your safety).
    Been around for a while, been away for a while. On the verge of coming back...Help me!

  12. #37
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    Sorry but there are NO rules. You dress how you like and do not criticize others for dressing as they like. Oops! I guess there is one rule after all. If you have fear of others when going out, fear of recognition, introverted, whatever that causes you to try to stay in the background, to blend in, then your advice can work for some. However, for those that go out a lot, which is also a large part of this forum and the real world out there, that enjoy going out, we wear what we want when we want. We may later regret an outfit, but we didn't check with rule makers to get their OK. We are all adults. We have been learning from our mistakes all our life and will continue to do so. Really simple, no rules just good common sense. It usually is a matter of feeling comfortable and confident to be able to dress yourself as you deem, not by someone else's rules.

    If you want to say that your recommendation is that it is a good idea and a successful tactic that one dress to blend when starting to go out, I would agree with you. But I will discuss your choice of the word "rule" in this scenario.

  13. #38
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Danam,
    Dressing your age is a tough one and becomes trickier with age . I'm 68, on the whole I don't feel I dress for that age group but I know there are exceptions and yet I do get some lovely genuine comments . The problem with this is some women don't like their shape and it's not all to do with weight , some hate their bustline but most have a thing about their legs it's partly why many wear leggins and tunic tops , it also gives them the reason not to wear heels of any description . The times I've heard women say you're so lucky that can wear heels even my wedges and as Rachel says having good legs always gets picked up on again from the comments I know this to be true .

    Dressing to blend or integrate doesn't mean dressing to hide , OK you list it as rules but maybe could be reworded as appropriate , that takes a little time to learn but then women get caught out by finding they've misread the script and worn something not quite suitable , in those circumstances the " Rule " is knowing how to carry it off !
    The real me ,no going back.

  14. #39
    Aspiring Member Maid_Marion's Avatar
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    Then there are the practicalities of dressing. I love shopping in Kohls Juniors because their clothes fit me perfectly right off the rack!

    I thought about why.

    Their mature clothes is cut long. If you are short you will get them altered to fit. I could do that, but why waste my time if I can buy clothes that don't need alterations? Juniors clothes are cut to fit. Junior don't have issues with exposing skin these days if the clothes are a little short.

    Then there is the issue of age and gravity, which affect GGs a lot more than crossdressers.

  15. #40
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    Those rules are absolutely spot on if you are interested in blending in and not attracting undue attention to yourself. I can't say this enough: most people in the real world are so self-absorbed that they won't notice you unless you go out of your way to draw attention. Otherwise, wear what you want and own it. Want to wear an outfit meant for someone 25 years your junior? Love it. Want to look like a clown? Awesome. Want to emulate Beyonce by wearing a shimmery leotard and thigh high boots to the supermarket at 3pm? Perfect. Whatever makes you feel good about yourself is all that matters.

    [SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

    I can't edit my last post for some reason, so I'll add this: I have a clearly defined sense of what I can wear when I want to pass and what I can wear when I want to look trashy. But that's me and only me. I don't judge or criticize anyone ever for wearing what makes them feel good. Judgmental people are what get CDs and Transwomen beaten and murdered. Don't be one of them.

  16. #41
    Member Veronica4me's Avatar
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    Lydianne, you are so right! Another would be to walk past your roommates and out the front door and have them think Veronica was visiting me!! LOL
    Veronica

    Love who you are! You are uniquely you!!

  17. #42
    Aspiring Artist Kelly DeWinter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danam View Post
    As for dressing your age--I think it's okay to break the rules, as long as you know the rules, and you've chosen to break them, and you understand the results of breaking the rules (i.e., drawing attention to yourself in ways that could cause ridicule or even compromise your safety).
    I always find it interesting when people post "RULES FOR" passing, then post exceptions that imply it's your fault if it "causes ridicule and compromises your safety"

    When is it ever OK to ridicule someone or compromise their safety ?

    Dana I know that not what your intent is in your original post .

    The era we live in is one of breaking boundaries and being your own self.

    I also think that being realistic as things like finding the tie to pass and developing mannerisms on for most on a part time basis is almost impossible for most.

    As far as choices in clothes, be yourself, part of the allure for most crossdressers IS drawing attention to yourself.
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  18. #43
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    Something occurred to me.

    I'd love to say that I don't judge other girls. But I do. I don't SAY anything to them or anyone else, but in my own mind I do indeed judge.

    We have a girl in our group who from the neck down passes with ease. And passes so well that with a bit of make up AND A WIG, would probably not have any trouble at all. The problem is she is mostly bald with a few scraggly tufts of hair on top which she keeps to her shoulders. It is just so obviously the head of a man that it is, to me, embarrasing. Sure, she can do as she wants, and to each their own, ect ect. But she is always complaining about being read. And refuses to see that her hair is the problem.

    Another friend of mine dresses as a 70s hooker, complete with rabbit coat. She uses water balloons that are not remotely covered up by her bra or blouse. Again someone who is always going on about "why" no one takes her seriously as a woman.....

    If your goal is to draw attention, then fine...but if your goal is to just walk around shopping without teenage girls giggling behind you, then I think that yes, there are a few rules. Saying that there are no rules is self defeating, imho.

  19. #44
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Great Op Dana and i agree with the 3 rules generally... People get too caught up with definitions of the word passing or blending... some say no one passes, well yes to use the extreme example if you took your clothes off then yes no one would pass... I like to call it blending and to me that means walking past people who do not realise that you are not a 'normal woman'. If you are out and about and the vast majority of people do not pick you then to me you have successfully blended in or passed... just because a few people maybe see something and give a double take or realise does not mean you did not blend in generally.

    Being tall or walking in a very male manner does not automatically mean you cant blend or pass it just makes it harder to, there are lots of tall women and lots of women don't walk like typecast women are meant to
    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

  20. #45
    Silver Member Barbara Jo's Avatar
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    I would just add that you have to believe that you have every right to wear the female clothes that you are wearing.....you are just weaning clothes that any female wears..and not doing a thing out of the ordinary.
    In other words, don't think that you are male dressed as a woman but think of yourself as a women who is simply dressed like one.

    If you are nervous about it, people will notice and you will attract attention. Just go about you business... shopping etc... walking through town etc just as any woman would do.

    BTW, keep in mind that females are not all beauty queens and some do indeed look somewhat masculine and do not have an hour glass figure etc
    Personally, I have known some females with narrow hips and others with male sized hands.
    However no one thinks that they are not woman as they dress and act like woman.

    So, as long as you have a reasonably female shape and and face you can pass .
    Last edited by Barbara Jo; 07-08-2019 at 08:53 AM.
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  21. #46
    Senior Member Abbey11's Avatar
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    Great thread, thanks Danam, and great responses. I have to agree with Rhonda response #6, I was always looking at others for their reaction
    OMG!! Owning my femininity .... and I LOVE it!

  22. #47
    Dana Matthews danam's Avatar
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    Surprisingly civil conversation. I'd been away from this site for many years (after some bad experiences a long time ago), and I was curious at the types of reactions I would get from this post. I'm impressed. Since the act of "crossdressing" means wildly different things to different people, it is virtually impossible to engage in a tangible discussion without someone, somewhere taking offense. Again, I am impressed at the maturity of the responses from my thread. Thank you.
    Been around for a while, been away for a while. On the verge of coming back...Help me!

  23. #48
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Danam,
    Obvioulsy most of our replies , " Passed !"
    The real me ,no going back.

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